Next question - Leavened vs Unleavened

[HumbleMan]

I know that there is a significant history regarding the different traditions of the east v. west in regards to the host. What I was wondering (and I hope this won't cause debate or ill will) is what each traditions reasoning/theology behind whether to use leavened or unleavened bread.

Thanks!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We Lutherans, being "western" Christians use unleavened bread because we believe that at the institution of the Sacrament being Passover, that the bread our Lord used would have ben unleavened. That being said, we do recognize not only the validity of the Catholic Eucharist which, like us, use unleavened bread, but we also recognize the Orthodox Churches as having valid Eucharist as well, and in their tradition, it is leavened bread.

Short answer; it does not matter, tradition would be the determining factor, not efficacy.

 

[Standing Up]

I know that there is a significant history regarding the different traditions of the east v. west in regards to the host. What I was wondering (and I hope this won't cause debate or ill will) is what each traditions reasoning/theology behind whether to use leavened or unleavened bread.

Thanks!

Here is the reasoning.

RC uses the pascha timeline from the synoptics, while EO uses the pascha timeline from John's gospel. The synoptics have Jesus saying I desire to eat the Passover BEFORE crucifixion. John has Passover AFTER crucifixion (they wouldn't eat enter the Praetorium for fear of defilement because they hadn't eaten Passover.

The theology is EO views leavened bread as alive, symbolizing resurrection. RC views unleavened bread as dead, symbolizing the death, burial.

PS. In 1054, they did declare each other's offerings null and void. Depending on who you ask, this bread issue was the primary cause of the split. I would guess they have since recanted, but no idea when.

 

[HumbleMan]

Thank you. I have never delved deeply into the issue, as I've taken whatever happened to be in the plate when we do have it.

I guess, after reflecting on it recently, I view it in the context of Jesus saying this is my body, and earlier in scripture, He likened yeast to sin. Since He was sinless, there would be no yeast in the body (bread). But I also can see where the tradition of leavened bread comes from.

 

[Anhelyna]

Ahem !

Mark - the Eastern Catholic Churches, on the whole, use leavened bread [ I'm honestly unsure about the Maronites ]

 

[prodromos]

Rome used leavened bread just the same as Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch and Constantinople up until some time around the 800's.

Because our reasons for using leavened bread are theological (the bread used in the last supper is NOT the basis for what we use in the Eucharist), when Rome changed to unleavened bread, it was seen in the East as akin to changing theology, hence the strong reaction.

If you want references I can post some later.

 

[PaladinValer]

Unleavened bread is what would have been used at the Last Supper, thus tying the Sacrament to that event more closely.

Leavened bread also has theological merit: it emphasizes that Christ rose.

Both are perfectly valid and fine.

 

[Cappadocious]

I view it in the context of Jesus saying this is my body, and earlier in scripture, He likened yeast to sin.

The leaven of the pharisees is sin; however:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." -Matthew 13:33

 

[Cappadocious]

I know that there is a significant history regarding the different traditions of the east v. west in regards to the host. What I was wondering (and I hope this won't cause debate or ill will) is what each traditions reasoning/theology behind whether to use leavened or unleavened bread.

Why leavened bread:

1. It was the practice of the churches everywhere.

2. The Eucharist is not a memorial of the old passover, but the new passover which is the fulfillment of the old. Unleavened bread is of lamentation, and leavened bread is of celebration. For us, the Eucharist has the eschatalogical character of "gathered time," in which all of God's mighty acts and wonders, including the first passover, the incarnation, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, ascension, and second coming, are gathered together. This is what the word "symbol" means: Throwing together. This is related to the concepts of remembrance and recapitulation, where the recapitulation of mighty acts in the liturgy includes all of God's mighty acts.

So for us it would be improper to proclaim a "hard identity" between the circumstances of the last supper and the Eucharist as celebrated in the kingdom; whether the former was a passover meal or not.

3. As for why we do not use the later Roman Catholic style wafer, specifically, there might be concerns about, as the late Fr. Thomas Hopko put it, attempting to make the sacraments appear as disconnected from other objects of our experience, as sui generis, as possible.

 

[Cappadocious]

Both are perfectly valid

Describing the sacraments as valid or invalid is like describing a woman's purported beauty as symmetrical or asymmetrical.

 

[Standing Up]

c190ad Clement of Alexandria was using/teaching the use of unleavened bread at Pascha.

"... they inquired, “Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat the passover?”3805 It was on this day, then, that both the consecration of the unleavened bread and the preparation for the feast took place."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.ix.html

About the same time, Tertullian was also using unleavened bread at Pascha.

"The unleavened bread was therefore, in the Creator’s ordinance, a figure of us (Christians). “For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.”"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.iv.vi.vii.html

Evidently this thought started even earlier. Here's Justin Martyr c150ad

" For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. "
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.xiv.html

 

[prodromos]

c190ad Clement of Alexandria was using/teaching the use of unleavened bread at Pascha.

"... they inquired, “Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat the passover?”3805 It was on this day, then, that both the consecration of the unleavened bread and the preparation for the feast took place."
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

About the same time, Tertullian was also using unleavened bread at Pascha.

"The unleavened bread was therefore, in the Creator’s ordinance, a figure of us (Christians). “For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.”"
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Evidently this thought started even earlier. Here's Justin Martyr c150ad

" For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. "
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

As has already been stated, the bread used for the passover has no bearing on the bread used for the eucharist.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ahem !

Mark - the Eastern Catholic Churches, on the whole, use leavened bread [ I'm honestly unsure about the Maronites ]

I think that I may have known that, but time takes it's toll; thanks for the clarification dear friend!

 

[GoingByzantine]

duplicate

 

[GoingByzantine]

I had some good websites about this somewhere, but I can't find them.

Historically almost every Eastern Church has used leavened, while almost every Western Church has used unleavened.

The exceptions I know of in the East would be the Armenians, Chaldeans and Maronites as well as some of the Churches in Kerala. However a lot of that has to do with latinizations.

I'm not sure about the use of leavened bread in the West.

 

[prodromos]

Historically almost every Eastern Church has used leavened, while almost every Western Church has used unleavened.

Historically the Western Church used leavened bread up until the 800's, when they began using unleavened bread.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know that there is a significant history regarding the different traditions of the east v. west in regards to the host. What I was wondering (and I hope this won't cause debate or ill will) is what each traditions reasoning/theology behind whether to use leavened or unleavened bread.

Thanks!

Catholics of the Roman rite use unleavened bread. It is a matter of canon law for us. It is not a requirement for the sacrament to be valid. Thus Eastern Catholics may use unleavened bread - and many do.

The biblical reasons for using unleavened bread are present in the gospels according to saints Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In these gospels it is noted that the last supper took place when the feast of unleavened bread was already under way. The words are repeated in each of these gospels. Here are the relevant passages.

Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? (Matthew 26:17)

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12)

Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. (Luke 22:7)​

Reading the context one sees that these verses set the scene for the last supper implying that unleavened bread was the bread broken and said to be the body of Christ.

 

[Standing Up]

The biblical reasons for using unleavened bread are present in the gospels according to saints Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In these gospels it is noted that the last supper took place when the feast of unleavened bread was already under way. The words are repeated in each of these gospels. Here are the relevant passages.

Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? (Matthew 26:17)

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12)

Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. (Luke 22:7)​

Reading the context one sees that these verses set the scene for the last supper implying that unleavened bread was the bread broken and said to be the body of Christ.

Bingo. That's what I said. EO traditionally uses leavened bread because they follow John's gospel that says Passover is yet to come after crucifixion.

 

[Standing Up]

Historically the Western Church used leavened bread up until the 800's, when they began using unleavened bread.

I've quoted 2-3 sources that show they were using unleavened bread in remembrance prior to 200ad.

Do you have anything that shows they were using leavened bread?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I'm aware of the different customs in the East and West on this point..... And IMO, it is a very good thing for all of us to understand the "why" in this. Thus, I applaud this thread (and the spirit thereof).


What BOTHERS ME is how sometimes our various traditionS and customS are fought over, used to condemn and rebuke others, made divisive, thrust into people's faces with a "you're wrong, you're bad" tone. There is too much DOGMA that divides us - we don't need to wage wars over all kinds of other things, too. That's NOT happening here (to which I rejoice) but it does all too often, in MY humble, fallible, usually wrong opinion.


SORRY.


A blessed Holy Week to all...


- Josiah