News? Probably not, but it needs to be said

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Mϋzikdϋde

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mikefromwichita said:
Somone who insists that a behaviour that God explicitly forbids is somehow right and acceptable before God is NOT someone I will call Brother. Redefining 'love' to mean open ended acceptance of that which God forbids and that which all experience shows to be destructive of both individuals and Society is not going to get a free pass either.
There should be no one you wouldn't call brother. Are to so presumptuous as to exclude people as children of God? You would disown anyone who would disagree with you?
I absolutely disagree with this statement and I still consider you my brother.
I also would say that any non Christian on this site or in this world is my brother or sister. Gays, Lesbians, Pagans (especially certain ones on this forum), atheists, black, white, green, etc... We are all brothers and sisters.
Who are you to exhibit conditional love when God's love is unconditional? Because that's what it boils down to love. Love and forgiveness.
 
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muzikdude said:
There should be no one you wouldn't call brother. Are to so presumptuous as to exclude people as children of God? You would disown anyone who would disagree with you?
I absolutely disagree with this statement and I still consider you my brother.
I also would say that any non Christian on this site or in this world is my brother or sister. Gays, Lesbians, Pagans (especially certain ones on this forum), atheists, black, white, green, etc... We are all brothers and sisters.
Who are you to exhibit conditional love when God's love is unconditional? Because that's what it boils down to love. Love and forgiveness.

:bow:
 
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mikefromwichita said:
The Church is instructed to exclude the unrepentant.


Jesus washed Judas' feet would you have done that, knowing he was going to betray you? That is the example that Christ set and we are called to follow.
 
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mikefromwichita said:
He has already said that homosexuality is a Sin.


No, He didn't. You won't find anything in the four canonical Gospels, or the thirteen non-canonical Gospels which mention Jesus saying ANYTHING about homosexuality.

You need to study your Bible, Mike, before you make those assertions.
 
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Mϋzikdϋde

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mikefromwichita said:
......and Paul gave clear guidance about the exclusion of unrepentant sinners.
So did Matthew. They were referring to unrepentant Christians.

So the dilemma is this: Since we start out as sinners we are automatically not in a state of repentance. So are we automatically excluded?
Seems like a vicious circle that offers no hope for salvation. We should try planting a seed and letting God do the work.

Paul never said to stop calling anyone your brother, nor did he say to not love someone. You are exercising a power that is not bestowed upon you. Look at how Jesus handled sinners. His attitude was nothing like yours.
 
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How about, instead of turning this into a homosexuality debate, we look at this as a reminder to show some real love for our fellow Christians, whether or not they share all of our personal beliefs?

Needless to say, I'm directing this at everyone here, not just people on one "side" of the endless debate. A few people have responded in "support" of the original post in ways that could be considered attacks on the people who haven't supported it... That strikes me as missing the point.

So.

OFFICIAL REMINDER: No attacks, no personal attacks, no implications that other members aren't Christian, no snide remarks, no rudeness, no brinksmanship. Be nice or be quiet.

If what it takes to make the thread usable is periodic closures to go through editing and trashing posts and handing out warnings, then that's what we'll have. Remember, official warnings are not a limited resource.
 
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muzikdude said:
Paul never said to stop calling anyone your brother, nor did he say to not love someone. You are exercising a power that is not bestowed upon you. Look at how Jesus handled sinners. His attitude was nothing like yours.

So you say, but according to the Word Paul taught that those who refused to Repent of Sin should be expelled from the Church and Jesus used whips to drive the wicked from the Temple not to mention referring to those who mishandled Scripture as Vipers. The Bible teachs a Faith that is rather intolerant in the eyes of modern PC Liberals. Well the Romans disliked Christianity also for very similar reasons.
 
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Christi

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mikefromwichita said:
So you say, but according to the Word Paul taught that those who refused to Repent of Sin should be expelled from the Church and Jesus used whips to drive the wicked from the Temple not to mention referring to those who mishandled Scripture as Vipers. The Bible teachs a Faith that is rather intolerant in the eyes of modern PC Liberals. Well the Romans disliked Christianity also for very similar reasons.
Please give us a practical example. How do YOU handle sinners in your Church?
 
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So you say, but according to the Word Paul taught that those who refused to Repent of Sin should be expelled from the Church and Jesus used whips to drive the wicked from the Temple not to mention referring to those who mishandled Scripture as Vipers. The Bible teachs a Faith that is rather intolerant in the eyes of modern PC Liberals. Well the Romans disliked Christianity also for very similar reasons.


Paul taught to expell the immoral brother, yes.

Jesus taught to love everyone. Jesus sat and ate and befriended sinners and tax collecters. Do you ever hear of any of them turning their life around? No. But he still ate with them and probably joked around with them at the table.

Paul = Human

Jesus = God

I don't know about you, but I'm gonna follow Jesus's example and befriend EVERYONE, no matter if I have a problem with what they do in thier free time. It doesn't matter who it is, it could be a mass murderer. I would still sit there and joke around with him, showing him that I love him like I love everyone else.

Its that attitude that is going to bring people to Christ, not any other.

(ps, for the record, I am against sex outside of marriage. That goes for heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, and Asexuals. :D)
 
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paxvobiscum

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mikefromwichita said:
So you say, but according to the Word Paul taught that those who refused to Repent of Sin should be expelled from the Church and Jesus used whips to drive the wicked from the Temple not to mention referring to those who mishandled Scripture as Vipers. The Bible teachs a Faith that is rather intolerant in the eyes of modern PC Liberals. Well the Romans disliked Christianity also for very similar reasons.
A lot of the Roman's disliked Christian's because they argued amongst themselves to much.

II Peter 3:16-18 Warning

"Paul wrote things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do the rest of scripture, to their own destruction! You, therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled people, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, both now and to the day of eternity Amen."​

As 2 Peter 3:16-18 pointed out, we have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive ways.​

Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on. Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said.​
 
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mikefromwichita said:
Oh good grief spare me the fevered attempts to pretend that the Word does not say what it says.

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

Romans 14:8-14:
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore Let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.


Galatians 2:16-21:
16Man is not justified by the works of the law but through the faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? God forbid!
18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a law-breaker.
19 For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
21 I don't make void the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"



You are entitled to believe whatever you wish about homosexuality, Michael, but it's not a good idea to try to get Scripture to say something it really doesn't say. If you don't believe me (and I doubt if you will), you might try going back to the original Greek and doing a word-for-word translation of the original text, in the original social, political, historical, religious and linguistic context of the original text.
 
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