New York Assembly passes Same-Sex Marriage

[Caitlin.ann]

Well, I mean no offense to you. I just hope you're not deceived about your interpretation, and I sincerely mean that.

I think I am going to bow out of further discussion on this thread. I think this type of discussion may just tend to anger people rather than cause them to re-evalutate and again, that is not my intent~

Re-evaluate to change an opinion from equality to segregation? Because thats what it is a fight for segregation and second class citizenship vs. equal rights for all.

 

[Mercy Medical]

I think society bases its laws to a large extent to what is morally acceptable to the majority in the society...to what the majority believes is appropriate and moral.

With this logic, where do you stop? Do we really KNOW that it's inappropriate for an adult to have sex with a 12 year old child...or is this just what we feel about it? What facts really show that it's harmful to the child.

Okay, what what if gay marriage becomes morally acceptable? I mean, slavery was considered morally acceptable by the majority at one point in time and now it's not. What about that changed? Most likely the fact that we found that to be unfair and inhumane to do that to a group of people solely based on their race. So would you become more accepting if homosexuality started to become more morally acceptable in today's society? I mean, because in all honesty it is compared to 50+ years ago. Polls show that as the older generations begin to die out, it will become even more morally acceptable as most individuals under the age of 35 are relatively accepting of it.

And as far as the child argument goes, I think that mostly has to do with our knowledge of development and maturity in general. I don't have any studies off hand, but I think it's scientifically proven that children are not capable of fully understanding the implications of a scenario like that due to the fact that they haven't fully matured.

 

[Mercy Medical]

How do you propose we make law? Isn't God's law perfect? They can engage in their homosexual perversions all they want. That doesn't mean the law should approve of it!!!! I'm not advocating outlawing homosexuality (yet). But if something is an abomination in God's eyes and against God's law and man (all men, not just believers) are subject to God's law, why shouldn't God's law be man's law?

Once again, I present the argument of separation of church and state and that our laws (our in regards to the United States) are not determine nor should they be determined by God's law. I could go onto the whole free will bit, but then I would be going in circles and I have obviously presented that argument enough times.

And you failed to really answer any of the probing questions I presented which would lead me to believe you have nowhere left to go with your argument.

 

[Mercy Medical]

Well, I mean no offense to you. I just hope you're not deceived about your interpretation, and I sincerely mean that.

I think I am going to bow out of further discussion on this thread. I think this type of discussion may just tend to anger people rather than cause them to re-evalutate and again, that is not my intent~

And I also hope you are not deceived by your interpretation and I also sincerely mean that.

 

[SadieOC]

Once again, I present the argument of separation of church and state and that our laws (our in regards to the United States) are not determine nor should they be determined by God's law. I could go onto the whole free will bit, but then I would be going in circles and I have obviously presented that argument enough times.

And you failed to really answer any of the probing questions I presented which would lead me to believe you have nowhere left to go with your argument.

I think the Constitution should be changed.

I don't have anywhere else to go. God says what the law is. If you want to ignore God's law go ahead. But I don't want my laws to approve.

 

[kaykay9.0]

And I also hope you are not deceived by your interpretation and I also sincerely mean that.

Well, if I am, I am, but for you, the consequences might be greater... if it's affecting what you choose to practice( assuming your interpretation is wrong.)

Ok, that's it. I'm done here. I really didn't intend to come over here to argue, and this IS a most inflammatory subject. I think we just have to agree to disagree. We're all pretty set in what we think.

 

[Mercy Medical]

I think the Constitution should be changed.

I don't have anywhere else to go. God says what the law is. If you want to ignore God's law go ahead. But I don't want my laws to approve.

You think the Constitution should be changed to adhere to God's laws? Once again, I present the free will argument and how forcing someone into your belief system is not the proper way to go, nor would I believe that it's the way God wants people to be lead to him. By forcing people into your belief system you are most likely doing more harm then good and pushing them away instead of drawing them close. The ultimate goal of Christianity is to spread the word of God's love to all people and lead all people to him, but by forcing your beliefs onto people you are doing the exact opposite.

The fact that you think the Constitution should be changed to God's law doesn't change the fact that it won't be. It is what it is and there is a clear separation of church and state and it is clearly defined that all men are created equal are are allowed the equal pursuit of happiness. In regards to legal terms, prohibiting gay marriage is infringing on an individuals rights...rights that are defined by the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

If you believe that homosexuality is wrong, then you should teach that to your children and preach that in your church, but you should force your belief system on other people.

 

[Mercy Medical]

Well, if I am, I am, but for you, the consequences might be greater... if it's affecting what you choose to practice( assuming your interpretation is wrong.)

Ok, that's it. I'm done here. I really didn't intend to come over here to argue, and this IS a most inflammatory subject. I think we just have to agree to disagree. We're all pretty set in what we think.

How is this subject the least bit inflammatory?

 

[Mercy Medical]

For those of you who oppose gay marriage, I present you with a very hypothetical scenario.

What if you lived in a world where homosexuality was the norm and heterosexuality was not? A world where homosexual marriages were legal, but heterosexual ones were not? What if you were prevented from marrying the individual you love and want to spend the rest of your life with just because of the majority's view on opposite-sex relations? What if Christian beliefs weren't the majority and Atheism was? Would you appreciate it if someone prevented you from marrying the one you love solely because of your gender? Would it be right for the majority to impose their beliefs on you? Wouldn't you feel as though your freedoms as an individual would be removed and wouldn't you not like the feeling of having the beliefs of Atheism (or lack there of, you can really insert any non-Christian religion here) forced upon you?

 

[kaykay9.0]

How is this subject the least bit inflammatory?

I simply mean that people have very strongly held opinions about this in many cases and sometimes the arguments can get very volatile and in some cases, unkind. In other words, sometimes people's tempers get "inflamed." At least that has been my experience on another forum, not CF. (Thankfully, that hasn't gotten to that level here yet, but you know what I mean.) Kind of like abortion tends to be a volatile, "inflammatory" subject.

 

[jayem]

How do you propose we make law? Isn't God's law perfect? They can engage in their homosexual perversions all they want. That doesn't mean the law should approve of it!!!! I'm not advocating outlawing homosexuality (yet). But if something is an abomination in God's eyes and against God's law and man (all men, not just believers) are subject to God's law, why shouldn't God's law be man's law?

Well, the supreme law of the land in the US is the Constitution. It says so right in Article VI. Our laws aren't based on the Books of Leviticus or Romans. If the duly elected legislators of the state of New York believe recognizing same-sex unions are legal marriages, then that's how it will be. It doesn't matter if the Bible implies otherwise. It only matters that the law doesn't violate either New York's own state Constitution, or the U.S. Constitution.

You're entitled to your opinion and to express it. You're entitled to work within the system to get laws passed and to amend the Constitution to your liking. But just recognize that we have a secular government in this country, not a Bibliocracy. Not everyone (I'd say a small minority in actuality) will agree that God's law (as you put it) is perfect and should be followed to the letter.

 

[SadieOC]

You think the Constitution should be changed to adhere to God's laws? Once again, I present the free will argument and how forcing someone into your belief system is not the proper way to go, nor would I believe that it's the way God wants people to be lead to him. By forcing people into your belief system you are most likely doing more harm then good and pushing them away instead of drawing them close. The ultimate goal of Christianity is to spread the word of God's love to all people and lead all people to him, but by forcing your beliefs onto people you are doing the exact opposite.

How do laws take away god given freewill? Do you feel like your freewill is taken away because the law does not allow you to murder?

Second, obviously having secular laws has not worked to bring more to Christ. People were much more devout when man's law reflected God's law. We are a more secular society now and we have less believers than ever. Atheists are not even ashamed of their lack of belief anymore. They preach about it and write books hoping to turn people from Jesus. How can we allow that!?

 

[Mercy Medical]

How do laws take away god given freewill? Do you feel like your freewill is taken away because the law does not allow you to murder?

Second, obviously having secular laws has not worked to bring more to Christ. People were much more devout when man's law reflected God's law. We are a more secular society now and we have less believers than ever. Atheists are not even ashamed of their lack of belief anymore. They preach about it and write books hoping to turn people from Jesus. How can we allow that!?

Because you are enforcing the belief on individuals that gay marriage is wrong in the eyes of God and you are removing the ability for same-sex individuals to get married based on a religious belief...which ones again, separation of church and state.

And I am not addressing the murder scenario as I have presented why that is not a comparable situation.

It is my personal belief that the will of God or the beliefs of God should not be forced on others and that they should only come to God if that is what they want in their life. It's somewhat similar to a drug addict. You can have people force a drug addict to rehab time and time again, but it will never stick and never work unless they truly want it in their life. I feel as though it is the same way with Christianity and coming to the Lord. If someone wants that and needs that in their life, they will seek it out, but it shouldn't be forced upon them. I believe that forcing it upon them completely negates what God wants out of his followers because they are following him because they are forced to, not because they truly want to.

And atheists should not be ashamed of their lack of belief. That is their personal belief, their own journey and if that makes them happy and makes their life fulfilling, that is great. Everyone is entitled to their own belief system in life. None of us truly know what happens when we die and no one will ever find out the truth. We shouldn't scrutinize others for what they belief because that is their way of life and if that makes them truly happy and they aren't infringing on others with those beliefs, then that is fantastic. If they want to know about God and come to you with questions, then that is also fantastic.

And we allow it because we are a free nation. A nation developed on freedom of religion. A nation developed on freedom of speech. A nation developed with the separation of church and state. We were created and have welcomed a vast array of individuals into our country because of those freedoms and because they won't be persecuted (or at least hope they won't) for what they believe and who they are. That's what makes this country so great.

 

[craigerNY]

How do laws take away god given freewill? Do you feel like your freewill is taken away because the law does not allow you to murder?

Second, obviously having secular laws has not worked to bring more to Christ. People were much more devout when man's law reflected God's law. We are a more secular society now and we have less believers than ever. Atheists are not even ashamed of their lack of belief anymore. They preach about it and write books hoping to turn people from Jesus. How can we allow that!?

Are you for real? It's the government's job to bring people to Jesus?

 

[SadieOC]

Are you for real? It's the government's job to bring people to Jesus?

Why not? God wants us to share the word of Jesus with everyone. If enough of us get together to form a government whose purpose is to bring the word of Jesus to mankind, I think God would be pleased.

Why do you assume I'm not real?

 

[Mercy Medical]

Why not? God wants us to share the word of Jesus with everyone. If enough of us get together to form a government whose purpose is to bring the word of Jesus to mankind, I think God would be pleased.

Why do you assume I'm not real?

Once again, separation of church and state and I do not think God would be pleased with a bunch of mindless followers who only abide by his law because they were forced to. There's no meaning or heart in that.

You should bring the word of Jesus to mankind by sitting down and having personal discussions with people, not by forcing your laws upon them.

 

[SadieOC]

Once again, separation of church and state and I do not think God would be pleased with a bunch of mindless followers who only abide by his law because they were forced to. There's no meaning or heart in that.

You should bring the word of Jesus to mankind by sitting down and having personal discussions with people, not by forcing your laws upon them.

Why not? Why should we not "force" people? I'd rather force people to believe when they are on earth and have them feel like they had a not-so-free-and-fun physical life than let the do whatever they think is okay in life and end up being eternally tortured. Here more than anywhere else, the ends do justify the means.

To me, it is a greater sin to allow people to go to hell than to use human laws to "force" them to believe. People have freewill, but there are consequences. God makes the consequences eternal. Why should men not make the consequences physical?

 

[craigerNY]

Has anyone called poe on this guy yet?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Who says we're entitled to the pursuit of happiness? Man's law?

Yes, as a matter of fact: Man's law.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Nothing in God's law says we have the right to be happy.

You have every right under Man's Law to be as miserable as you want to be -- but not to make others miserable.

Humans are here to make God happy, not themselves happy. Homosexuality does not make God happy.

God had His oppertunity to weigh in at the NY State Assembly -- apparantly He chose to abstain.

 

[Nathan Poe]

How do laws take away god given freewill? Do you feel like your freewill is taken away because the law does not allow you to murder?

Are you saying that people aren't coerced into actions against their free will out of fear of consequences?

Second, obviously having secular laws has not worked to bring more to Christ. People were much more devout when man's law reflected God's law.

If my choices were "be devout" of face a public stoning, I'd be much more "devout" as well -- not to mention more miserable.

We are a more secular society now and we have less believers than ever.

Amazing what people will choose to do without a government boot on their neck.

Atheists are not even ashamed of their lack of belief anymore. They preach about it and write books hoping to turn people from Jesus. How can we allow that!?

What are you going to do about it?