New York Assembly passes Same-Sex Marriage

[gnomon]

There's no victim in homosexuality!? I'd say society suffers pretty well. Ultimately God is the victim.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

But it does not say that those who provide official state recognition to homosexuals who get married will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[SadieOC]

What is God's law? No where in the Bible have I read that sectarian nations must not hand out paper certificates to homosexual couples who are already living together and engaging in every activity heterosexual couples do excepting just a very few specific sex acts.

Is the law laid out in 2 Revelations.

I distinctly remember in church and bible study that Jesus preached about the individual. Not about what states should or should not condone.

The Bible is God's law.

Jesus did preach about the individual. That doesn't mean the individual should have no say in what the state should condone. The state is made up of individuals. If enough real Christians would come out against this we could change the Constitution!

 

[kaykay9.0]

What is the context of that passage?

Paul is discussing lifestyles that the Corinthians have been "delivered out of" before they were Christians.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." NASB translation 1 Corinthians 6:9. Then Paul says, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." NIV translation

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Because it really makes sense that we should all be held to ancient doctrine..really that makes sense that we'd be held under the rules of ancient desert societies who wrote on stone tablets when we now live in a gobalized and complex society..makes a ton of sense.

 

[Mercy Medical]

There's no victim in homosexuality!? I'd say society suffers pretty well. Ultimately God is the victim.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

How does society suffer by what two people do behind closed doors? God may be the victim in your eyes, but once again separation of church and state. That has no standing over whether or not the US government recognizes same sex couples or not.

In regards to the passage, there was no word for homosexual at that point in history. That word wasn't even used until the 1900s in Germany (I think that's right, although I may be off on the date) so the use of that word in that passage is incorrect and shows the misinterpretation of the Bible. Now, you could argue the term "effeminate", but that could also many a variety of things. I would suggest you view this website to gain an understanding of the vast array of interpretations that passage might have. Yes, it could mean that God is condemning homosexuality, but it could also mean something completely different. We will never truly know, however, as we have translated it time and time again for various different versions of the Bible and we were not there at that moment in history to truly know what God meant by it.

 

[gnomon]

The Bible is God's law.

Jesus did preach about the individual. That doesn't mean the individual should have no say in what the state should condone. The state is made up of individuals. If enough real Christians would come out against this we could change the Constitution!

Real Christian? Who decides that. But the No True Scotsman line of argumentation goes no where. Just best to agree that neither of us can say with ultimate authority who a real Christian is.

Anyway, if the Bible is God's law and so precise on who gets to enter heaven why did he create males who are born women? Where in the world do they fit in? And who gets to decide if they are male or female? You and me? Scientists? Legislators? Judges? Or the individual in question?

 

[SadieOC]

How does society suffer by what two people do behind closed doors? God may be the victim in your eyes, but once again separation of church and state. That has no standing over whether or not the US government recognizes same sex couples or not.

In regards to the passage, there was no word for homosexual at that point in history. That word wasn't even used until the 1900s in Germany (I think that's right, although I may be off on the date) so the use of that word in that passage is incorrect and shows the misinterpretation of the Bible. Now, you could argue the term "effeminate", but that could also many a variety of things. I would suggest you view to gain an understanding of the vast array of interpretations that passage might have. Yes, it could mean that God is condemning homosexuality, but it could also mean something completely different. We will never truly know, however, as we have translated it time and time again for various different versions of the Bible and we were not there at that moment in history to truly know what God meant by it.

If God saw homosexuality as permissive, why was female created for male? God didn't create another man for Adam, he created his spiritual companion in woman. There is never an approved of homosexual relationship in the Bible. That's enough for me.

 

[Mercy Medical]

Paul is discussing lifestyles that the Corinthians have been "delivered out of" before they were Christians.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." NASB translation 1 Corinthians 6:9. Then Paul says, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." NIV translation

I suggest you read this for other potential interpretations of that passage...

 

[kaykay9.0]

How does society suffer by what two people do behind closed doors? God may be the victim in your eyes, but once again separation of church and state. That has no standing over whether or not the US government recognizes same sex couples or not.

In regards to the passage, there was no word for homosexual at that point in history. That word wasn't even used until the 1900s in Germany (I think that's right, although I may be off on the date) so the use of that word in that passage is incorrect and shows the misinterpretation of the Bible. Now, you could argue the term "effeminate", but that could also many a variety of things. I would suggest you view this website to gain an understanding of the vast array of interpretations that passage might have. Yes, it could mean that God is condemning homosexuality, but it could also mean something completely different. We will never truly know, however, as we have translated it time and time again for various different versions of the Bible and we were not there at that moment in history to truly know what God meant by it.

I have studied this argument before. I don't think it's valid. I think it's pretty clear in light of what the old testament said about practicing homosexuality that it would be still considered sinful under the new covenant. This was not just about an unclean food etc. (which was specifically changed under the new covenant.)

 

[SadieOC]

Real Christian? Who decides that. But the No True Scotsman line of argumentation goes no where. Just best to agree that neither of us can say with ultimate authority who a real Christian is.

Anyway, if the Bible is God's law and so precise on who gets to enter heaven why did he create males who are born women? Where in the world do they fit in? And who gets to decide if they are male or female? You and me? Scientists? Legislators? Judges? Or the individual in question?

God will decide who real Christians are at Judgment.

When has there ever been a man born woman? You are born male or female. Are you talking about hermaphrodites? Just another problem in our world created by the sin of mankind.

God decides what gender you are.

 

[Mercy Medical]

If God saw homosexuality as permissive, why was female created for male? God didn't create another man for Adam, he created his spiritual companion in woman. There is never an approved of homosexual relationship in the Bible. That's enough for me.

God created a woman and a man because that is the only possible way to populate this big gigantic empty Earth that he had created.

There is no condemnation of a loving, monogamous, same-sex relationship in the Bible. The passages supposedly condemning homosexuality have to with being inhospitable, temple worship and temple prostitution.

There is even potential to interpret the relationship of Naomi and Ruth as well as Johnathan and David as same-sex relationships.

 

[Mercy Medical]

I have studied this argument before. I don't think it's valid. I think it's pretty clear in light of what the old testament said about practicing homosexuality that it would be still considered sinful under the new covenant. This was not just about an unclean food etc. (which was specifically changed under the new covenant.)

Okay, well there's the key. You don't THINK it's valid. That is your opinion, which someone else who is also a Christian could think it is a completely valid argument. The fact is, you don't know for sure. There is not fact, no proof as we have no idea what the original Greek and Hebrew texts truly meant as we are so far disassociated with those ancient languages. You think this way because this is the way you have interpreted it or this is the way you have been taught. It's completely plausible for another individual to be raised from birth in a Christian household that was taught completely the opposite.

Should be base government laws on things we think to be truths or should we base them on facts and reality?

 

[kaykay9.0]

God created a woman and a man because that is the only possible way to populate this big gigantic empty Earth that he had created.

There is no condemnation of a loving, monogamous, same-sex relationship in the Bible. The passages supposedly condemning homosexuality have to with being inhospitable, temple worship and temple prostitution.

There is even potential to interpret the relationship of Naomi and Ruth as well as Johnathan and David as same-sex relationships.

Some scholars may agree with your argument, but others do NOT. You need to usually look at what the WHOLE counsel of scripture says on any given subject to see what is really being communicated.

Furthermore, the notionof Naomi/ Ruth and Jonathan/David's relationships being sexual in any way, is never hinted at in any way by the Bible.

 

[Mercy Medical]

God will decide who real Christians are at Judgment.

When has there ever been a man born woman? You are born male or female. Are you talking about hermaphrodites? Just another problem in our world created by the sin of mankind.

God decides what gender you are.

If God decides who real Christians are at judgment, then why should you care what they think and believe now and why should you want to dictate how they live there life because of the way you perceive things? Shouldn't you be more worried about yourself and your own relationship with God instead of dictating how other individuals live their lives? Does it really matter if legalizing gay marriage condemns us all to hell and brings back Jesus if you have a strong relationship with the Lord and you believe that you will be sent to Heaven? Shouldn't you be spending more time teaching individuals about the ways of Jesus and God and bringing them to those beliefs instead of forcing those beliefs upon them? Wouldn't that be a better method? I know the premise of Christianity is to bring others into it, so why waste your time and effort trying to force something on an individual instead of actually having a conversation about them about God and Jesus and Christianity and finding out who they are and what they need and want in their life?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Speaking of, homosexuality was rampant in parts of the ancient world and not condemned. In some places men were expected to have younger men they would..umm couple with. Imagine its this one ancient culture and beliefs which allegedly depending on your translation which the modern world is being held to. Makes no logical sense.

 

[gnomon]

God will decide who real Christians are at Judgment.

When has there ever been a man born woman? You are born male or female. Are you talking about hermaphrodites? Just another problem in our world created by the sin of mankind.

God decides what gender you are.

There are no human hermaphrodites.

I'm not talking about gender. I'm talking about sex. That is what court rulings and legislation are based upon.

It was Christie Lee whom the Fourth Court had ruled against; because she'd been born male, the court said, her seven-year marriage to Mark Littleton wasn't valid. Never mind that Christie Lee had lived most of her life with a vagina; never mind that her husband knew about her sex change; never mind that they'd been issued a marriage license in Kentucky and presented themselves as just another dull married couple. After Mark's death, Christie Lee wasn't allowed to sue for malpractice because the court said she had no standing in the case. In the eyes of the Fourth Court, Christie Lee was forever a man, and her marriage to Mark didn't count. Their chromosomes were all that mattered.

From Houston News article 9/14/2000 called "XX Marks the Spot".

There is much more but I cannot post links and do not have the time at the moment to start a large dissertation on intersex, people born with ambiguous genitalia and sex assignment as well as the fact that gender is a social distinction and less of a biological one.

Needless to say and no offense intended but if God creates every human being male or female the job is not being done very well.

 

[Mercy Medical]

Some scholars may agree with your argument, but others do NOT. You need to usually look at what the WHOLE counsel of scripture says on any given subject to see what is really being communicated.

Furthermore, the notionof Naomi/ Ruth and Jonathan/David's relationships being sexual in any way, is never hinted at in any way by the Bible.

But there is the problem, some may and some may not. I am honestly open to the idea that my beliefs on homosexuality and the Bible (I am a lesbian and I do consider myself to be a Christian) may be wrong, but for the most part in my heart I feel that they are right. So what makes me different from you and your beliefs? They are merely feelings and thoughts we have based on things we have been taught in our lifetimes. They are not based on any sort of factual evidence. So who is to say that you have it right and I have it wrong?

Now, while there is no indication of a sexual relationship between either of those two parties, there is very strong language used in those passages to indicate that they may have potentially had a relationship on a deeper level then friendship.

 

[kaykay9.0]

Should be base government laws on things we think to be truths or should we base them on facts and reality?

I think society bases its laws to a large extent to what is morally acceptable to the majority in the society...to what the majority believes is appropriate and moral.

With this logic, where do you stop? Do we really KNOW that it's inappropriate for an adult to have sex with a 12 year old child...or is this just what we feel about it? What facts really show that it's harmful to the child.

 

[kaykay9.0]

But there is the problem, some may and some may not. I am honestly open to the idea that my beliefs on homosexuality and the Bible (I am a lesbian and I do consider myself to be a Christian) may be wrong, but for the most part in my heart I feel that they are right. So what makes me different from you and your beliefs? They are merely feelings and thoughts we have based on things we have been taught in our lifetimes. They are not based on any sort of factual evidence. So who is to say that you have it right and I have it wrong?

Now, while there is no indication of a sexual relationship between either of those two parties, there is very strong language used in those passages to indicate that they may have potentially had a relationship on a deeper level then friendship.

Well, I mean no offense to you. I just hope you're not deceived about your interpretation, and I sincerely mean that.

I think I am going to bow out of further discussion on this thread. I think this type of discussion may just tend to anger people rather than cause them to re-evalutate and again, that is not my intent~

 

[SadieOC]

If God decides who real Christians are at judgment, then why should you care what they think and believe now and why should you want to dictate how they live there life because of the way you perceive things? Shouldn't you be more worried about yourself and your own relationship with God instead of dictating how other individuals live their lives? Does it really matter if legalizing gay marriage condemns us all to hell and brings back Jesus if you have a strong relationship with the Lord and you believe that you will be sent to Heaven? Shouldn't you be spending more time teaching individuals about the ways of Jesus and God and bringing them to those beliefs instead of forcing those beliefs upon them? Wouldn't that be a better method? I know the premise of Christianity is to bring others into it, so why waste your time and effort trying to force something on an individual instead of actually having a conversation about them about God and Jesus and Christianity and finding out who they are and what they need and want in their life?

How do you propose we make law? Isn't God's law perfect? They can engage in their homosexual perversions all they want. That doesn't mean the law should approve of it!!!! I'm not advocating outlawing homosexuality (yet). But if something is an abomination in God's eyes and against God's law and man (all men, not just believers) are subject to God's law, why shouldn't God's law be man's law?