New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

Biblewriter

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The problem is that Hebrews 11:15-16 says the exact opposite.

Jesus told the woman at the well the exact opposite.

Paul says the exact opposite in Galatians chapter 4, when he compares the Jerusalem that is above, to the city of "bondage".

We find earthly Jerusalem compared to Sodom in Revelation chapter 11.

Will we be given a piece of land on the New Earth?


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Actually, none of the passages you cited here say the opposite of what the Holy Spirit said through the Old Testament prophets. Each of them only says something that you choose to interpret to mean the very opposite to what the Holy Spirit had already said. But the problem here is not that the Holy Spirit contradicted himself. It is that you are elevating your own personal opinion above the explicit statements of the Holy Spirit.
 
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BABerean2

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Actually, none of the passages you cited here say the opposite of what the Holy Spirit said through the Old Testament prophets. Each of them only says something that you choose to interpret to mean the very opposite to what the Holy Spirit had already said. But the problem here is not that the Holy Spirit contradicted himself. It is that you are elevating your own personal opinion above the explicit statements of the Holy Spirit.


Luk_6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

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Biblewriter

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Luk_6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

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I repeatedly post scriptures that explicitly say that God will re-establish the ancient nation of Israel in its ancient homeland.And you repeatedly post scriptures that say things that you interpret to mean those explicit statements are not correct.

Who is right, God or BABwrean2? Here is a hint. Not even one of the scriptures you keep quoting ever actually says what you claim it means.
 
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claninja

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I repeatedly post scriptures that explicitly say that God will re-establish the ancient nation of Israel in its ancient homeland.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
John 3:12

Who is right, God or BABwrean2? Here is a hint.

Wow. Just wow.

It’s more like which personal interpretation is closer to the truth, yours or BAberean?
As you have been unable to refute any of BAbereans posts so far, it appears your interpretation is weaker. Until you refute the verses and provide ample evidence that the physical Jerusalem is the ultimate promise and not the heavenly Jerusalem, your arguments are groundless.
 
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keras

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The problem is that Hebrews 11:15-16 says the exact opposite.

Jesus told the woman at the well the exact opposite.

Paul says the exact opposite in Galatians chapter 4, when he compares the Jerusalem that is above, to the city of "bondage".

We find earthly Jerusalem compared to Sodom in Revelation chapter 11.

Will we be given a piece of land on the New Earth?
As I have repeatedly stated, the situation during this Church age, is as you point out.
This in no way means that there won't be a rebuilt holy Land, Jerusalem and Temple. Literally; as the Prophets so comprehensively tell us. Isaiah 58:11-12, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Zechariah 10:8-10, +
And who exactly will be the people that will live there in peace and prosperity?
The Lord's 'sheep', all those who love Him and keep His Commandments. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10
THEY will be called the Sons of the Living God, in the very place that the ancient Israelites were called; You are no sons of Mine. Romans 9:24-26
 
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BABerean2

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I repeatedly post scriptures that explicitly say that God will re-establish the ancient nation of Israel in its ancient homeland.And you repeatedly post scriptures that say things that you interpret to mean those explicit statements are not correct.

Who is right, God or BABwrean2? Here is a hint. Not even one of the scriptures you keep quoting ever actually says what you claim it means.

We are still waiting for you to share some of what you have written about the New Covenant.


Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and the New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart and turns into a vapor.

Maybe you think the scriptures above and below do not really mean what they say...

.................................................................


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

NKJV

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BABerean2

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during this Church age, is as you point out.

Based on Hebrews 13:20 the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore it does not end.

Jesus Christ is the temple of God as revealed by 1 Peter 2:4-10.
We are stones in that temple and He is the "chief cornerstone".

God does not dwell in a temple made by hands.


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jgr

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As I have repeatedly stated, the situation during this Church age, is as you point out.
This in no way means that there won't be a rebuilt holy Land, Jerusalem and Temple. Literally; as the Prophets so comprehensively tell us. Isaiah 58:11-12, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Zechariah 10:8-10, +
And who exactly will be the people that will live there in peace and prosperity?
The Lord's 'sheep', all those who love Him and keep His Commandments. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10
THEY will be called the Sons of the Living God, in the very place that the ancient Israelites were called; You are no sons of Mine. Romans 9:24-26
God's children are promised a heavenly country and city (Hebrews 11:16; 12:22). Given the choice between earthly and heavenly, what child of God wouldn't choose the latter? Wouldn't you?
 
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keras

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God's children are promised a heavenly country and city (Hebrews 11:16; 12:22). Given the choice between earthly and heavenly, what child of God wouldn't choose the latter? Wouldn't you?
Actually; no.
Because we are humans, we are made for a purpose and that purpose isn't to serve God in heaven, He has myriads of angels for that.
What He wanted was to have a people who freely chose to love Him and to keep His Commandments. A people who would be His witnesses and the Light to the nations.
A task that the ancient Israelites failed, but the born again faithful Christians will gladly do it. Wouldn't you?

I do have a personal reason for my belief. The Lord gave me a vision and I know that the time is coming that I will be among the vast multitude of people, living in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, fulfilling our destiny as the Lord's people on earth. Revelation 5:9-10
 
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BABerean2

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The Lord gave me a vision and I know that the time is coming that I will be among the vast multitude of people, living in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, fulfilling our destiny as the Lord's people on earth. Revelation 5:9-10


Do you realize that the scene described in Revelation 5:9-10 takes place in heaven and is mainly speaking of the elders in heaven?

Rev 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
Rev 5:14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


Do you think those in heaven are going to come back here and reign on this sin-cursed earth or are they going to reign on the New Earth?


Rev_3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.


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Biblewriter

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12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
John 3:12



Wow. Just wow.

It’s more like which personal interpretation is closer to the truth, yours or BAberean?
As you have been unable to refute any of BAbereans posts so far, it appears your interpretation is weaker. Until you refute the verses and provide ample evidence that the physical Jerusalem is the ultimate promise and not the heavenly Jerusalem, your arguments are groundless.

I no longer bother myself with most of BAB's posts, because they are so very repititous, and never address the scriptures I have quoted so very many times. He, and several others here, including most recently yourself, choose to interpret these New Testament scriptures to mean that the Old testament promises to Israel will not actually be fulfilled. But the scriptures they quote never actually say what these people claim they mean.

It appears that you have not even read the scriptures I quoted in the multi-part opening post of this thread. For I have demonstrated that the promises made to Israel were not only made in the Old Testament, but also made in the New Testament.

I have posted literally many of these explicitly stated Old testament scriptures here in this sub-forum, and in the Dispensationalism sub-forum, more times than I can count. As you have only recently popped up here, it appears that you are unaware of the very many multi-part opening posts for various threads I have already posted here.

As I am very busy on another research project, I have not had time to address your protests. But the following links will direct you to an entire series of them. For each link, go to it and then go to the first page, to see the scriptures I posted.

The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures
The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures

What Happens When Messiah Comes
What happens when Messiah comes.

Scripture prophesies a future temporary earthly kingdom.
Scripture prophesies a future temporary earthly kingdom.

The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.
The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.

The unfulfilled promise of Israel’s repentance
The unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentence.

The unfulfilled promise to David
The unfulfilled promise to David

The unfulfilled promise to Abraham
The unfulfilled promise to Abraham.

The True Meaning of Romans 9-11
The True Meaning of Romans 9-11
 
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BABerean2

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The unfulfilled promise to David
The unfulfilled promise to David

The unfulfilled promise to Abraham
The unfulfilled promise to Abraham.


Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.


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Biblewriter

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Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.


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I quote specific promises made in explicit language, and you answer with generalities, not even one of which denies that even one of these explicitly stated promises will be literally fulfilled.
 
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claninja

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O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Luke 13:34-35)

We need to notice what was addressed here. These words were not addressed to the individuals standing around. Nor were they addressed to the priests that had rejected Him. Nor to the Pharisees and Sadducees. They were addressed, and specifically addressed, to a city, Jerusalem. Jesus said, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!” (And in both passages, the wording of this sentence is identical.) The fact that Jesus accused Jerusalem of killing “the prophets” and of stoning “those who are sent to her,” Jesus was unquestionably addressing the city of Jerusalem in a multi-generational sense.

Yes, Jesus was addressing the city of Jerusalem in a multi-generational sense as the priests of Jesus' time did not kill the OT prophets, but who did Jesus say would pay the price for the all the righteous blood shed since abel? It was those of Jesus' generation.

Matthew 23:33-36
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

So Jesus was unquestionably saying that there was a time coming, in which this wicked and rebellious city would finally say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” (And again, in this sentence as well, the wording of both of these passages is identical.)

At this point, Jesus is talking to the audience in front of him, and not a future generational one.
Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’c

The greek word here for see is:
idēte ἴδητε

It means: to see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
AND properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

It is the same word that is used when Jesus tells the Pharisees:
Matthew 26:64
64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven

So the Jews would who rejected Jesus at the time Jesus was speaking in Matthew 23, would not see/perceive him as the messiah until they said Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”

This prophecy was fulfilled. There were thousands of Jews who rejected Christ initially, but later converted and "saw/perceived" that he was the messiah. These are just a few of the conversions recorded in the book of Acts.

Acts 2:40-41
Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The conversion of saul
Acts 9:4
falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

Acts 9:22
22But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 28:23
23When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved.

Again, we read:

“24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)
But we need to notice that the time specified by the words “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” does not end at the fall of Jerusalem.

This all depends on one's belief of what the times of the gentiles means. Unfortunately, I have not seen if there is a reference to the time of gentiles in the OT. If there is, maybe someone can point it out. What we do know, is that the Jerusalem that is trampled by the gentiles is about PHYSICAL JERUSALEM. I assume we agree that heavenly Jerusalem can never be trampled.

So when did Jerusalem begin to be trampled by Gentiles? was it in 70AD? No, it was much earlier. The trampling of Jerusalem by Gentiles began under Babylon. It was predicted that 4 different kingdoms would rule the earth until God would set up his everlasting kingdom (Daniel 2 and Daniel 7). Jerusalem, with no Davidic king, was trampled by the Babylonians, then the Persians/Medes, then the Greeks, and then the Romans, until earthly physical Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70AD. After 70AD and the official end of the old covenant, physical earthly Jerusalem no longer mattered. Even Paul states that earthly physical Jerusalem will not inherit with the free Jerusalem that is above.

And what do we know of God's kingdom?
1.) it is not of this world
John 18:36
36Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence
2.) it does not come with observable signs.
Luke 17:20
20And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, ‘The reign of God doth not come with observation



If physical Jerusalem is important in the future, then Paul was wrong about the slave woman's inheritance.

Galatians 4:25-27,31
25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


If physical Jerusalem is important in the future, then the writer of Hebrews was wrong about the heavenly country that the OT saints desired

Hebrews 11:15-16
AND IF, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return, BUT now they long for a better, that is, an heavenly, wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He did prepare for them a city.
_______________________________________________________________________


It's interesting that the Jews were waiting for the messiah to come and overthrow the romans and set up an eternal earthly kingdom, where Jerusalem ruled the world. And now there are Christians waiting for the messiah to come and overthrow the world powers to set up an earthly kingdom, where Jerusalem rules the world. History repeating itself right there.

But what of the second of the two pronouncements we are currently discussing? In Romans 11:25 we read that “blindness in part has happened to Israel.” Now many want to insist that in the New Testament, “Israel” means “the church.” But this passage is clearly not saying that “blindness in part” has happened to “the church.”

Yes, part of natural (ethnic) Israel was hardened. Why were they hardened?
1.) To make known his riches to the vessels of mercy
romans 9:22-24
And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call — us 24not only out of Jews, but also out of nations
2.) To make salvation go to the nations
say, then, Did they stumble that they might fall? let it not be! but by their fall the salvation [is] to the nations, to arouse them to jealousy;

Spiritual Israel=the body of Christ, and is one unit. Not 2 separate units. During the time of Paul it consisted of the Remnant, chosen by grace natural Israel, and gentiles who grafted in.
Romans 11:17
17And if certain of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wast graffed in among them, and a fellow-partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree didst become —

ONLY THE REMNANT was saved
Romans 9:27
Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, ‘If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;

The rest of Israel was destroyed and became as Sodom and Gomorrah by the roman armies, as Christ predicted.
Romans 9:29
29and according as Isaiah saith before, ‘Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.’

Matthew 23:35-36
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
 
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claninja

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He, and several others here, including most recently yourself, choose to interpret these New Testament scriptures to mean that the Old testament promises to Israel will not actually be fulfilled.

This is a strawman argument.
 
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BABerean2

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and you answer with generalities

Do you deny that the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ, as revealed by His words in Luke 24:25-27?

Do you deny that the promises made to Abraham were made only to Christ, in Galatians 3:16?

Do you deny that Christ said the "son" is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21 ?

Do you deny that we are told to avoid using genealogies in our faith in Titus 3:9?

.
 
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Davy

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God's children are promised a heavenly country and city (Hebrews 11:16; 12:22). Given the choice between earthly and heavenly, what child of God wouldn't choose the latter? Wouldn't you?

Jesus is coming back to earth to reign per God's Word (Zech.14; Psalms 2). So where do you think the heavenly will be?

If an angel is a heavenly being and that angel appears on this earth, then where is heaven to that angel? (Gen.19, the two angels that appeared to Lot).
 
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Biblewriter

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This is a strawman argument.
Actually, it is a literally true and entirely correct statement.

The Old Testament contains explicitly stated promises to the nation of Israel. All the people on your side want to apply all these promises to the church. Although I reject this interpretation as faulty, I do recognize, and clearly recognize, that there is at least the appearance of justificatin for that interpretation. That is, I recognize that there are indeed New Testament scriptures that can be legitimately interpreted to mean that. (But along the way, I note that not even one of these New Testament scriptures necessarily means that.)

And as a side note, the promises made to the church are so much better than the promises made to Israel, that no spiritually minded Christian would even want the things promised to the nation of Israel.

But the explicitly stated promises in the Old Testament are not only made to the nation of Israel, but to the piece of real estate that they occupied in ancient times. Ezekiel 36 is explicitly addressed to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around." (verses 1-9) Then, in verse 10, this piece of real estate is promised that it will again be inhabited by absolutely all of "the house of Israel." The fact that the meaning is absolutely all, and not just all in a general sense, is stressed by repeating the Hebrew word kol, which literally translates to the English word all. This is detailed in Ezekiel 47 by precisely defining a future border for the land, so precisely that, even to this day, it is possible to draw a map of that border.

Again, Isaiah 11, Ezekiel 37, and Zechariah 9, all extend these promises to the sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim. And there is absolutely nothing in the entire New Testament which provides even the slightest excuse for interpreting either of these names to mean the church. And again, Ezekiel 48 extends the promise to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name, specifying which portion of that plot defined in chapter 47 will be given to each of the twelve tribes.

And Zechariah 12 extends the promise to the families of the houses of David, Nathan, Levi, and Shimei. And there is simply no rational way to imagine that these refer to the church.






so
 
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Biblewriter

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Do you deny that the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ, as revealed by His words in Luke 24:25-27?


No, I agree with that statement.


Do you deny that the promises made to Abraham were made only to Christ, in Galatians 3:16?

They were indeed made to Christ, but not ONLY to Christ.


Do you deny that Christ said the "son" is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21 ?

The son in this parable was the heir to the vineyard, not to the land. Isaiah 5:7 EXPLICITLY says that "the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel."


Do you deny that we are told to avoid using genealogies in our faith in Titus 3:9?

The promises made to Israel were never made to us. You are equating apples and cannon balls.
 
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BABerean2

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No, I agree with that statement.




They were indeed made to Christ, but not ONLY to Christ.




The son in this parable was the heir to the vineyard, not to the land. Isaiah 5:7 EXPLICITLY says that "the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel."




The promises made to Israel were never made to us. You are equating apples and cannon balls.

Paul disagrees with you in Galatians 3:16, because he clearly says the promises were not made to "the many seeds".
Either Paul is wrong or you are wrong.

Hopefully, you do realize that the "vineyard" is in the "land".
He now owns the whole planet, because He bought it with His blood at Calvary.

Your last statement is a "us" vs. "them" (Israel) concept, which is based on a genealogy.
Thus far, you have not been able to define who is "us" vs. "them".
Even with modern DNA testing, you have never provided a standard when questioned about this in the past.
Therefore, your statement is meaningless.
You have no idea of the difference between an apple and a cannon ball.

If I have my DNA tested, how much of Abraham's DNA will it take to get me from the "us" category into the "Israel" group?

.
 
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