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New Perspective on Paul.

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Messianic Jewboy, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    So questioning replacement theology and having a Seder at your church once, qualifies you as a Messianic? Wow. The movement is much larger than I thought.

    But again, under your definition, a large percentage of the members of CF qualify for membership in the Messianic Judaism forum. :confused: So when do the multi-membership icons come out? Perhaps I could become a Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, Chassidic Messianic Gentile Rabbi... or rabbit. :D
     
  2. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    I asked you first. "Why can't a believer who calls himself a Baptist which also denotes he's a Christian be a Messianic believer in regards to replacement theology as an example. Why isn't it possible that a Baptist can worship on
    Sunday and also regard Jewish roots as important. An example would be Passover. You'd be surprised how many churches have a Seder because they realize the significance. They usually seek people from organizations that would lead the Seder. I know our congregation does Seders for churches around the area. "

    I just asked a question 'is it possible'. Are you going to address my question without a question. I said in regards too XYZ. I'm referring to Messisnic beliefs.

    Does one have to be all in Messianic Judaism or can one have some important Messianic beliefs such as against replacement theology, that Israel does have a significant role in God's plan of restoration and the like.

    And a related question... Can a chaplain or Pastor make potential impact with his sheep?
     
  3. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    I'm wondering whether the what constitutes an MJ and what doesn't topic should be pruned from this thread and a new thread started. Naturally our forum has an SOP which defines MJ for forum purposes. Then the OP could continue. In all cases we will be courteous and respectful with each other. We don't want to derail the thread on the Apostle Paul. Shalom.
     
  4. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    I asked first? Really? As if questions don't convey information too?

    I thought you might understand that I am talking about a faith group forum, not just background baggage. While I can pick and choose some things about any belief system that I agree with, the same does not work in a forum that has specific divisions based along denominational or faith group lines.

    Marc, it's already clear that many in this forum come from different backgrounds. That is not the issue in my way of thinking. But as a faith group forum, it is not enough to simply have a line. The line should be defined. In case you haven't noticed, this is precisely why we have had so many trolls cycling in and out of here.

    If being Messianic in terms of forum membership does not have any other requirements than what you have suggested, then I stand by my original assessment. You may as well give out Messianic rings in Cereal boxes. Perhaps some type of flavorful 'loops' might be appropriate. ;)
     
  5. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    Ok maybe I wasn't clear. I emphasized I hope between Messianic Judaism, Messianic and Messianic beliefs. I hope I didn't imply that Messianic beliefs are actually beliefs of Messianic Judaism. I also said that people use Messianic loosely.

    Thanks for bring it up though.
     
  6. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Lunch is over. OK Marc, you win. Anyone can play. No belief or lifestyle change required. Be the first Messianic on your block. All are welcome. :D
     
  7. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    Brothers, I really think we need to get back on topic. Swerving off is partially my fault so I'll take the hit on that but to do justice to the OP, we must come back to His topic. Thank you for your cooperation.

    Shalom
     
  8. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    I didn't say no belief or lifestyle change. I said there are Christians that don't support replacement theology and know that Israel has a significant role in God's plan of restoration. That is certainly a significant belief change wouldn't you think? I would say most definately a Messianic belief.

    I'll ask you again... Is it possible for a Christian to have this belief/s which is core in Messianic Judaism. Or are you saying that if a Christian or church has this belief/s they should come out of the church and join a Messianic Jewish congregation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I think what you noted here goes back to what has been said before when it comes to how many vehemently disagree with organizations central in the founding of MJism today such as the MJAA or the Hebrew Christian alliance and say that others apart of it cannot qualify as truly "Messianic" even though the overwhelming about of MJish congregations say otherwise. For the moment one goes the route of saying other MJish organizations are not Jewish and cannot define it fully for others since others are not represented, it opens the door for saying that others not fully in the Messianic Jewish camp as defined by the mainstream organizations have a say in being involved as well.

    It's like living in a country defining citizenship a certain way--but disagreeing with it due to many factors...and then choosing to step out of that zone and saying "You don't have to be within the boundaries of what that country defines to be a true citizen of things like they say" and noting where you/others are more representative of being citizens than others since you view yourself as the natural evolutionary step that things have gone into (and thinking the country you hailed from is outdated).... but then telling others also outside the zone that they don't have the right to do the same because they're in a camp out of the one you disagree with.

    This has come up in regards to other Messianic Jews who attend churches on Sunday because it's their preference...and yet they love TOrah, Judaic customs and live it out daily. Because they are outside the zone in the view of others who go to synagouge on Saturday, they are told that they cannot be "Messianic"/"Messianic Jewish"....but the same people are outside as well.
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Interesting points that you raise, as it concerns the ways that MJism is very much Reform Judaism in a myriad of ways.....and that the NPP does seem to go with that.
     
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Brother Mpossoff,

    Curious if you have ever been able to investigate these specific resources from Wright:


    As said in one of Wright's books:


    With the New Perspective of Paul, one of the central issues in debate is how is it that others are to see Israel--for whereas many see Paul supporting what most people in Christian Zionism do with saying the physical land of Israel is only for Jews/all others must leave, those seeing Paul as being open to it being more diverse fall on the other side of the debate and feel that Paul truly was for Judaism and yet felt that others disqualified themselves from inheriting it if they did not trust in Messiah...and that Paul would've been a Jewish theologian/consistent with the viewpoint just as there are others today who are in Judaism (such as many Orthodox Jews protesting against the State of Israel) and yet believe that those claiming Israel should be supported by all are wrong since they feel that they are currently in disobediance to what the Lord commanded to the Hebrews on what it took to remain in the Land.

    N.T. Wright has often come up in regards to others who may be against Zionism, as his NPP views are often used in support of others saying that Israel itself is far too restrictive and justifying of things done toward others that are not Biblical. There was actually a conference on the issue where I believe Wright may've been in attendance called "Christ at Checkpoint." And others sought to speak on the subject, including Dan Juster, in regards to how others needed to see Paul as supporting what other MJish believers feel with wanting the Promise Land to be for Jews. For more:





    Personally, I'm more than for the thought of how believers are to be in prayer for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122), although I'm also not of the mindset that all things done in the name of Jerusalem were ever things that the Lord himself was ever pleased with....or things he called us to support at the expense of knowing how to truly love others....an more of this was discussed elsewhere in other threads critiquing aspects of Zionism that've been damaging...and some of this reminds me of what others have noted when it comes to their own critiques of Christian Zionism. For reference, one can go here , here , here or here in #25 , #5 , #10 ,#180 ....and one can also see here in regards to what others such as John Hagaee and other Zionists do when having a Mercenary mindset toward Israel starting war so as to bring back Messsiah), as discussed more in-depth in threads such as "Standing with Israel" /Obama calls for a return to pre-1967 Israel and Beautiful Video on Jews and Arabs in Messiah.. .
    Where
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  12. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    Thank you for getting back on topic. I'll just list it again for those who have forgotten. This is a long thread. Shalom.

     
  13. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    .
     
  14. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    First post on CF is a plug for another website.

    Is this allowed?
     
  15. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    This is better that video doesn't represent the New Perspective.

    Paul And the Jewish Tradition - YouTube
     
  16. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    If I'm not mistaken, Kabbalah is one of the topics not allowed to be discussed in the forums...paticularly the Messianic Jewish one.
     
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    The mods generally place it as well as other things within the realm of "other religions"..universalism being one of them that has been banned alongside discussion on homosexuality. If the mods don't have an issue, however, that's another thing. The same in regards to whether the author of the OP feels that the topic is dealing with what his aim was initially when it came to seeing Paul as a Jewish theologian. There was at least one thread where the subject of Kabbalah was discussed at length amongst others who were Messianic Jews...as seen in the thread entitled Thoughts on the Kabbalah?

    But generally, it has been the case that Kabbalah has been considered as being another religion and one that cannot be actively promoted on the boards since the Messianic Judaism forums is a subset of Christianity as the administration see it while Kabbalah is not. The same goes for others promoting Judaism in the forum/discussing it without being Messianic Jewish members or posters since only Messianic members are allowed to actively promote teachings.
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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  19. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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  20. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Folks.
    Instead of arguing what belong or does not belong here please report or ask in MSC.

    Promotion of non-Messianic doctrines as well as non-Nicean doctrines is not allowed.

    I will be deleting some posts.

    SBjazzman, if you have questions please open a private thread in Members Services where we could discuss such things.

    Thank you.
    Ed
     
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