New Perspective on Paul.

[Messianic Jewboy]

Ah, Ok, so it would have been at that time period.







Would you agree that the original 11 plus Mattithias as well as His family members were a 'form' of a Messianic Sanhedrin at that time?

In Acts 15 we see Paul wanting to get the ok per se from the Council. To me it seems the Council after hearing Paul and Peter made their decision as a binding decree.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

OK Marc,

I'm sure you'll get around to my post sooner or later.

What post? I'll have to look.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

At 22 sec in, he makes a big deal of the fact that "a Jewish person" had been invited to speak on Paul. He doesn't say he is not a believer, but by not adding that qualifier, I have to wonder. Perhaps it was an ironic statement by a Jewish Christian.

Upon reviewing his website, I see no explicit reference to belief in Messiah--but he may just consider that beyond question, or too obvious to mention.

Ok I'm pretty sure Nanos isn't a believer.

 

[Lulav]

Thanks for that. But I wonder just how pervasive that understanding was. If you read the story of Nicodemus, he seemed fully convinced that salvation was a result of his being a Jew. Since he was of the Sanhedrin and was called a teacher of Israel by Y'shua, perhaps it was more pervasive than you might think.

As Y'shua posited otherwise, He indicating the process of being mikvahed in both water and the Spirit as being further requirements of salvation. Care to comment?

That's an interesting point Tal, I wouldn't say just being a Jew is what he believed brought salvation but an observant Jew perhaps?

 

[Lulav]

Please, call me Jerush or Jerushabelle. Belle always reminds me of Beauty and the Beast and my husband starts feeling and looking strange. LOL

How can I be Christian and Messianic? I hold with the MJAA and CF SoP:
"Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians)..." don't you?

I'm sorry Sister, but I look solely to Scripture in matters of faith and practice.

Paul may be mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't know for sure.

Three of the witnesses were Jewish/Christian and the fourth witness was the Son of God, both Divine and Jewish by birth of the tribe of Judah, the House of David. I forgot, there's a fifth witness as found in Acts 13, Ruach HaKodesh.

In Acts 9, Ananias and Yeshua are found to be two of the witnesses and Yeshua tells Ananias that He has chosen Paul.
In Acts 13, Ruach HaKodesh set apart Barnabas and Paul. Simeon called the Black and Lucius from Cyrene were witness to this as well as Manaen.
In 2Peter 3:14-16, Peter describes Paul as a Brother, using the wisdom God gave him. In verse 16 Peter states that Paul's writings are Scripture.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Thank you

 

[Yahudim]

That's an interesting point Tal, I wouldn't say just being a Jew is what he believed brought salvation but an observant Jew perhaps?

Well certainly. That's a given, Sis,

Obedience was always a part of the formula. You can find many more scriptures about obedience than you can about grace.

OK, assuming the above, Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin, came to Y'shua by night. Remember why? The majority of the rulers thought that they were fine because 1) the were the people of the promise and 2) the promise was the resurrection and 3) they were fully convinced that they kept the letter of the law. They weren't concerned about 'going to heaven'. That wasn't the plan. They were going to be resurrected to everlasting life on earth, in Israel, under the leadership of an unconquerable Messianic King where everyone would enjoy untold riches and luxury. Ahhh, the good life.

But Here comes Messiah teaching about the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. That is what piqued Nicodemus. He wanted to know how to get on the guest list. And that's why Y'shua answered as He did.

I posed this question because the NPP raised the point about Paul's perspective and apocalyptic expectations in the writing of his letters and the perspective of the Jews in general. I don't want this rabbit trail to turn into a hijack, just thought is a valid point in that context.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

That's an interesting point Tal, I wouldn't say just being a Jew is what he believed brought salvation but an observant Jew perhaps?

I don't think Nicodemus believed because he was a Torah observant Jew but being in the covenant.

Covenantal nomism is more than just being Jewish and not earning God's favor.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I posted a commentary from a Jewish site about the meaning and use of the idea of being 'reborn' in Judiasm. It refers to converting to Judaism and occurs after one comes up out of the immersion pool after conversion.

If this notion was current in Jesus' day, it would certainly explain Nicodemus' confusion.

'I was born Jewish (can I enter again my mother's womb?), why do I need to be 'born again?' (convert to Judaism.) Interesting aside: Jewishness is determined on the maternal side. Believe this was true in Second Temple times as well.

Subject: Beyond-Pshat - Parshas Haazinu (2) - Are We the Role Model to the
From: "Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky" <kalatsky@torah.org>
Date: Fri, September 13, 2002 8:53 am
To: beyond-pshat@torah.org

Teshuvah?

The Torah states in the beginning of Sefer Bereishis, "Bereishis bara Elokeem es ha'shamaiyim v'es ha'aretz: v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu v'vohu v'choshech al panei tahom v'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim
- In the beginning of G-d's creating the heavens and the earth - when the earth was empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters." The Midrash explains that each of the words in this opening verse of the Torah alludes to events that will take place in the future. Meaning, when G-d created existence, He preordained that certain events will happen.

The Midrash explains that "v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu - earth was empty," refers to the Babylonian exile. "Choshech - darkness," refers to the Greek exile; as the Talmud tells us, "they blackened our eyes with their decrees." "Al panei tahom- surface of the deep" alludes to the Roman exile, which is seemingly as endless as the "deep" source of water. (We are still experiencing the Roman exile after more than 2,000 years.) "V'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim - the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters" is ascribed to the spirit of Moshiach who will come only in the merit of teshuvah (repentance) which is compared to water (maiyim). As it is stated in Eicha, "Your heart should gush forth water when you stand before Hashem." Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuvah (The Laws of Teshuvah) that the confession that one makes during teshuvah must be in the presence of Hashem.

The question is what relevance does teshuvah have to water? Why is the statement "hovered upon the surface of the waters" an allusion to teshuvah?

Rambam states that if one attempts to do teshuvah but does not totally sever himself from his sinful past, then his teshuvah process is equivalent to immersing in a mikva (ritual pool) for the sake of purification, while still holding on to a rodent, which is the source of his spiritual contamination. Rambam is comparing the teshuvah process to the mikva itself. However, the verse from Eicha, which is cited by the Midrash, is indicating that the water itself is not the teshuvah but rather a consequence of the teshuvah. As it says, "your heart will gush forth water."

If one is spiritually contaminated, he must immerse himself completely in a mikvah in order to achieve spiritual purity. The Halacha (law) dictates that if there is as much as one hair of his body that is not
under water, he is not purified. The desired result is only achieved when one totally dunks himself. How do we understand the purification process of the mikva?

The Maharal of Prague (in his work on Chanukah) explains that humanity exists on dry land and not under water; therefore, the latter represents non-existence. When a person immerses himself in a body of water, in essence, he enters into a state of non-being. When he emerges, he enters a state of existence and is
considered a "bria chadasha - a new being". As such, whatever contamination he had prior to the immersion, no longer applies to him.

Dovid HaMelech says in Tehillim (Psalms), "A broken and shattered heart Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace." Rabbeinu Yona explains in his work Shaarei Teshuvah - The Gates of Repentance that the teshuvah process
only has meaning because of the Attribute of Mercy (Midas HaRachamim). However, within the context of Midas HaDin (The attribute of Justice) there is no place for teshuvah. Dovid revealed to us that if the person
is truly broken and shattered, as a result of the teshuvah process, even Elokeem (the Attribute of Justice) will not disgrace (reject) this person's teshuvah.

The Torah tells us that an earthenware vessel (after becoming contaminated) cannot be purified in a mikva. In order for it to become uncontaminated, it must be broken or shattered so it loses its function as a vessel. If it is reassembled, it is considered a new creation that
does not have relevance to the original vessel - and therefore it is pure. The same holds true for a person. If he is broken and remorseful because of his sins and does teshuvah, he is forgiven because when he
is broken he is the equivalent of the non-existent person. Therefore, after the process of teshuvah, the individual is a new person. Thus, because the sinner no longer exists, even the Attribute of Justice cannot prosecute the penitent.

We say in the tefillah of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that we are likened to a broken shard - "earthenware vessel". We identify with the purification process of the earthenware vessel because - "A broken heart Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace."

We can now understand why the Midrash compares the process of teshuvah with water. Just as when one immerses into the water, entering into a non-existent state and he emerges pure, so too does one need to be
broken and remorseful to the point that one's heart gushes forth water (tears) to indicate that he is totally broken. Thus, the "water" referred to in the Torah "hovered upon the surface of the waters" is
synonymous with the broken state of man when he is in a process of teshuvah.

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and Torah.org reserve certain rights. Email copyrights@torah.org for
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[Yahudim]

I posted a commentary from a Jewish site about the meaning and use of the idea of being 'reborn' in Judiasm. It refers to converting to Judaism and occurs after one comes up out of the immersion pool after conversion.

If this notion was current in Jesus' day, it would certainly explain Nicodemus' confusion.

'I was born Jewish (can I enter again my mother's womb?), why do I need to be 'born again?' (convert to Judaism.) Interesting aside: Jewishness is determined on the maternal side. Believe this was true in Second Temple times as well.

Absolutely. His perspective was that he was entitled under the covenant and doing everything he needed to do.

On your aside, that of course was the case after the Babylonian captivity. Before that time, there was a completely different dynamic in place.

 

[Yahudim]

Lulav, it looks like you fell into a vat of bleach!

Ps. It's really hard for this old man to read too.

 

[Norbert L]

How can you be a Christian and Messianic?

This reminds me of something a Polish friend of mine said. "If you're not Catholic, you can't be Polish", it was meant as a humorous close to life factual comment.

It was from a Messianic source that I first read about an observation about the verse: Acts 11:26 ... And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

It does not say they called themselves Christian first, however other evidence does say that was adopted as a label, 1 Pe 4:16.

 

[aniello]

This reminds me of something a Polish friend of mine said. "If you're not Catholic, you can't be Polish", it was meant as a humorous close to life factual comment.

It was from a Messianic source that I first read about an observation about the verse: Acts 11:26 ... And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

It does not say they called themselves Christian first, however other evidence does say that was adopted as a label, 1 Pe 4:16.

We used to be taught that the disciples and the earliest converts(believers) aound J'lem referred to themselves as "the Way".

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I posted a commentary from a Jewish site about the meaning and use of the idea of being 'reborn' in Judiasm. It refers to converting to Judaism and occurs after one comes up out of the immersion pool after conversion.

If this notion was current in Jesus' day, it would certainly explain Nicodemus' confusion.

'I was born Jewish (can I enter again my mother's womb?), why do I need to be 'born again?' (convert to Judaism.) Interesting aside: Jewishness is determined on the maternal side. Believe this was true in Second Temple times as well.

Interesting because NT Wright sort of says the same thing about 'works of the law' being ethnic. Most notably is circumcision, Brit Milah on the 8th day. In other words if this is correct then Paul means that justification doesn't come by being a Jew similar to your reference 'I was born Jewish (can I enter again my mother's womb?), why do I need to be 'born again?' (convert to Judaism.) Interesting aside: Jewishness is determined on the maternal side. Believe this was true in Second Temple times as well.

In other words 'I was born Jewish how can I be born again Jewish again since I was born Jewish to begin with?'

I was raised Jewish and Jews don't believe in a concept of salvation like Christianity does and the likes of Dunn and Sanders I can say are pretty close to correct that Judaism isn't a works based salvific 'religion' like most think. It's more in line with the coined phrase covenantal nomism concept. Even it you're a Jew not as observant as the orthodox the same concept applies. Even the orthodox still consider Jews who aren't as observant as them or who have forsaken the commandments still Jews but wayward.

So the article you posted makes sense and hits home with me, I relate to it.

Where the rubber meets the road in this discussion about the NPP is what is biblical. Is there valid biblical scriptural evidence and validity of conversion which the 'works of the law' represent as being a covenant member? Paul says 'the works of the law' doesn't justify only faith in Christ does. Another question if the 'works of the law' is true according to the early NPP is Paul being universal?

Here's the last point in covenantal nomism;

All those who are maintained in the covenant by obedience, atonement and God&#8217;s mercy belong to the group that will be saved. An important interpretation of the first and last points is that election and, ultimately, salvation are considered to be by God&#8217;s mercy rather than human achievement.

An interpretation of the above is;

&#8220;'Works of law' are nowhere understood here, either by his Jewish interlocutors or by Paul himself, as works which earn God's favor, as merit-amassing observances. They are rather seen as badges: they are simply what membership of the covenant people involves, what mark out the Jews as God's people...that God's grace extends only to those who wear the badge of the covenant."

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I posted a commentary from a Jewish site about the meaning and use of the idea of being 'reborn' in Judiasm. It refers to converting to Judaism and occurs after one comes up out of the immersion pool after conversion.

If this notion was current in Jesus' day, it would certainly explain Nicodemus' confusion.

Interesting that Messianic Judaism takes the reform Judaism approach.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Also don't know if it has to do with this discussion but Steve raised an interesting point about Jewishness. Reform Judaism is disconnected from
Orthodox and even Conservative Judaism. There's somewhat of a disconnect between Conservative and Orthodox but the meat that binds them together is 'who is a Jew', they are united with this. Reform Judaism isn't and this is a huge disconnect.

It seems like the NPP agrees with traditional Judaism in regards to the 'boundary markers' most notably circumcision. So this traditional Judaism would agree with.

Messianic Judaism from my experience is reform Judaism in regards to 'who is a Jew'. Convservative and Orthodox are united from the mother. Reform Judaism and Messianic Judaism are united that it's either matrilineal or patrilineal.
Since Israel rabbinate are Orthodox then it's from the mother.

Although I was raised between reform and conservative my family has taken the conservative belief in this regard. Also interesting that my brother considers himself conservative only in this regard but is reform in everything else.

Thinking out loud here.

 

[Chaplain David]

Hi Sacredote, I hope your Sunday is going well.

I don't mean to sound snarky but I did ask this of Jerusabelle in order to better understand her pov.

Sister you do not sound snarky to me. We are allowed to ask questions.

I thought one of the main things we were trying to do recently was to word our posts so as not to cause distention?

You are right and as we head down the road of revamping the forum it will become even more important.

I could read several things into being asked this by staff but I won't.

And I could read some things into why you might have an attitude against my question or staff but I won't do that. Instead, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assume your motives are proper and correct, proceed in fraternal fashion feeling accepted and cared for, and believe the best not consider the worst.

I will just say that 'most' members of this forum distinquish themselves 'by' being Messianic. That distinqtion mainly is that we (for the most part) don't believe that Yeshua did away with Torah. Now of course in recent days this definition of MJ has been challenged and given a different look.

Change is difficult. I have a hard time with change.

What I was asking Jerusabelle was because the way she labeled herself it was like someone saying, I'm a Baptist and a Christian. As you can see you would not find many people that would say such a thing. So I was wondering why she choose to label herself that way.

I have actually seen that before but not that often, yet, I am a Baptist and a Christian too. So, it's not really that unusual. I also have leanings toward other denominations. It's hard to put them all into one name at least for me.

To me, it seems to be saying that if you don't clarify this (and on a Messianic board one certainly doesn't have to explain what MJ is) it means that some that call themselves Messianic are not Christians. Do you see what I mean?

Yes I do. Let me use you and Belle as examples. This is just hypothetical.

I would not Belle to say anything that made you feel you were not also Christian and I would not want you to say anything that would make Belle think she is not MJ.

And...if either of you (hypothetically) said something and there was a misunderstanding I would want you both to be able to go back and talk about it, maybe in pm, and both talk it out then make up.

God bless you Sister Lulav.

Shalom

David

 

[Edial]

Hi folks.

CF's Statement of Faith is the Nicene Creed.
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0 (scroll down)

Nicene Creed is based on the Scriptures - both OT as well as NT.

Paul's writings are called Scriptures by Peter as well.
2Pt 3:14-16

It is CF's position that all of NT as well as OT writings are equally inspired by God.

Thank you.

Ed

 

[Yahudim]

*snip*​

Change is difficult. I have a hard time with change.



I have actually seen that before but not that often, yet, I am a Baptist and a Christian too. So, it's not really that unusual. I also have leanings toward other denominations. It's hard to put them all into one name at least for me.



Yes I do. Let me use you and Belle as examples. This is just hypothetical.

I would not Belle to say anything that made you feel you were not also Christian and I would not want you to say anything that would make Belle think she is not MJ.

And...if either of you (hypothetically) said something and there was a misunderstanding I would want you both to be able to go back and talk about it, maybe in pm, and both talk it out then make up.

*snip*​

So David, this brings up another question. What is it in your mind that defines a Christian as Messianic? There has to be something other than vague 'leanings' when it comes to a forum setting, right? Otherwise, anyone can say that they are Messianic - just because. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of being Messianic. Without some kind of doctrinal understanding of what makes a Christian a Messianic, you may as well hand out Messianic rings in cereal boxes.

To me, this is reminiscent of the person that tells me that they believe in Jesus, therefore they are a Christian. My usual response is that scripture teaches that even the demons in hell believe and they are not Christians. What else makes you a Christian?

 

[Yahudim]

EH?

She changed the colors of her profile so that I can barely see her pic and read posts anymore.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

So David, this brings up another question. What is it in your mind that defines a Christian as Messianic? There has to be something other than vague 'leanings' when it comes to a forum setting, right? Otherwise, anyone can say that they are Messianic - just because. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of being Messianic. Without some kind of doctrinal understanding of what makes a Christian a Messianic, you may as well hand out Messianic rings in cereal boxes.

To me, this is reminiscent of the person that tells me that they believe in Jesus, therefore they are a Christian. My usual response is that scripture teaches that even the demons in hell believe and they are not Christians. What else makes you a Christian?

I'm going to step in. There are doctrinal statements that say Messianic Judaism is part of the body. Messianic is too loose of a term almost meaning a denomination. What is a Messianic believer? It could be a badge that one keeps Shabbat as an example. But does it in reality?

Why can't a believer who calls himself a Baptist which also denotes he's a Christian be a Messianic believer in regards to replacement theology as an example. Why isn't it possible that a Baptist can worship on
Sunday and also regard Jewish roots as important. An example would be Passover. You'd be surprised how many churches have a Seder because they realize the significance. They usually seek people from organizations that would lead the Seder. I know our congregation does Seders for churches around the area.

The question is... Does one need to be a leftist? Or do you have to be in Messianic Judaism all the way to be considered a Messianic believer? I see a lot of animosity from those that were in Christianity. Most Jews probably all that I know found the Lord with help of Christians. Now I will say that there are Christians and congregations that are anti-Semitic, believe they replaced Israel...

I think sarcedote well deserves grace in this regard.