New Perspective on Paul.

[Henaynei]

I agree that Moses being taught refers to the commandments, however Paul did not teach that. James is the one who made that statement and it was because it was common understanding of the Jewish believers that they should be taken to the synagogues on Shabbat to learn more.

My bad... You're right.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Thanks for that. But I wonder just how pervasive that understanding was. If you read the story of Nicodemus, he seemed fully convinced that salvation was a result of his being a Jew. Since he was of the Sanhedrin and was called a teacher of Israel by Y'shua, perhaps it was more pervasive than you might think.

As Y'shua posited otherwise, He indicating the process of being mikvahed in both water and the Spirit as being further requirements of salvation. Care to comment?

I would say it's popular among the likes of Messianic organizations who support a Torah is only for the Jews. Also possibly among the non believing Jewish community.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc what 'time' period are you referring to, the first century or now? Wouldn't that mean like bringing everyone to the same page, but if Paul taught Gentiles didn't need to do as the Jews did, how would that bring Tikkun olam?

This 'present and evil age' Paul refers too.

Acts 15 was not written by Paul, nor was the decree made by him.

I used the decree in Acts 15 as an example. Paul I think in Corinthians teaches from the Torah 'honor your mother and father...'

I agree that Moses being taught refers to the commandments, however Paul did not teach that. James is the one who made that statement and it was because it was common understanding of the Jewish believers that they should be taken to the synagogues on Shabbat to learn more.

Sure what we see Paul doing is teaching the Gentiles biblical principles from the TaNaK in the same way the Council came up with their decision from the scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Council and Paul didn't come up with their things out of thin air.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Here's a video with Nanos. The meat if the video starts at 9 minutes. Prior to 9 minutes Nanos explains the Shema. You can listen to it or watch it.

Paul And the Jewish Tradition - YouTube

 

[Jerushabelle]

Some questions for you belle,

How can you be a Christian and Messianic? I am asking so I can better understand your posts.

There are many other writings that mention Paul, in fact I think I read somewhere that Paul is mentioned more in secular literature than Jesus. Some believe he is also mentioned in the DSS.

I'm having some trouble understanding this part of your post:



You say the four witnesses to Paul being an Apostle of Yeshua are
Ananias, Peter and Barnabas and Yeshua. Three were Christians, what was the forth?

Also can you give passage reference where these four say he was chosen by Yeshua?

Please, call me Jerush or Jerushabelle. Belle always reminds me of Beauty and the Beast and my husband starts feeling and looking strange. LOL

How can I be Christian and Messianic? I hold with the MJAA and CF SoP:
"Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians)..." don't you?

I'm sorry Sister, but I look solely to Scripture in matters of faith and practice.

Paul may be mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't know for sure.

Three of the witnesses were Jewish/Christian and the fourth witness was the Son of God, both Divine and Jewish by birth of the tribe of Judah, the House of David. I forgot, there's a fifth witness as found in Acts 13, Ruach HaKodesh.

In Acts 9, Ananias and Yeshua are found to be two of the witnesses and Yeshua tells Ananias that He has chosen Paul.
In Acts 13, Ruach HaKodesh set apart Barnabas and Paul. Simeon called the Black and Lucius from Cyrene were witness to this as well as Manaen.
In 2Peter 3:14-16, Peter describes Paul as a Brother, using the wisdom God gave him. In verse 16 Peter states that Paul's writings are Scripture.

I hope I have answered your questions.

 

[Yahudim]

I would say it's popular among the likes of Messianic organizations who support a Torah is only for the Jews. Also possibly among the non believing Jewish community.

I'm not sure I understand. Who believes what exactly? Please be a little more specific.

 

[mishkan]

Here's a video with Nanos. The meat if the video starts at 9 minutes. Prior to 9 minutes Nanos explains the Shema. You can listen to it or watch it.

Paul And the Jewish Tradition - YouTube

Do I understand him correctly? Nanos says he is a non-Messianic Jewish person?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Do I understand him correctly? Nanos says he is a non-Messianic Jewish person?

Did he say that in the video?

 

[mishkan]

Did he say that in the video?

At 22 sec in, he makes a big deal of the fact that "a Jewish person" had been invited to speak on Paul. He doesn't say he is not a believer, but by not adding that qualifier, I have to wonder. Perhaps it was an ironic statement by a Jewish Christian.

Upon reviewing his website, I see no explicit reference to belief in Messiah--but he may just consider that beyond question, or too obvious to mention.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

At 22 sec in, he makes a big deal of the fact that "a Jewish person" had been invited to speak on Paul. He doesn't say he is not a believer, but by not adding that qualifier, I have to wonder. Perhaps it was an ironic statement by a Jewish Christian.

Upon reviewing his website, I see no explicit reference to belief in Messiah--but he may just consider that beyond question, or too obvious to mention.

Him being Jewish is the reason for a new NPP . He is inline with Judaism per se. As I said it's a shift towards the middle whether you agree with it or not. Not all NPP is shifting. What I think is good about this new NPP is that there are lot of Messianic believers who reject Paul and anti missionaries use Paul a lot. Not sure if all the new NPP are Jewish scholars. It's taking the core of the NPP and adding more explains on Dunn's covenantal nomism.

Here's a book review for Eisenbaum on the Paul Page.

Paul Was Not a Christian: The Original Message of a Misunderstood Apostle | The Paul Page

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I'm seeing that you can't say the NPP means XYZ unless you name the theologian. I like Wright;

"Turning to the role of the law in the third chapter of Galatians, Wright argues that the central issue for Paul is the covenantal issue of how to define the people of God in light of the coming of Christ.108 If they are to be defined in terms of those symbols that marked off the people of God in the old covenant (e.g. circumcision, Torah, Temple, etc), then such a definition would contradict God’s original promise to Abraham (as that promise was a reaffirmation of the original promise to Adam) that he would be the father of a worldwide covenant family. In a 1997 work, Wright argues that Gal 2:11f deals with this very issue.109 Paul is not addressing the issue of how someone becomes a Christian or finds acceptance before God (contra Sanders). Rather, the issue Paul deals with at Antioch is the covenantal issue of how to define the people of God."

The above foundation comes from Sanders and Dunn but adds more specific. The likes of Nanos the foundation is Sanders and Dunn with the Wright's being more specific and adding even more.

In my opinion the above quote combats the two house movement. That God is the God of Israel only. That Paul's theology is centered around Abraham mostly.

For me since the likes of Nanos adds a more ethnocentric element to Sanders, Dunn and Wright for the sake of this discussion I'd prefer to stay within Wright framework because it moves into a Torah discussion and whether or not non Jews are to keep the Torah or not which wasn't my initial intention of discussion.

I prefer to leave it up to the individual and don't want to sabatoge it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Nanos' bio on his website says he is Reform Jewish.

He is not a Messianic.

 

[Chaplain David]

I believe so, Chaplain, but I also believe from Scripture's lesson that God and Yeshua can choose to work/communicate through us individually via Ruach HaKodesh or, in Paul's case, directly. And since Ruach HaKodesh, who leads us into all understanding of Scripture, is in all time and place and culture just as God and Yeshua are, His leading is applicable to God's people in whatever time they exist.

I believe this too.

 

[Chaplain David]

Some questions for you belle,

How can you be a Christian and Messianic? I am asking so I can better understand your posts....

Good morning sister Lulav,

I've been doing a little reading and came to your post quoted above. I do not understand what you mean because many people have told me that it is broadly accepted in MJ circles that Messianic Jews are Christians. In fact one of the members told me in a way that made sense that MJ is a branch of Christianity.

All of these things being the case and our SOP also noting that MJ is a part of Christianity:

Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.

what is meant by your question quoted above? I could read several different things into it but would rather hear your opinion.

Shalom

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Good morning sister Lulav,

I've been doing a little reading and came to your post quoted above. I do not understand what you mean because many people have told me that it is broadly accepted in MJ circles that Messianic Jews are Christians. In fact one of the members told me in a way that made sense that MJ is a branch of Christianity.

All of these things being the case and our SOP also noting that MJ is a part of Christianity:

Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.

what is meant by your question quoted above? I could read several different things into it but would rather hear your opinion.

Shalom

Some it seems wouldn't think it a possibility. I agree that SoP. I used to think that of you're not in Messianic Judaism 'you're missing the truth.

In your case being a Baptist I do believe Jewish roots can be incorporated.

 

[Chaplain David]

Some it seems wouldn't think it a possibility. I agree that SoP. I used to think that of you're not in Messianic Judaism 'you're missing the truth.

In your case being a Baptist I do believe Jewish roots can be incorporated.

I agree and have heard of it being done. In fact, I think I am beginning the process. This is something I was looking at earlier today. It is called the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship http://www.sbmessianic.net/

 

[Yahudim]

Nanos' bio on his website says he is Reform Jewish.

He is not a Messianic.

Thank you Steve.

 

[Yahudim]

OK Marc,

I'm sure you'll get around to my post sooner or later.

 

[Lulav]

This 'present and evil age' Paul refers too.

Ah, Ok, so it would have been at that time period.

Sure what we see Paul doing is teaching the Gentiles biblical principles from the TaNaK in the same way the Council came up with their decision from the scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Council and Paul didn't come up with their things out of thin air.

Would you agree that the original 11 plus Mattithias as well as His family members were a 'form' of a Messianic Sanhedrin at that time?

 

[Lulav]

Good morning sister Lulav,

I've been doing a little reading and came to your post quoted above. I do not understand what you mean because many people have told me that it is broadly accepted in MJ circles that Messianic Jews are Christians. In fact one of the members told me in a way that made sense that MJ is a branch of Christianity.

All of these things being the case and our SOP also noting that MJ is a part of Christianity:

Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.

what is meant by your question quoted above? I could read several different things into it but would rather hear your opinion.

Shalom

Hi Sacredote, I hope your Sunday is going well.

I don't mean to sound snarky but I did ask this of Jerusabelle in order to better understand her pov. I thought one of the main things we were trying to do recently was to word our posts so as not to cause distention?

I could read several things into being asked this by staff but I won't.
I will just say that 'most' members of this forum distinquish themselves 'by' being Messianic. That distinqtion mainly is that we (for the most part) don't believe that Yeshua did away with Torah. Now of course in recent days this definition of MJ has been challenged and given a different look.

What I was asking Jerusabelle was because the way she labeled herself it was like someone saying, I'm a Baptist and a Christian. As you can see you would not find many people that would say such a thing. So I was wondering why she choose to label herself that way. To me, it seems to be saying that if you don't clarify this (and on a Messianic board one certainly doesn't have to explain what MJ is) it means that some that call themselves Messianic are not Christians. Do you see what I mean?