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Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Tishri1, Mar 23, 2016.

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  1. Tishri1

    Tishri1 CF Owner's Advisory Team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    That would work...but let me get @Lulav see what she thinks....
     
  2. Shibolet

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    What did Jesus do to earn the requirements to be called the Messiah? When Moses went on his mission from HaShem to Egypt to perform the Exodus of the Israelites from captivity, the people thought he was the Messiah and, he ended up being only a Messianic leader.

    Later already in the Land of Israel, the Jews were exiled to Babylon for 70 years. At the end of the exile, king Cyrus proclaimed freedom for the Jews and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. For that, he won the title of a Messianic leader according to Isaiah 45:1.

    The third time around, when Jesus was born, Israel was under foreign occupation and, that occupation only got worse during Jesus' lifetime. When he died, Israel was destroyed and the Temple destroyed for another 2000 years. Now, please tell me what did Jesus do deserve the title of Messiah?
     
  3. Shibolet

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    True that Yeshua was a Jew but, what I do not understand is why other Jews need to have faith in Yeshua. BTW, it would be the same as to have faith in the dead. We all know that Yeshua is dead for about 2000 years. I am also aware that the NT claims that he resurrected. However, he was a loyal and learned Jew aware that, once dead, no one will ever return. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc)
     
  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    It may be easier to begin to understand Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus as having performed the role of
    Moshiach ben Ephrayim / Yosef/ Messiah son of Joseph, than to immediately understand how he both is, and will soon be recognized as Moshiach ben David?

    I first contacted Rabbi Yeshayahu Hollander back in 2010 after having participated on
    one of the official Sanhedrin discussion forums for some time. On the forum I was told to
    write to Rabbi Hollander, so I did.

    This was my first message to him:




     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus made it clear that he was
    human, and that it was the Ancient of Days the Father who was
    doing the miracles that he performed.

    He even stated clearly that he himself, was not inherently "good" and that
    only G-d / HaShem was "good."

    But he made certain claims that fit with a statement in the Book of Baruch, the
    scribe of Jeremiah that seems to be corroborated by some rather expert witnesses,
    such as former Atheist Howard Storm whose life was utterly transformed after his
    brush with death and his meeting with a being of light, who Howard felt was
    Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus in his eternal form.

    Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Prophecy Of Baruch Chapter 6

    [6] "For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

    John 5:22

    "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgmentunto the Son:"

    Howard Storm Ph. D. is an exceptionally credible witness. In his book "My Descent Into Death"
    Howard actually goes into just about every other possible explanation for his
    meeting with a being of light who loved him that he could think of........ and Ossam's
    Razor type thinking indicated that the simplest explanation, was that his
    experience was real, and would fit with certain statements in the Jewish Bible.

    2Kings 6:12

    "And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber."

    Howard was more likely familiar with the words of the Apostle Paul by the time
    that he wrote his book.

    2Corinthians 12:2

    "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

    IF..... Howard STorm Ph. D. is correct... that it was indeed Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus, who met with him during his near death experience..... then to my thinking....... this is evidence that he is serving in the capacity of Moshiach ben David/ Messiah son of David.

    It is based on my firm belief that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus played out the role of "Moshiach the Passover Lamb" that I personally decided back in 1990 to submit my audition for a role somewhat like Barabbas / Bar Abbas....... except on a voluntary basis....... rather than drafted as Barabbas / Bar Abbas had been.

    Since that time I have came to understand that all Messianic Gentiles, Messianic Jews and Christians like myself...... we are all similar to Barabbas / Bar Abbas..... we are all metaphorical Yom Kippur "goats for Azazel"..... but many of us have some difficulty accepting the rather scary implications of that reality.

    John 8:44

    "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    I personally.... watched the devil's movies, read his books, drank his metaphorical wine.......... and of course.... I became more and more like him...... and if it were not for the grace of the Ancient of Days the Father as shown through Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his permanent form.... I believe that i am quite capable of acts similar to that of the historical Barabbas / Bar Abbas.

    Oh... .and for a more full answer to your question you may wish to Google the name Ms. Beverly Brodsky. Like Howard Storm Ph. D. Ms. Brodsky had a near death experience...... she blasted the being of light for allowing all the injustice of history especially the holocaust........ and she mentions specifically that the being of light who answered all of her questions...... did not..... .tell her his name! Could it be that many of us Christians are a little dogmatic and simplistic in our understanding of some of the statements by the Apostle Paul....... who even Apostle Cephas / Peter stated was difficult to understand some of the time??????
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  6. Shibolet

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    I don't have to Google any one else if I have the Scriptures before me. It does not matter how many Ph. D's. they have. Whatever they have to say is according to Christian preconceived notions. The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach.. If you want to convince me about any thing, you must use the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach.
     
  7. Shibolet

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    Messiah ben Joseph WAS Israel aka Ephraim and Messiah ben David IS Judah. To assume that Yeshua performed the role of Mashiah ben Ephraim is simply an assumption based on Christian preconceived notions.
     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    That is a valid point .... but isn't a time predicted when the most feeble resident of Jerusalem will attain a level of spiritual guidance from G-d that will be on a par with King David of Israel?

    Was Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus the most feeble Jewish scholar to ever walk down the streets of Jerusalem?

    Zechariah 12:8

    "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Personally.... I was thinking that Moshiach ben Ephrayim / Yosef would
    be a separate individual from Ephrayim who would do a better job of
    addressing his own weakness toward idolatry in all of its many forms.

    To a degree... I do believe that the tribes of Ephraim and Judah are fulfilling a larger Moshiach ben Yosef plus Moshiach ben David role.......... and individuals within those tribes....... are working on behalf of their ancestors. I remember a prophecy about Moshiach ben Ephrayim somehow making up for the sins of King Jereboam of Israel who led the ten tribes into apostasy in so many ways.

    Hosea 4:17

    "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone."

    Moshiach son of Yosef / Joseph will have a tendency toward repentance....
    (is the Hebrew word for repentance Teshuvah)?


    Jeremiah 31:18

    "I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God."

    You do have a point though..... a simplistic equating of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus with Moshiach ben Ephrayim presents certain theological problems for a Messianic Gentile like myself.

    Frankly... Isaiah 45:4.5 indicate that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus almost certainly does not perfectly fit with the Cyrus type, who to at least some degree is linked to Messiah son of Joseph..... but.... if the being of light of NDE fame who met with Howard Storm Ph. D. was indeed Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus as Howard thought it was....... then Messiah treating an Atheist with such understanding and mercy is certainly a very "Cyrus" type of behaviour. Cyrus gave freedom of religion, not only to Jews, but to all 127 provinces in the Medo - Persian Empire.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  10. Shibolet

    Shibolet Member

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    Last edited: Dec 27, 2016
  11. Lulav

    Lulav Ephesians 6:12 Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    closed for review 2.jpg
     
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