New Jerusalem will never be on this earth

[Rev20]

It is not Mars. It is new Earth. There is no sun or moon there. For there is no night there. The vert concept of Darkness is not in that Country. It is a completely new order of creation ex nihilo.

It is all about the physical vs spiritual temple. The spiritual temple has no need for the 'brasen sea" written of in the Old Testament regarding the physical temple; therefore, as John wrote:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." -- Rev 21:1​

 

[m423156]

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Rev20]

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In that passage you can see it is all about the old physical temple worship being done away with; and the new temple, made not with men's hands, replacing it. It is all about the temple. The hints are everywhere.

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men." -- Ps 11:4​

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." -- Isa 28:16​

"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." -- Eze 37:26-28​

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body." -- John 2:19-21​

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" -- Matt 24:1-3​

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;" -- Matt 27:51​

"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things?" -- Acts 7:48-50​

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" -- Acts 17:24​

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." -- 1Cor 3:16-17​

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" -- 1Cor 6:19​

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." -- 2Cor 6:16​

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Eph 2:19-22​

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." -- 1Pet 2:6​

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." -- Rev 11:19​

"And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:" -- Rev 15:5​

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." -- Rev 21:3​

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." -- Rev 21:22​

.

Again, it is all about the temple. The old heaven, earth and sea was the physical temple; the new heaven and earth (no more sea) is the spiritual temple of our bodies, and the body of Christ. The earth abideth forever, as does the church and the world:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -- Gen 1:31​

"And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever." -- Ps 78:69​

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecc 1:4​

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." -- Isa 45:18​

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." -- John 3:17​

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Eph 3:21​

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." -- Rev 11:15​

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." -- Rev 22:2​

It is men who have condemned the world, not Christ. He was sent to save and heal it.

 

[m423156]

The promises of New Heaven and New Earth are true in promise, but are not yet fulfilled. For there is one enemy remaining -- death. This is the sea and abyss that is not found in the new heavens and earth.

But we see not all the former things passed away as of yet, for sin and death yet are, and the abyss yet is, and the former heavens and earth yet are.

New Jerusalem does not ascend in the former heavens and earth where we yet are. It remains for the new heavens and earth where there is no need for light from a sun, there is no such thing as darkness in any form. Yet we still see all things.

New Jerusalem does not pertain to this earth, but new earth. Nor is it even a 'renewed' earth, for the former heaven and earth are passed away.Nor is is an ideological heaven and earth, for death, night, sorrow and pain are not only ideological but holistic at every plane of existence. And these prophecies pertain holistically to every plane of existence, not simply the ideological world. New Creation is more than at the ideological level, it is at the actual level.

1[bless and do not curse]And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And there was no more sea.

2[bless and do not curse]Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared like a bride having been adorned for her husband.

3[bless and do not curse]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them.

4[bless and do not curse]And He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying out; neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away."

 

[Rev20]

The promises of New Heaven and New Earth are true in promise, but are not yet fulfilled. For there is one enemy remaining -- death. This is the sea and abyss that is not found in the new heavens and earth.

But we see not all the former things passed away as of yet, for sin and death yet are, and the abyss yet is, and the former heavens and earth yet are.

New Jerusalem does not ascend in the former heavens and earth where we yet are. It remains for the new heavens and earth where there is no need for light from a sun, there is no such thing as darkness in any form. Yet we still see all things.

New Jerusalem does not pertain to this earth, but new earth. Nor is it even a 'renewed' earth, for the former heaven and earth are passed away.Nor is is an ideological heaven and earth, for death, night, sorrow and pain are not only ideological but holistic at every plane of existence. And these prophecies pertain holistically to every plane of existence, not simply the ideological world. New Creation is more than at the ideological level, it is at the actual level.

1[bless and do not curse]And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And there was no more sea.

2[bless and do not curse]Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared like a bride having been adorned for her husband.

3[bless and do not curse]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them.

4[bless and do not curse]And He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying out; neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Except for adding words to the scripture, you have said very little. For example, explain these statements:

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it." -- Rev 21:24-26​

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." -- Rev 22:2​

If there will be a brand-spanking new heaven and earth in the physical sense, why are there still nations and kings, and why do the nations need to be healed? Shouldn't all that have passed away?

 

[m423156]

Unless you have no more death, sorrow, pain, no more sun, no more sea, and the former heavens and earth passed away, you are not in New Jerusalem descending.

It does not descend upon this present earth. And only adding to scripture can make it do so.

 

[Interplanner]

Rev20
You're a little anachronistic here. In the Rev the dominant use of the symbol of the sea was just the wild unbelieving world. Your belief that it suddenly switches to the old temple's sea in 20:1 is inconsistent. You said that paragraph was about the replacing temple. That is inconsistent too. I don't see it at all.

What there is about the temple is down at v22. Fine to mention it at that point, but not to shift the normal meaning of sea (or the Revelation) meaning.

In the psyche of Judaism, especially from the Psalms, the sea is a chaotic force about which there is a latent fear of it overrunning its place, as in Noah's flood. This is the background of the fear of the disciples in the accounts of calming the sea. This is why it comes up in this common sense in the Rev. In the new creation, there is no sea means there is no chaotic world force out of control of the Creator. The beast came out of the sea; the new creation is so completely new there is no sea.

'thalassa' is not the term used for the basin in the temple, acc. to B-A-G lexicon.

But v3 is partly a quote of Lv 26 and 2 Chr 6 and Ezek 37 and Zech 2 about dwelling with (as with a tent 'skeno'). Perhaps that is what you had in mind, but the new temple is still weakened by 'thalassa' and by v22.

 

[BobRyan]

New Jerusalem does not descend on this heaven and earth. This heaven and earth is ordained to pass away by fire. There is a completely new heaven and earth constituting an entire new universe and cosmic order of heaven.

Therefore, those who teach that New Jerusalem will be established on this earth are adding to the word and contradicting it. They are found to be false teachers and false prophets.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. - Revelation 21​

Certainly the text above makes it clear that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven - to this earth - the New Earth will have the New Jerusalem on it.

God's dwelling after the 1000 years - is here on earth - with men.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[m423156]

Certainly the text above makes it clear that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven - to this earth - the New Earth will have the New Jerusalem on it.

God's dwelling after the 1000 years - is here on earth - with men.

in Christ,

Bob

Certainly it does not make clear that New Jerusalem comes down to this earth. This present heaven and earth is the one that is ordained to pass away by fire.

Certainly the text emphatically states that it is in the new heaven and the new earth. Certainly the text states that this present heaven and earth is the former that will pass away being the place where sin, the curse, sorrow, pain and death all reside.

Certainly.

 

[Rev20]

Rev20
You're a little anachronistic here. In the Rev the dominant use of the symbol of the sea was just the wild unbelieving world.

There is no mention of the word "sea" as a wild, unbelieving world.

Rev20
Your belief that it suddenly switches to the old temple's sea in 20:1 is inconsistent. You said that paragraph was about the replacing temple. That is inconsistent too. I don't see it at all.

I don't believe I mentioned chapter 20. Chapters 21 and 22 are referring to the new temple, which is the throne of God and of the Lamb, and to the healing stream that flows out of the new temple.

Rev20
What there is about the temple is down at v22. Fine to mention it at that point, but not to shift the normal meaning of sea (or the Revelation) meaning.

The reference to the temple begins early on in Rev 21:3, unless Paul was mistaken when he wrote this:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." -- 1Cor 3:16-17​

Rev20
In the psyche of Judaism, especially from the Psalms, the sea is a chaotic force about which there is a latent fear of it overrunning its place, as in Noah's flood.

In the Revelation the word "sea" has many meanings, including the actual watery sea, as we know it. But Revelation 21 and 22 are referring to the holy temple and the river of water of life that flows out of it to heal the nations. The old temple required a "sea." The new temple does not.

Besides, nothing else fits the context of Rev 21:1. Immediately after mentioning the word "sea," John is talking about the church and the temple.
.

Rev20
This is the background of the fear of the disciples in the accounts of calming the sea. This is why it comes up in this common sense in the Rev. In the new creation, there is no sea means there is no chaotic world force out of control of the Creator. The beast came out of the sea; the new creation is so completely new there is no sea.

That is a possible context elsewhere, but I don't see that in this context.
.

Rev20
'thalassa' is not the term used for the basin in the temple, acc. to B-A-G lexicon.

The Greek word means "sea," as in water, with a possible link to the primary word for "salt." So, if we go with the Greek, neither of us are correct. So, we have to decide which parts are literal and which parts are figurative; and if figurative, which "figure". LOL!
.

Rev20
But v3 is partly a quote of Lv 26 and 2 Chr 6 and Ezek 37 and Zech 2 about dwelling with (as with a tent 'skeno'). Perhaps that is what you had in mind, but the new temple is still weakened by 'thalassa' and by v22.

Your argument is also weakened by "thalassa," so I am asking, which verses are literal, and which are spiritual?

For the record, all of those verses you referenced are referring to the body of Christians (the body of Christ) being the temple of God: even verse 22. Otherwise, this is meaningless:

"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Eph 2:18-22 KJV​

This is what John said:

• I saw no temple therein.
• The throne of God and of the lamb are the temple.
• The river of water of life flows out of the throne of God and of the Lamb
• The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in [the holy City]

So . . .

• There is a temple, but it is not a physical temple.
• It is the throne of God and it is in the Holy City.
• Therefore the temple is in the Holy City.
• We also know that Christians are part of the holy temple, builded together as an habitation of God.
• Therefore, the throne of God and of the Lamb also dwells within Christians.
• And, the tabernacle of God is with men, and God dwells with us.

It is all spiritual, and it is all saying the same thing.

 

[Rev20]

Certainly the text above makes it clear that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven - to this earth - the New Earth will have the New Jerusalem on it.

God's dwelling after the 1000 years - is here on earth - with men.

in Christ,

Bob

God already dwells on earth, and with men. It is called New Jerusalem, or the Church. The Church existed at least from the day of Pentecost when God, aka the Holy Ghost, entered into the bodies of the apostles. From there, the Holy Ghost, also known as the "river of water of life," flowed out of their "bellies" to all the world:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- John 7:37-39​

That fulfilled the prophecy of Joel that Peter mentioned in Acts 2, but also this prophecy of Zechariah:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zec 14:8​

This is the church, from Paul's perspective. Note that he writes in the present tense:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." -- Heb 12:22-24​

​

John saw that in a vision, while in the spirit. It never mentions that it came to earth, but the Church most certainly exists in both the heaven and the earth.

But, in all cases, those are God's Words. Paul and John are scribes, in a manner of speaking.

 

[m423156]

The Sea is all that which separates man from God's presence.

In the beginng, the Spirit of God hovered above the waters. Noah had to pass the abyss of the seas to be saved from destruction. The Children of Israel had to cross the Red Sea to come out of Egypt. The priests had to wash in the brazen sea to come into God's presence.Christ had to come up out of the waters of Baptism to receive the Holy Spirit. The redeemed must stand upon the crystalline sea mingled with fire to stand before their father. And in the new heavens and earth, there is no more sea, for that which separates man and God has been done away.

And even in Christ, death itself has not been done away with. Therefore, we are not in new heavens and new earth, though we yet have the promise of new heavens and earth and no death or dying in Christ. We are not in new Jerusalem as yet and will not be until we are actually in New Heaven and Earth.

 

[riverrat]

God already dwells on earth, and with men. It is called New Jerusalem, or the Church. The Church existed at least from the day of Pentecost when God, aka the Holy Ghost, entered into the bodies of the apostles. From there, the Holy Ghost, also known as the "river of water of life," flowed out of their "bellies" to all the world:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- John 7:37-39​

That fulfilled the prophecy of Joel that Peter mentioned in Acts 2, but also this prophecy of Zechariah:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zec 14:8​

This is the church, from Paul's perspective. Note that he writes in the present tense:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." -- Heb 12:22-24​

​

John saw that in a vision, while in the spirit. It never mentions that it came to earth, but the Church most certainly exists in both the heaven and the earth.

But, in all cases, those are God's Words. Paul and John are scribes, in a manner of speaking.

Yes, the scripture is God's word but the commentary is man's word.

 

[Rev20]

Yes, the scripture is God's word but the commentary is man's word.

Are you going to join in the debate, Rat, or are you going to continue sniping from the sidelines?

 

[Rev20]

The Sea is all that which separates man from God's presence.

In the beginng, the Spirit of God hovered above the waters. Noah had to pass the abyss of the seas to be saved from destruction. The Children of Israel had to cross the Red Sea to come out of Egypt. The priests had to wash in the brazen sea to come into God's presence.Christ had to come up out of the waters of Baptism to receive the Holy Spirit. The redeemed must stand upon the crystalline sea mingled with fire to stand before their father. And in the new heavens and earth, there is no more sea, for that which separates man and God has been done away.

And even in Christ, death itself has not been done away with. Therefore, we are not in new heavens and new earth, though we yet have the promise of new heavens and earth and no death or dying in Christ. We are not in new Jerusalem as yet and will not be until we are actually in New Heaven and Earth.

Do you believe men will no longer die physical deaths in the so-called "New Heavens and New Earth?" Isaiah seemed to think they would:

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." -- Isa 65:17-20​

I all boils down to which parts are literal and which parts are spiritual?

 

[m423156]

The New Heavens and New Earth wherein New Jerusalem descends have no death or sorrow of any kind, including physical death.

And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the former things are passed away. - Revelation 21.

 

[Rev20]

The New Heavens and New Earth wherein New Jerusalem descends have no death or sorrow of any kind, including physical death.

And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the former things are passed away. - Revelation 21.

Taken literally, you would be correct. But taken literally, the holy city New Jerusalem would also be an enormous cube, extending over 1500 miles in all directions, including upward.

How would the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor, and the glory and honor of their nations, into that? And would they bring their glory and honor to ground level, or would they have to take the elevator to, say, floor 803,726?

Maybe God gave us those outrageous numbers to clue us in that New Jerusalem is spiritual.

 

[m423156]

It is irrelevant if it is literal or metaphorical, for the New Heavens and New Earth that New Jerusalem descends upon have neither literal, nor metaphorical death, sorrow, or pain. And the former heavens and earth, both literal and metaphorical are passed away, both literally and metaphorically.

Furthermore, we are given no indication as to how large New Earth is. It might be bigger than the present sun for all we know. What we do know is that it is not this earth we are presently dwelling in.

 

[Interplanner]

Not quite, M####.

There has to be a continuity of redemption. When Jesus was resurrected he was seen in his body, yet he could appear at will etc. It was glorified, because there needed to be a continuity between the body that suffered and the one that was raised. He was not a Dali painting figure. The new creation could be very different but in our thinking about it, there has to be something fixed that could not be here. Peter says it is where righteousness dwells. That would be a redeemed form that we can recognize now. Or value and appreciate now.

 

[Rev20]

It is irrelevant if it is literal or metaphorical, for the New Heavens and New Earth that New Jerusalem descends upon have neither literal, nor metaphorical death, sorrow, or pain. And the former heavens and earth, both literal and metaphorical are passed away, both literally and metaphorically.

Furthermore, we are given no indication as to how large New Earth is. It might be bigger than the present sun for all we know. What we do know is that it is not this earth we are presently dwelling in.

No, we do not know that. Your statement is mere speculation based on an allegory or two, when there many passages that imply otherwise, including one of the most famous passages, John 3:16-17.