• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

New Jerusalem will never be on this earth

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by m423156, Jan 28, 2015.

  1. m423156

    m423156 Member

    253
    +1
    Christian
    New Jerusalem does not descend on this heaven and earth. This heaven and earth is ordained to pass away by fire. There is a completely new heaven and earth constituting an entire new universe and cosmic order of heaven.

    Therefore, those who teach that New Jerusalem will be established on this earth are adding to the word and contradicting it. They are found to be false teachers and false prophets.

    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. - Revelation 21
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +477
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I think not. Just as God gives a new heart (inner man) when he saves a person, that person is not completely new. They have a NEW PERSPECTIVE by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    It will be the same with the New heaven and earth. Jesus created it, and Jesus will make it new. It will NOT be destroyed but recreated as only the power of Christ can do. That's why Revelation 21:5 says:
    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

    Look at HOW that is said, and think about it. Jesus says He is making all things new...so they are existent, and will be changed by His power!
     
  3. KrAZeD

    KrAZeD Newbie

    391
    +12
    Non-Denom
    Private
    such a bold and strong assertion their.

    though the idea of Jerusalem descending from heaven down to this planet currently known as earth is ironically seen in those exact verses your quoting from, which is not contradicting scripture. It clearly is in the understanding one chooses to lean towards- either a completely new "created" universe and heavens or a cleansing/changing of the "current" earth and heavens, in essence the same "change" we shall undergo upon our deaths (1 cor 15:52)- though the changing of this current earth/heavens (passing away) will Result from fire as foretold in numerous verses.

    though since you feel it's a brand new earth and heavens as in created out of ex nihilo and not a "refurbished" earth then why in hades sake do the nations need rehealed if it's a 100% new heaven and earth??? What did God forget how to make things good like he did back in Genesis?

    rev22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    really can you prove that using scripture? The scripture you've cited gives no credence to a entirely new cosmic order outside of the one that is currently awaiting us.
     
  4. m423156

    m423156 Member

    253
    +1
    Christian
    He said 'Behold, I am creating all things anew'. He did not say, 'I refashion all things that are newly again.' He is not fashioning again the former things that were. He is creating again ex nihilo as in Genesis.

    It says in Revelation

    και ειπεν ο καθημενος επι του θρονου ιδου καινα παντα ποιω και λεγει μοι γραψον οτι ουτοι οι λογοι αληθινοι και πιστοι εισιν [And He who sat upon the Throne said, You see, I am creating all things anew. And He said to me, Write these words; True and Faithful they are.]​

    It says in Genesis

    εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην [In the Genesis, God created the Heaven and the Earth.]​

    And again in Revelation it says

    οτι τα πρωτα απηλθον [for the former are annihilated]​
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  5. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +477
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I think you best go back and do the word study. The word is poieō[/1] as opposed to the Hebrew bara which means to create. it's a very distinct difference.

    Jesus will will doing just as the passage says...making all things new! The taint of sin from the fall of Adam will be removed, which will change EVERYTHING.

    The word is not "create" and NO TRANSLATION SAYS THAT:

    KJV:
    And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    NKJV:
    5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

    YLT:
    And He who is sitting upon the throne said, 'Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, 'Write, because these words are true and stedfast;'

    Complete Jewish Bible:
    5 Then the One sitting on the throne said, “Look! I am making everything new!” Also he said, “Write, ‘These words are true and trustworthy!’”

    NASB:
    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

    NIV:
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    Wycliffe Bible:
    5 And he said, that sat in the throne, Lo! I make all things new. And he said to me, Write thou, for these words be most faithful and true.

    RSV:
    5 And he who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    ASV:
    5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.

    The point being God never destroyed the earth, but He did wipe mankind off of the face of the earth by the flood. The waters receded and the same earth was re-populated through Noah and His family.

    The conclusion is God will not destroy this earth! To say so is to disregard what Paul says in Romans 8:18-25, which clearly states the earth will be REDEEMED! :thumbsup:

    Furthermore, New Jerusalem is simply another word for the church. That's why she comes down AS A BRIDE. It's NEW because Christ redeems His people through the resurrection of the dead, and the changing of the living to our redeemed bodies
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  6. m423156

    m423156 Member

    253
    +1
    Christian
    God is not speaking Hebrew in Revelation.

    He is speaking Greek.

    God uses the same word that is used in the Septuagint for creating ex nihilo.

    This is the God of not only the Hebrew, but also the Greek.

    In Revelation it is ποιω.

    In Genesis it is εποιησεν.

    They are the same word, only a different tense.

    God creates ex nihilo in Genesis.

    God creates ex nihilo in Revelation.

    You see, therefore, God creates anew all things ex nihilo.

    For the former things are annihilated.

    They are annihilated by fire universally as Peter reveals in his Epistle.

    And so the translations are wrong.
     
  7. KrAZeD

    KrAZeD Newbie

    391
    +12
    Non-Denom
    Private
    you might want to heed your own assertion here.

    well if every translation is wrong then what authority do you have that makes your translation right? Are you a prophet - disciple- or apostle? Are you a teacher with divine insight? Let alone as why bother even using translations, lets just have a free for all to what we want scripture to mean- even if it contradicts itself with other passages.

    I'm all for a careful study of words and structure of a word but I don't think I've ever disagreed with all translations being wrong. I'm close with a few but not all. If your idea is conflicting with other passeges and illustrations wouldn't you pressume you might G going down the wrong road here.
     
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +477
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    If you think so.
     
  9. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

    +117
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Republican
    Sure makes a lot of sense to me.
     
  10. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

    +129
    Anglican
    The new earth without any sea is probably Mars.
     
  11. m423156

    m423156 Member

    253
    +1
    Christian
    It is not Mars. It is new Earth. There is no sun or moon there. For there is no night there. The vert concept of Darkness is not in that Country. It is a completely new order of creation ex nihilo.
     
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

    +96
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Ebed, that your #2 is not how 2 Pet 3 puts it.
     
  13. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

    +1,779
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That is absolutely correct. New Jerusalem will descend from Heaven but hover over the earth. There will however be a redeemed and restored Jerusalem on earth, and all the nations will bring their worship to this Jerusalem. There will also be communication between the two Jerusalems.
     
  14. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +477
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    In what way?
     
  15. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

    +1,472
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Others
    No sea on Mercury, either, so it could be there. :doh:
     
  16. m423156

    m423156 Member

    253
    +1
    Christian
    One thing that is clear is that we don't all live on the same planet.
     
  17. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

    +129
    Anglican
    Mercury is too hot to support life. The height of the New Jerusalem is the right height for a space elevator on Mars.
     
  18. m423156

    m423156 Member

    253
    +1
    Christian
    You notice that New Jerusalem does not descend upon this present earth. John does not even see the vision until he is taken to the new heaven and new earth. And that is where New Jerusalem descends.

    It does not pertain to this present creation, but new creation. For the former heavens and earth had passed away.
     
  19. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

    +96
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Ebed,
    the description and terminology chosen in 2 Pet 3 is pretty geological. Or do you think that the passage is about another dimension simply because 'stoicheia' is there, as does Rev20? The thing is Peter is perfectly capable of supplying such context and references as he did in I P 1 about the futile way of life in Judaism. Or as Paul in Gal 3-4.

    Let's read it as normally as possible unless clear guided otherwise.
     
  20. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

    +260
    Christian
    Single
    I don't know that I would hold to that in that way - Rev 12, for example, reads as if he is merely looking up and reading a vision being played out before his eyes by the constellation... as had been the case when the wise man followed what that constellation had signaled as to Messiah's birth.

    Centuries later British astronomers supposedly having been able to retrace the date of the birth of Christ within the stars.

    Yep, I do read "books about," my issue being the tendency of too many to over rely on them.
     
Loading...