New Israel

[redblue22]

Do you see the Church as the new Israel?

 

[civilwarbuff]

You mean replacing Israel as God's chosen?

 

[Shimshon]

Do you see the Church as the new Israel?

No. The Church and Israel are distinct entities. Of the 73 references to “Israel” in the NT, not one identify the church as Israel. The “Israel of God” reference in Gal 6:15-16 is referring to Jewish believers. The rule was equity in God, not being superseded by the church. In Romans 2, Paul does not teach no one is a Jew any longer. He says no one is a Jew -who is merely one outwardly- This does not imply that Jews are no longer, but that being one is not merely an outward show of obedience to Torah. Notice he then states, “But a Jew is – one inwardly. He’s not saying anyone can be Jewish by the indwelling of the Spirit. Nor is he teaching that no one is a Jew any longer. He’s saying everyone must experience God within the heart. Both Gentiles AND Jews. Other passages like 1 Pet 2:9-10 show similarities between Israel and the church, but similarity does not mean he was teaching Israel was replaced by the church.

 

[redblue22]

Would that mean Christians or the Church is not chosen?

Can one be "saved" if one is a Jew but not a believer in Jesus?

Does being a messianic Jew mean one has more responsibilities than the Church?

 

[Shimshon]

Would that mean Christians or the Church is not chosen?

No, many are called, few are chosen. Do you believe Israel/Jews were 'un-chosen'?

Can one be "saved" if one is a Jew but not a believer in Jesus? Does being a messianic Jew mean one has more responsibilities than the Church?

Salvation is otherwise known as exaltation. Nobody can receive salvation without exalting the holy one of Israel. But how can one exalt Him AND denigrate Israel in the same breath?

The Servant of the LORD
Isaiah 49
1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.

2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver.

3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

4 But I said, “I have labored in vain; I have spent my strength for nothing at all. Yet what is due me is in the LORD’s hand, and my reward is with my God.”

5 And now the LORD says— he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength—

6 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

7 This is what the LORD says— the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel— to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: “Kings will see you and stand up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”


Luke 1
30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.

32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
​

Both are equally offered 'salvation', yet our equality does not negate Israel’s identity nor rule out Israel’s restoration, as Israel. Was Israel un-chosen so the gentiles could be?

 

[redblue22]

I think you are too deep for me. Maybe someone else.

I find myself wondering if Christians should also become Jews for a greater inheritance? That way Christians would be Israel.

 

[evangelicalsabbatarian]

the Christian Church is Israel and we Christians are Jews in the purest meaning.

 

[Stillicidia]

Yes, according to the scripture of the grafting in of the olive tree, Israel would be unto the gentiles.
I think the Jews are grafted out, but I don't really know, because I'm sure they'll be given great mercy.

 

[Shimshon]

I think you are too deep for me. Maybe someone else.

I find myself wondering if Christians should also become Jews for a greater inheritance? That way Christians would be Israel.

And where do you find our God testifying of this? Who's witness are you using to believe such things? Jews have a greater inheritance than Christians? Christians become Israel? Are you familiar with replacement theology? Or do you even know that you are promoting it's fallacy?

 

[Greg J.]

Well, this subject confused me at first (forever ago), but it cleared up and I haven't had reason to question it. I can provide verses for any of this, if anyone wants. (If the matter is complicated to you, it may not help, which means you need to study all the pertinent passages and/or ask God for understanding.)

God chose the Jewish nation as his own. This means the Jews, not the people occupying the land of Israel. After all, he chose them before they ever occupied Israel. (He showed the land to Abraham, but Abraham didn't live there.) The Jews were those who descended from Jacob (who was renamed to Israel). (The land was an inheritance and does not define the people.) The Jews were God's people, because God chose them, not because the Jews chose God. God is always faithful to his promises (which includes punishment for the disobedient, btw).

"Fathership" in both the OT and NT and in other ways in the NT indicates that a Jew by blood can be seen as not a Jew in God's eyes. And those who are not Jews by blood can be seen as Jews in God's eyes.

God judges people individually. People are judged for their own sins, not the sins of others. People are saved by faith in Jesus Christ (or, it can be phrased: faith in God through Jesus Christ). There is no other way that a person's sins can be forgiven. People are condemned already if they have not believed in Jesus.

Jews and non-Jews are equal in worth and exaltation in Christ. The difference between them is not the people themselves. It is about God having chosen to associate himself with the Jews. Because of this, the Jews will be judged and rewarded (or punished) first. There is meaning in being first, but not in the way people are predisposed to think (one is greater in inherent worth than the other).

I view "All Israel will be saved" as a reference to the spirit of Israel, which includes Jews who have received Jesus Christ, but not those who have made themselves into non-Jews in God's eyes. It also includes non-Jews who are "Jews" in spirit in God's eyes.

 

[redblue22]

And where do you find our God testifying of this? Who's witness are you using to believe such things? Jews have a greater inheritance than Christians? Christians become Israel? Are you familiar with replacement theology? Or do you even know that you are promoting it's fallacy?

Wow, more questions I don't know the answer to. Well, thank you for trying.

 

[Open Heart]

First, let's deal with the doctrine of the New Israel. The New Israel doesn't replace Israel any more than New York replaces York. However, as a Jew, I still find the term highly insulting. Israel is God's first born son. When it comes to election,the Jews are loved for the sake of the patriarchs, and all Israel shall be saved, according to Scripture. Think of Israel and the Church as two children of a loving Father. Do you think the Father plays favorites? Does he replace the older child with the younger? Christ is King of the Jews AND Lord of the Church.

Check out my tagline of Cardinal Lustiger.

 

[Open Heart]

And where do you find our God testifying of this? Who's witness are you using to believe such things? Jews have a greater inheritance than Christians? Christians become Israel? Are you familiar with replacement theology? Or do you even know that you are promoting it's fallacy?

He was being sarcastic.

 

[Open Heart]

I view "All Israel will be saved" as a reference to the spirit of Israel, which includes Jews who have received Jesus Christ, but not those who have made themselves into non-Jews in God's eyes. It also includes non-Jews who are "Jews" in spirit in God's eyes.

This can't be right. In this passage of Scripture, Paul is specifically speaking about unsaved Jews. In fact, he even says, "they are enemies of the gospel for your sake."

 

[SolomonVII]

Biblically speaking, Jews are of the tribe of Judah, and are but one of the tribes of Jacob, or Israel.
Through David's and Solomon's sin, Judah became separated from the rest of Israel, and Israel eventually was defeated by the Assyrians and scattered among the nations.

A first glance this would make it seem that the tribe of Judah, or Jews were all that is left of Israel, and the names Israel and Jew becomes synonymous in many people's mind.

However, the old Israeli kingdom, the lost tribes, the nation defeated by Assyria, did not actually disappear, but was seeded throughout the nations, as prophesied by Hosea, Israel's prophet.
Fittingly, for a nation beset by idolatry and polytheism, this old Israel became a nation of many gods, the gods of all the nations even.

Jews alone remained true to Yaweh, but that does not mean that God did not remain true to all of Jacob's children.

Jesus, the Good Shephard came and called their name, and those of the House of Israel recognized his voice and came to him.

This is the New Israel. Is it the seeds of the scattered lost tribes, rescued and saved from among the nations, and gathered, into the Church

Because there is confusion in thinking that Judah is Israel, there is a confusion in the theology that sees the New Israel, the lost sheep saved by the Good Shephard, as displacing Judaism, the old Israel.
But Judah was never the only son of Jacob in the first place.
And Judah never stopped being a son of Jacob, never stopped being a tribe of Israel, even as the scattered seeds of the lost ten tribe were gathered into the Church..
It is a mystery as to why the tribe of Judah did not heed the voice of Jesus that left Paul consternated, and without satisfactory answer. Jesus himself left a clue in that he did not come for the found, but for the lost (to paraphrase badly).

Be that as it may, yes the Church is the New Israel, the Israel saved and reaped from the Assyrian seeding of Israel amongst the nations. Israel itself includes ALL of the tribes, including the Jews, who are of God, but are not, strictly speaking, of the Church. it is a dysfunctional relationship that we have been left with to be sure, and one that does not hold any easy answers.
But even as Jews and Christians alike are often loathe to claim each other as brothers, even as Jacob asks still 'Where is thy brother' as in the times when Joseph was left at the bottom of the well, the fact is that Israel is not one, but twelve. Jews and Christians are joined into the same family whether they like it or not, whether they acknowledge it or not.

And that is the true nature of the New Israel, imho.

 

[Greg J.]

This can't be right. In this passage of Scripture, Paul is specifically speaking about unsaved Jews. In fact, he even says, "they are enemies of the gospel for your sake."

You make a very good point. My explanation of what the spirit of Israel refers to is dumbed down, because I can't give a single cohesive explanation of all of what it means. I think different aspects of this spirit are referred to in different passages.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Romans 11:25-26, 1984 NIV)

In this passage Paul is referring to things happening over a long period of time. In context, "Israel has experienced a hardening in part" indicates a part of Israel will die in their sins. "He will turn godlessness away from Jacob" indicates the Jewish people will have godlessness. As a result, Paul is indicating there are Jews that will be lost, so the other parts of the verse ("all Israel will be saved") must be reconciled with that fact.

This passage is part of a long discourse by Paul that starts in Romans 9:1 and doesn't end until around Romans 11:32, so there's a lot there. Near the beginning, Paul writes something that needs to be reconciled with whatever else one thinks on this topic:

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. (Romans 9:6-8, 1984 NIV)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you see the Church as the new Israel?

I think the term "new" Israel is somewhat problematic as it suggests a disconnect from "old" Israel. The Church isn't "new" Israel, the Church is Israel, Israel is the Church. The definition of Israel has changed on account of the coming of the Messiah and the covenant which is found in Him for all people and nations. But Christians are part of the same People of God as were those of old--all the ancient prophets and kings and people. Moses is a member of Christ's Church, Abraham is a member of Christ's Church, David is a member of Christ's Church.

Israel, of old, finds its fullness in Jesus Christ, and therefore in the revelation of the Church in and of Christ.

But there are not two Israels, nor are there two Churches. But one Israel and one Church, and they are one and the same People in Jesus the Messiah.

There are two chief errors here:

The first is what's known as "Replacement Theology", this idea that the Church replaced Israel as God's People.

The second is what's known as Dispensationalism, a rather comprehensive biblical hermeneutic that attempts to interpret the entirety of the Bible by dividing it into distinct dispensations which regards the Church to be part of a parenthetical dispensation and completely separated from and unrelated to Israel which is the chief focus of all of God's real work. The Church exists because the Jews did not wholesale accept Jesus when He came, so God went with Plan B, Jesus was crucified, raised up from the dead, and the Church was founded as a primarily Gentile organism until the time the Church is removed from the world at "the rapture" and God again goes back to working with Israel.

The first error is primarily an error of minor misunderstanding, the second error is a monumental work in getting everything about the Bible, redemptive history, and the Gospel fundamentally and completely wrong.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

the Christian Church is Israel

With that I agree.

and we Christians are Jews in the purest meaning.

And with that I disagree.

Christians are not Jews, but there are Jews which are Christians.

Christians are made up all who confess the Lord Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile. Both believing Jews and non-believing Jews are Jews*, neither believing nor unbelieving Gentiles are Jews.

(*of course, from the perspective of observant Jews, i.e. those whose religion is Judaism, a Jew who converts to Christianity is no longer considered a Jew, so regard my statement above to not be referring to the mainstream Jewish perspective, but a Christian one)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You make a very good point. My explanation of what the spirit of Israel refers to is dumbed down, because I can't give a single cohesive explanation of all of what it means. I think different aspects of this spirit are referred to in different passages.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Romans 11:25-26, 1984 NIV)

In this passage Paul is referring to things happening over a long period of time. In context, "Israel has experienced a hardening in part" indicates a part of Israel will die in their sins. "He will turn godlessness away from Jacob" indicates the Jewish people will have godlessness. As a result, Paul is indicating there are Jews that will be lost, so the other parts of the verse ("all Israel will be saved") must be reconciled with that fact.

This passage is part of a long discourse by Paul that starts in Romans 9:1 and doesn't end until around Romans 11:32, so there's a lot there. Near the beginning, Paul writes something that needs to be reconciled with whatever else one thinks on this topic:

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. (Romans 9:6-8, 1984 NIV)

I think you make some solid points, but I don't think "all Israel will be saved" can be meant to exclude the non-believing Jews. I think there is room here for the possibility that, for Paul, there absolutely would come a time when all of [even] unbelieving Israel would find salvation. What this ultimately might look like isn't given to us. I think it better to have no answer, or only a very vague idea, rather than have wrong answers. And I think that, as I mentioned in an earlier post, both Replacement Theology and Dispensationalism offer wrong answers; I'm also not sure I'm comfortable with the modern Two Covenant Theology espoused by a number of modern theologians because it seems to suggest a salvation outside of Christ (or perhaps I am just not completely familiar with it enough).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Greg J.]

The use of "purest Jew" implies one has blended being a spiritual Jew with being a Jew by blood or by culture. Spiritually we are all the same in Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:28-29, 1984 NIV)

(Edited)