New Israel

[xristos.anesti]

Many years,

I was always under impression that the Church is The New Israel - but on these forums (and I assume in the USA) there are some (many) who hold that the State of Israel is the New Israel.

I wonder if I missed some major part of Orthodoxy or they are just confused and wrong.

I have never heard of such a theory before.

Can someone explain it to me?

Thanks.

 

[RobNJ]

I believe the Orthodox opinion is that the Church is the "New Israel" & that the State of Israel is just that- a political entity.

 

[Anatole]

I believe the Orthodox opinion is that the Church is the "New Israel" & that the State of Israel is just that- a political entity.

I second what he said!

 

[Canadian75]

I believe the Orthodox opinion is that the Church is the "New Israel" & that the State of Israel is just that- a political entity.

Exactly what I was taught as well.



Peace.

 

[Eusebios]

That is my understanding as well. Many non-Orthodox are quite upset by this "replacement theology", but understand that they are , well, not ORTHODOX
Peace,
Don

 

[Knowledge3]

St. Peter mentions the 12 tribes of Israel as "scattered abroad" which means having been dispersed among the nations.

 

[Mytheodos]

"He Hath Filled the Hungry with good things and the Rich He hath sent away"(Lk.1:53)

St.Cyril comments that those who hungered were the Gentiles who were pining away in spiritual famine.The Jews were made wealthy by having received the law and the teaching of the prophets.Saint Paul said this about the Jews::to them pertaineth the adoption,and the glory,and the covenants,and the giving of the law,and the service of God,and the promises(Rom.9:4).
Those who were enriched waxed wanton with high feeding.They were swollen with pride at the dignity bestowed upon them.Thus vaunting the fact that they were"sons of Abraham" they disdained to draw humbly to the incarnate Word.; hence they were sent away empty,carrying nothing- neither fath,knowledge,nor the hope of blessings.

Those Jews who rejected Him became outcasts from the Earthly Jerusalem and refused citizenship in the glorious life to come.They denied the Prince of Life and even crucified the Lord of Glory and, abandoning the Fountain of living water, they set at nought the Bread that came down from heaven.
on account of this a famine more severe than any other befell them and a thirst unquenchable and more bitter than any other.
Do not think that this is a famine from food and water,but a famine of hearing the word of the Lord and communicating him.However,the heathen, whose souls were wasting away with deprivation and misery, upon receiving the Lord,were filled with spiritual blessings.The privileges of the children of Israel were then passed over to the New Israel,As He also says,:I will love her that was not loved,and will say to them that were not My people,Thou art My people; and they shall say,"Thou art the Lord My God"(Hos.2.23)and whereit was said"Ye are not My people;even they shall be called the Sons of the living God(Hos.1:10)

"He hath helped his servant Israel,in the rememberance ofHis mercy, as he spake to our fathers,to Abraham,and to his seed for ever"(Lk.1.54-55)
Saint Cyril remarks that to the many who were Israelites,according to the flesh,and believed,God accomplished what He had spoken to Abraham.that"in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed"
Gen.22:18).The fulfilled promise was Christ,Who was of the seed of Abraham,in whom the nations are blessed.
When the Virgin Mary said,"He hath helped His servant Israel," she did not mean those who were Israelites priding themselves on the bare name,but those true Israelites of the spirit who would look unto God and believe in him.
The Nations are those children that,through the Son,obtained the adoption of sons and the promises made to the prophets and patriarchs of old.

As the Orthodox creed says" I believe in one holy,Catholic and Apostolic Church"
The New israel.

 

[Adammi]

I believe the Orthodox opinion is that the Church is the "New Israel" & that the State of Israel is just that- a political entity.

I agree with this also, but most Evangelicals would disagree.
Websites such as this are very popular among Evangelicals and I find them to be horrifyingly off base.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

And isreal LOVES that the religious right believes this way and the State of Isreal has a very good relationship with them. This plays a big role in why the US supports Isreal and basically gives them a blank check.

1) Most Jewish people in the US are traditionally democrat so it would be political suicide for a democrat to question this close relationship.
2) The Religious Right that believes that Isreal is literally the chosen people and that the Temple must be rebuilt before the end comes votes Republican so it would be political suicide for the Republican party to question this issue
3) They are now the only friends we could possibly have int eh MIddle East because we have estranged everyone else over there in part because of our support in almost all things
4) It's not PC to question Isreal on anything because you are so easily pegged a anti-semitic in the US.

I know I am not an ati-semitic in any way, but I am very careful when and where i express this opinion because it is the contemporary US equivelant to the Scarlet Letter when you are tagged an anti-semitic here.

XA... is it that way at all in Aussie land? (are you still over there?)

John

 

[xristos.anesti]

Thanks for your answers -

Xpycoctomos, this is a non issue in Australian Politics, Public and day-to-day living.

Actually, many issues that are so "loaded" in the US are non issue Down Under - thus for me coming from the Balkans and now living here this represents completely a new way of thinking and methodology of politcs in day-to-day life as presented on these forums - (being a representative of mainly US cross-section of Christendom and from what I can see on US based TV news providers) - is mind boggling.

I see no connection between 90% of oppinions expressed by the Americans (Orthodox excluded) to anything that I know or can ascertain in any way as being relevant and reasonable – so much so that is seems to me that political and religious issues, but also art and television that is coming from the USA feels like it fell from the Neptune or who knows where.

Enough said.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Of course we should LOVE the Jewish people. We're supposed to love everyone, and salvation did come out of Israel (Christ). However, we should be careful about supporting the modern state of Israel in everything it does.

 

[MariaRegina]

I believe the Orthodox opinion is that the Church is the "New Israel" & that the State of Israel is just that- a political entity.

Yes, indeed.

And that is why many Orthodox Jews are against the State of Israel, and are hence called anti-semitic. Strange how that word anti-semitic can be applied against the Jews themselves. Ah. The political correctness game is ever present among us.

But God will set us free.

Come Lord Jesus.
Come quickly to save us.

 

[MariaRegina]

I agree with this also, but most Evangelicals would disagree.
Websites such as this are very popular among Evangelicals and I find them to be horrifyingly off base.

Welcome to TAW, Adammi.

I have missed you.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Of course we should LOVE the Jewish people. We're supposed to love everyone, and salvation did come out of Israel (Christ). However, we should be careful about supporting the modern state of Israel in everything it does.

Exactly. We should love Iranians just the same.

 

[Adammi]

Exactly. We should love Iranians just the same.

Exactly. When someone asks me if I believe that Israel is God's chosen nation, I say, "Yes, and so is Brazil, Denmark, New Zealand, Italy, Canada, Belize, Zimbabwe, Laos, and Andorra".

Welcome to TAW, Adammi.

I have missed you.

Thanks so much for the welcome. I'm not in these parts very much, but I always enjoy my quick convos with you.

 

[xristos.anesti]

Exactly. When someone asks me if I believe that Israel is God's chosen nation, I say, "Yes, and so is Brazil, Denmark, New Zealand, Italy, Canada, Belize, Zimbabwe, Laos, and Andorra".

Thanks so much for the welcome. I'm not in these parts very much, but I always enjoy my quick convos with you.

Hey, wait a minute - what about Australia - you can't say that New Zealand is God's chosen nation and not say that Australia is also God's chosen nation - I mean - we beat New Zealand in cricket damn it - what is wrong with you - you wanna start the war down here?

What is wrong with you?
















Just kidding brother, many years and welcome!

 

[InnerPhyre]

It is perhaps better to try not to draw the distinction between New Israel and Old Israel to gain a better understanding. St. Paul says in his letter to the Romans that we have been grafted onto the vine of Israel while the bad branches were cut off and burned. So this is not to say that through the Church that God necessarily planted a whole new tree. Rather, we as gentiles in the Church ARE Israel by virtue of the fact that we have been grafted to Israel. Paul also makes it clear that the Jews are still God's people and that the reason that God chose to fill His Church with gentiles was to make the Jewish people jealous and return to Him, which they will in the end before the final judgement.

As for whether or not the state of Israel has anything to do with all of this....I think we need to be careful there. Even if we were to say that yes it does, we must not look at it as a state that can do no wrong. Israel throughout history needed to be corrected by God, sometimes very violently.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Paul also makes it clear that the Jews are still God's people and that the reason that God chose to fill His Church with gentiles was to make the Jewish people jealous and return to Him, which they will in the end before the final judgement.

I'mn not sure the bolded part is Orthodox. What makes them isreali? What if they are half Isreali? What if they are 1/32 Isreali? i don't know, sound 700 Club to me, but I could totatlly be wrong. Cna you explain fruther?

John

 

[ClementofRome]

I am confronted with this issue often.....I live in the south (USA) and I come from largely Evangelical roots...

Let me say that the "Left Behind" series of books has not helped the matter. Premillennial Dispensationalism is about 120 years old.....a tad young wouldn't you say?

Here is logic:

"...and Abram believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness"

The OT predicted the coming of the Messiah. Those that were true believers in the OT were the chosen ones (remnant). Yes, Abram's (Abraham) offspring were to be the voice of God to the nations. Those of Abrahams's offspring that were true believers were "True Israel."

When Jesus Christ arrived, those that believed in the coming of the Messiah were of the same cloth as those who had looked for him (True Israel).

Thusly, those who believe that Jesus is the Messiah are the True Israel.

What is happening in the middle east is politics.

Forgive me.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e] Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Doxology

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.