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New Heaven and New Earth

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hervey, Jan 15, 2002.

  1. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Luke 16:23 - 29 is a parable --- Not a literal !!!! In "fact" - the parable starts at verse 19 and ends at verse 31. This parable is to convey a message to the hearer. In this parable, it does not tell us that the soul is somewhere else while the body is dead in the grave ! A poor man dies. A rich man dies. The rich man is in hell (grave) in "torment" <-- The "only" place in the Word dealing with "torment", with an understanding, is the Lake of fire, called the second death. This hell (grave) is where he ended up after he found out his name was not in the book of life. He "sees" in this hell (grave) , where as if it was a literal grave (hell) he would not see, nor would he understand, nor would he realize, because there is no realization in the grave of this earth, that we are put into after we die. In Psalms 6:5 it plainly tells us , that there is no "remembrance" in death !! The only grave(hell) that has torment, and remembrance, is the grave - hell ---> is the Lake of fire - the second death.


    Jim:

    It doesn’t matter whether it’s a parable or a true account. Either way, it expresses Christ’s view of the underworld. If there were no consciousness after death, Christ would be lying in suggesting, even in a parable, that there were. According to the Bible, the second death does not occur at least until the coming of the Lord, at the judgment. If the judgment had already occurred, the rich man would not have five brothers still living their lives on earth with nothing but scripture to let them know that there was such a place as hell, as they themselves would already be judged as well. Thus, the circumstance of this parable is pre-judgment, which means that the hell in which the rich man finds himself predates the second death.

    As for Psalm 6:5, maybe you’re misinterpreting it, or maybe David incorrectly believed that there was no consciousness after death. Perhaps not everything written in the Psalms qualifies as a basis for doctrine. Perhaps some of what’s written in the Psalms merely expresses the writer’s subjective thoughts and feelings.

    In contrast, Christ, Who was in a better position to know what the afterlife would be like than David was, wasn’t venting His lamentations as David was; He was using the story of Lazarus and the rich man to teach.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  2. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Can you believe it, we are on page 11 !

    You said >

    Paul appears to be applying this same thought to the Gospel in Romans 10:6-9. He appears to be saying that Israel does not have to go looking for their Messiah, as He has already come; what they have to do is act on what He has done for them and believe.

    In reading your first post , I noticed that you think the book of Romans is written to Israel ? Well you are dead wrong sir !

    The book of Romans is written to the Church , and Romans were Gentiles who knew nothing of the OT writting, nor did they know anything about the Law, unless Paul quoted and explained it to them in detail !!

    Romans chapter one - verse one - "Paul a servant of Jesus Christ , called to be an apostle , separated unto the gospel of God"

    Verse two - parenthises - throw it out ! ! You can not find anywhere in the OT such promises that were made , as it says in verses 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 ! ! ! What Paul is talking about here, is the Mystery, that was revealed unto him and was kept secret since the world began - Romans 16:25 & 26

    Verse 7 - "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints :"

    Who is this verse written too ? The Church, right ? All those in Rome and those called to be saints - correct ? Was this written to Israel ? A strong --- No !! This was one of the seven Church epistles written unto the Church !

    But you seem to be implying that Romans 10:5 - 7 is written unto Israel, at least that is how you explained it ! !

    Paul is explaining to the Romans and others who might have been with him, that "Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them"

    Paul is telling those in Rome about the law , and that those who do the law , shall live by the law. We know that the Church was not to live by the law !! Read the book of Galatians sir ! !

    Paul goes on to say in the next verse - "But the righteousness which is of "faith" speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart. Who shall ascend into heaven ? Or, who shall descend into the deep ? " - Throw the parenthises out ! !

    It is "clear" , that Paul is talking about walking by "faith" to the Church ! ! He is also telling them, not to be concerned who shall ascend into heaven or who shall descend into the deep ! He is telling them to be concerned about themselves as individuals !

    Then, then, then comes verse 9 - "That if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Chrsit , and shalt believe (= faith), in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved "

    Then comes verse 10 speaking of "faith " - "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

    These were more than likely 99 % of them were Gentiles, in Rome , that he was speaking too. Because his ministry was unto the Gentiles, and not the Jews, which was Peter's ministry was unto - Book of Galatians sir ! !

    You keep telling "me" that I am using my believing in such a manner , and that that is the reason for my conclusions. This is where Jesus Christ would have called you a hypocrite sir ! ! Paul was not talking too Israelites in the book of Romans or the other seven Church epistles ! ! He was talking to those who were called and chosen from before the foundations of the Word, and it became a part of God's Word, written unto the Church ! !

    This statement of yours is almost unbelievable >

    As for Psalm 6:5, maybe you’re misinterpreting it, or maybe David incorrectly believed that there was no consciousness after death. Perhaps not everything written in the Psalms qualifies as a basis for doctrine. Perhaps some of what’s written in the Psalms merely expresses the writer’s subjective thoughts and feelings.

    How can I be misinterpreting this verse ? All I did was read what was written ! ! And how can you make such a statement about the Word of God ? ? The Word of God --- >

    II Peter 1:20 & 21

    20 ) - "Knowing this "first" , that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation"

    21 ) - "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man : but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit"

    You even "dare" to make such a statement, as you have made ? ?

    And as far as the parable is concerned, I see that even after an explanation, your eyes do not understand the parable ,and what it is saying ! !

    The parable does "not" express Christ's view of the "underworld" !

    There is no mention of an underworld in this parable !

    In the parable , there is no intent to save this rich man's brothers, or any attempt to tell them about hell ! Christ would not lie, but man does - every man is a liar, so the Word says !

    This parable is a recognizing of the rich man's fate, and nothing said, or done would change his ending up in the Lake of fire, which is where he is, or anyone elses for that matter, because of the ending statement of this parable - verse 31 - "And he said unto him, If they hear (hear = listened) "not " Moses and the prophets ( OT ), neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead"

    Neither would persuade them , was the answer !

    The parable does not imply that once one ends up in the Lake of fire , can one come back from the dead to persuade others that the Lake of fire is a reality. It is by "faith", either of the OT prophets and the writtings and words of Moses -- God's faithful servant, that they would either believe or not believe, and a person risen from the dead wouldn't have changed their minds anyways ! !

    Get it now ? ? ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  3. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    In reading your first post , I noticed that you think the book of Romans is written to Israel ? Well you are dead wrong sir !


    Jim:

    His subject in chapter 10 is Israel’s failure to respond to the Gospel (he refers to them in the third person: “they” and “them”) and his desire that they would believe. What he’s saying regarding the Gospel itself applies to everyone: “… there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek [10:12] …” The Savior has come; what everyone needs to do is believe.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  4. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Jim, your side stepping here ! Trying to avoid the obvious ! ?

    Why can't you take the correction given unto you ?

    Maybe we should start talking about "meekness" and "humility" here ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  5. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Why can't you take the correction given unto you?


    Jim:

    Because you’re asking me to accept a correction which is itself incorrect.

    The people to whom Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans are identified throughout the epistle in the second person (“ye, you” and “your”).

    Chapter 10, however, begins and ends with the subject of discussion identified as “Israel” (10:1 and 10:21). Thoughout that chapter, the subject of discussion is addressed in the third person (“they” and “them”). In verses 10:6-9, the second person (“thine, thee, thy” and “thou”) is used because Deuteronomy 30:11-14, which Paul is partially quoting, is written that way.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  6. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Apparently then, you want to take a stand, that the seven Church epistles are written to Israel, because the post in question, is the one in which I corrected you about !

    The way in which you explained yourself, is that Israel was being told this and that, when in fact you are wrong !

    The seven Church epistles are written to the Church, and the Romans were the one's Paul was talking too ! They were "Gentiles", unless you have forgotten !

    He was talking to those whom God has called and chosen, the "saints". He was not speaking to the nation of Israel !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  7. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    The seven Church epistles are written to the Church, and the Romans were the one's Paul was talking too ! They were "Gentiles", unless you have forgotten !


    Jim:

    Yes, Paul’s epistle to the Romans was written to the church at Rome:
    Most of these saints to whom he wrote were Gentiles:
    Some of these saints to whom he wrote were believing Jews:
    At times in this epistle to the church at Rome, Paul at least indirectly (perhaps only rhetorically, or perhaps more directly than that) speaks TO unbelieving Jews:
    At times in this epistle to the church at Rome, Paul speaks OF unbelieving Jews:
    Thus, although the epistle to the Romans is written TO the church at Rome, in the tenth chapter, Paul is speaking OF Israel. In verse 10:5, Paul appears to quote Leviticus 18:5 (this Old Testament passage applies specifically to Israel). In verses 10:6-8, Paul appears to take a partial quote from Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (the central thought of this Old Testament passage applies specifically to Israel regarding the law) and to apply it to the Gospel message. In verses 10:9-15, Paul describes the Gospel message itself, verse 10:9 still using the idiom of verses 10:6-8 (“thou, thy” and “thine”) because it completes the thought expressed in those verses. Just as the central thought of Deuteronomy 30:11-14 is that Israel must not look for the law, as the law has already been given, the central thought of Romans 10:6-9 appears to me to be that Israel must not, in unbelief, continue to look for their Messiah to come, as He has already come; what they must do is believe. In my opinion, this is what Paul is saying OF Israel in verses 10:6-9 of his epistle TO the church at Rome.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  8. charlesj

    charlesj Member

    78
    +0
    Hello all:

    I am new on the forum and hope I don't repeat what's been said. I've tried to read the thread and hope I end up on the same page as you all.
    I assume this thread deals with Rev 21,9,10. Before I jump into
    the thread I would like to ask a question. Have you discussed
    the "dating of the Book?" (The Book of Revelation) The date
    it was written is very important in it's understanding. Was there
    an early date (prior to 70 A.D.) or is it as most assume around
    96-98 A.D.? The proper dating will also apply to this thread and dealing with Rev 21:9,10.
    Maybe I should start a new thread with this question. Let me know.

    Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
    charlesj
     
  9. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear charlesj,


    Welcome!


    charlesj:

    Maybe I should start a new thread with this question. Let me know.


    Jim:

    You probably should start a new thread. This one has evolved into a discussion regarding Romans.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  10. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    So , do I assume that you now have changed your mind, which originally stated , that Paul was speaking to the Israel/ Jews, in Romans 10 ?

    Does not Paul speak to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see ? Does he not speak to those who would gather themselves and call themselves saints ? Was not the words in Romans 10 directed towards those Roman gentiles who were listening to Paul speak , to that which is written in Romans 10 ?

    Does it not say in Romans 11:13 that Paul is speaking to "you Gentiles" ?

    Did you not say in the post in question, that these verses were speaking to Israel ?

    Does not Romans 10:1 start out with the word "Brethren", as to whom this is being addressed ?

    Paul mentions unbelieving Jews, but his message is unto the Church ! !

    What I want from you Jim, is to whom was Paul speaking in Romans chapter 10 ? ?

    This is the chapter we "were" dealing with, "when" you went off on one of your tangents about Israel.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  11. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    So , do I assume that you now have changed your mind, which originally stated , that Paul was speaking to the Israel/ Jews, in Romans 10 ?


    Jim:

    I don’t recall saying that Paul spoke to Israel. He spoke of Israel.


    Hervey:

    Does not Romans 10:1 start out with the word "Brethren", as to whom this is being addressed ?


    Jim:

    He’s speaking to the Church regarding Israel. The audience is the Church. The subject is Israel.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    In the post in question, you did not imply that Paul was speaking to the Church about Israel !

    Here is a part of "that" post >

    Israel was looking for their Messiah to come. In Luke 7:16-23, John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask of Christ, “Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?” In response, Christ sent them back to John to tell him of the miracles and preaching that they witnessed as proof of His identity. In Acts 2:25-36, Peter quotes Psalms 16:9-11 and 110:1, stating that these prophecies regarding the Messiah for Whom Israel was looking, which speak of His soul not being left in hell and of His ascension into heaven, were already fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

    However, most of Israel did not believe. In Romans 9:31-33, Paul says, “they stumbled at the stumblingstone.” They stumbled in two ways: (1) They sought righteousness through the law, which doesn’t work, instead of through faith. (2) Their Messiah had come, and they didn’t believe; in unbelief, they continued to look for their Messiah to come.

    In verses 10:1-5, Paul expresses his desire to see Israel saved, and he describes their misplaced zeal. Then in verses 10:6-9, Paul appears to apply the central message of Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and the prophecies of Psalms 16:9-11 and 110:1 to Israel’s need to stop looking, saying, “Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)” and to their need to start believing, saying, “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

    Israel’s Messiah had already come, had already descended into the deep (Psalm 16:10) and had already ascended into heaven (Psalm 110:1). All that was left to be done was to believe. To continue to look for their Messiah in unbelief was to in a sense bring Christ down from above and bring Him up again from the dead, as if He hadn’t descended into the deep and hadn’t ascended into heaven. The word of faith says not to do that, as there is not going to be another Messiah. The word of faith says to confess the Lord Jesus and believe that God raised Him from the dead.


    If you wanted this to say that Paul was speaking to the Church about Israel, you sure didn't express it that way ! This is the post in which you tried to explain about the parenthises, and how you think they are the words of God.

    Now that you apparently have changed your mind. I want to bring you back to Romans 10:5 & - 6 & 7 that has the parenthises.

    Paul speaking to the Church, and in Rome, mostly (99%) were Gentiles.

    1 st the parenthises do not make any sense with what the verse says !

    Verse 6 says - "Who shall ascend into heaven" and the parenthises says - (that is to bring Christ down from above). The words in the parenthises say the opposite of what the verse says !

    Then

    Verse 7 says - "Who shall descend into the deep?" and the parenthises says - (that is to bring Christ down from above). Again, the parenthises says the opposite of what the verse is saying !

    Knowing that these verses are addressed unto the Church, and especially to the Gentiles who were never - ever under the Law ! We can conclude that Paul was telling them, not to do the Law, but to walk by "faith".

    2 nd.

    Paul was telling them, that even though those who do not believe of Israel . Even though they have a zeal for God, but do not have the knowledge. It was not to be their concern (you Gentiles who are a part of the Church) , from your hearts, to ask who was going to ascend up, or who was going into the deep (abussos) - (Which is the bottomless pit - the Lake of fire).

    What your saying Jim, is that Jesus Christ went into the bottomless pit ! There is not one record in the Word that follows your train of thoughts.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  13. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    In my last post I brought forward something you had said, in the post that has been in question.

    Here is a small piece from that post that I wanted to address.

    You said > "Israel’s Messiah had already come, had already descended into the deep (Psalm 16:10)

    You said "deep" in reference to Romans 10:7, but were using Psalm 16:10 to give your desired example.

    Well, he did not descend into the deep ! The word "deep", is the greek word (abussos), which is translated -- "The bottomless pit".

    The word in Psalm 16:19 is this word "hell", which I told you was a slang word , that the translators used from their day. And is the Hebrew word "sheol", which should be translated "grave".

    I have also told you, that this word "hell" in the OT Hebrew - "sheol", is the same as the Greek word "hades" in the NT. Both words were translated , both, "hell" and the "grave" from both the Hebrew and the Greek. This Hebrew word "sheol" and this Greek word "hades" have the exact same meaning !

    In trying to make your point, you have mixed and matched words , by saying "deep" when expressing your thoughts, when the Word of God says "sheol" -- the "grave" in Psalm 16:10. Whereas, the word "deep" in Romans 10:7 is the Greek word (abussos), which is translated - "deep" and especially - "the bottomless pit". You can not mix and match words like this to get a desired result. This is a very poor way in which to check these words out , compairing the NT , to the OT, in comparable wordings. You will always get a desire result , instead of the true message that comes from the Word of God.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  14. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Now that you apparently have changed your mind.


    Jim:

    I haven’t changed my mind. My opinion that Paul is talking about Israel in chapter 10 is unchanged.


    Hervey:

    The words in the parenthises say the opposite of what the verse says !


    Jim:

    No, they say the same thing: (1) To ask, Who shall ascend into heaven? is to disbelieve that the ascension into heaven has already taken place, which is to bring Christ down from heaven, that is, to in a sense undo His ascension into heaven in one’s own mind through unbelief. (2) To ask, Who shall descend into the deep? is to disbelieve that the descent into the deep has already taken place, which is to bring Christ up from the dead, that is, to in a sense undo His descent into the deep in one’s own mind through unbelief.

    They’re not opposites. To ask, Who will do these things? is to conclude that they have not already been done. Both the question and the conclusion express unbelief.

    Compare Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and Romans 10:6-8:

    It seems pretty clear to me that Paul is quoting Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10:6-8. The difference is that whereas Moses applies these words to the law, Paul applies them to the Gospel. Paul explains how he applies these words to the Gospel in the parenthetical statements.


    Hervey:

    What your saying Jim, is that Jesus Christ went into the bottomless pit !


    Jim:

    Yes. I’m saying that the bottomless pit is the hell in which God did not leave Christ’s soul according to Acts 2:25-36. I’m saying that the bottomless pit is the heart of the earth and the lower parts of the earth where Christ said that He would go in Matthew 12:40 and into which Paul said that Christ descended in Ephesians 4:9.

    This does not agree with your view, but it does agree with the literal text of the Bible. There is no conflict in the literal text of the Bible. The conflict is introduced by your view. In fact, your view creates so much conflict that it requires you to conclude that portions of the Biblical text should be erased.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  15. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    I do not doubt the comparitve scriptures from Deut. and what it says in Romans ! For the NT is a mirror image of the OT.

    What I have a problem with, is your private interpretation, using those words inside of the parenthises, which were added by man !

    They do not fit with Deut. nor do they fit with what it says in the book of Romans !

    You have made up your own dichotomy, and changed what it is actually saying in Deut. and Romans 10.

    Look again at what your saying, verses what it actually says in Romans 10:6 & 7. ( Even though I don't think you are going to change your mind ). >

    No, they say the same thing: (1) To ask, Who shall ascend into heaven? is to disbelieve that the ascension into heaven has already taken place, which is to bring Christ down from heaven, that is, to in a sense undo His ascension into heaven in one’s own mind through unbelief. (2) To ask, Who shall descend into the deep? is to disbelieve that the descent into the deep has already taken place, which is to bring Christ up from the dead, that is, to in a sense undo His descent into the deep in one’s own mind through unbelief.

    Jim: Paul was speaking to "believers" , not unbelievers ! Your explanation implies disbelief among the Gentiles, and there is no reference of the Gentiles not belileving ! You yourself explained in detail about the unbelieving Jews. But this record in Romans 10 is not talking to unbelieving Jews, it is talking to those Gentiles who are believers ! Paul was not trying to correct unbelief among the Gentiles , in these two verses ! Verse 3 of Romans 10 is talking about the unbelieving Jews. In verse 4 Paul is establishing the end of the law. The "Law" is the subject matter here, and is carried forward throughout this conversation in these verses , using Israel as a comparison . Gentiles knew nothing about the Law, nor did they follow the law in any way form or manner ! The Gentiles were not doing as the Jews were ! Paul was establishing a foundation upon which to explain how God was the God of Israel, but Israel did not follow God and his plan for salvation through Christ.

    Paul establishes with the Gentiles in verse 12 , that there is no difference between a Jew and a Greek.

    In Verse 13 Paul states , that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    The Gentiles were getting a lesson on how and why God calls Gentiles as well as Jews , unto salvation through Christ.

    Paul continues this in verse 14 and 15 and 16, where he says - "But they have not all obeyed the gospel"

    Then in verse 17 Paul says - "So then "faith" cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"

    Then in verse 19 Paul continues talking about Israel and their unbelief.

    Then Paul continues in verse 20, explaining to the Gentiles, that those who are called were prophesied about by Esaias. "That God was manifest unto them that asked not after me"

    And again in verse 21 Paul is telling the Gentiles about Israel's failure.

    What you fail to see and understand Jim, is that the "hearers" were Gentiles, who were believing - believers.

    That is why, your explanation "does not fit " into the context , and to "whom " Paul is talking too ! !

    With the parenthises left, as you have done, you then have to come up with an explanation. That is where your private interpretation comes in ! These words in the parenthises were added by man, and do nothing more than add confusion to the full context of "whom" Paul was talking too, and what he was talking "about" !

    You can continue to hold on to those things that were added by man. And you can continue to try and explain those words added by man. And you can continue to expound upon your private interpretation. But you then will not have the Word of God as it was being addressed unto these Gentiles at this time that is written about in Romans chapter 10 !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  16. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    What I have a problem with, is your private interpretation, using those words inside of the parenthises, which were added by man !


    Jim:

    What you’ve just said here is what I mean by the conflict introduced by your view. Instead of trying to understand what Paul says in the parenthetical statements, you choose believe that he didn’t say it.


    Hervey:

    Your explanation implies disbelief among the Gentiles, and there is no reference of the Gentiles not belileving!


    Jim:

    No. My explanation accepts the explicitly stated subject of discussion in chapter ten, which is the unbelief of Israel.

    You’re using the same method of interpretation to twist what I have said that you have used to twist what scripture says. I have consistently maintained that the subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of Israel. I have plainly and explicitly stated this over and over. Yet your method of interpretation, when applied to my statement, leads to the conclusion that I am implying that the subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of the Gentiles, which is of course the exact opposite of what I have said.

    This is your method of interpretation:

    1. You read a statement that is very explicit and clear in what it says.
    2. You then redefine a word or phrase in that statement according to your own preference.
    3. You then apply the logic of the original statement to the redefined word or phrase to reach a conclusion that is completely different than, even the exact opposite of, what has been explicitly and clearly expressed in the original statement.

    Here is how you’ve applied this method of interpretation to what I’ve said.

    1. I have consistently maintained that the subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of Israel. I have plainly and explicitly stated this over and over.
    2. Nevertheless, you have redefined Israel as the Gentiles in my statement.
    3. You have consequently concluded that I have implied that the subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of the Gentiles, which is the exact opposite of what I have actually said.

    This is what I have actually said: The subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of Israel.

    After applying your method of interpretation to my statement, this is what you have consequently concluded that I have implied: The subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of the Gentiles.

    Notice that after you’ve applied your method of interpretation, your conclusion bears no resemblance to what is actually expressed in the original statement.

    You do the same thing to scripture that you have done to my statement. You redefine a word or phrase according to your own preference, which consequently leads you to draw a conclusion that bears no resemblance to what is clearly expressed in the actual text.

    If you applied this same method of interpretation to a roadmap, you would never be able reach your intended destination.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Your post is so full of untruths, I am not going to touch it ! Except this one statement that you made >

    This is what I have actually said: The subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of Israel.

    There is one of your problems Jim, the subject matter in Romans 10 is "not" the unbelief of Israel ! The subject matter in Romans 10 "is" -- That there is no difference between Jew or Greek , and whosoever believes , shall be saved.

    Here are my comments , to explain to you , as to why your post is so full of untruths >

    "I do not use my beliefs, nor my way of interpretation, and then apply them to your beliefs , just to twist what your are saying ! !

    You are missunderstanding what I am expressing in my thoughts, and thus think it is some kind of conspiracy towards your thoughts.

    All I have done, is to explain, that your thoughts, and beliefs, "express" a negative connotation towards the Gentiles in your private interpretation of Romans 10:6 & 7, by using the parentheticals. These two verses were "said" unto the Gentiles, not "about " the unbelieving Jews. Yet, you still maintain that these words in the parenthises , are addressed unto, or "about", the unbelieving Jews, or are an explanation about the unbelieving Jews, when in fact they are not ! Verse 6 & 7 were words that were addressed unto the believing Gentiles.

    Your explanation of these two verses , express a negative connotation in unbelief, when in fact Paul is not expressing any negative unbelief in Romans 10:6 & 7, whatsoever ! All he is telling the Gentiles, is to not be concerned about who is going to ascend up into heaven or who is going to descend down into the deep. That is all Paul was telling the Gentiles, is to not be concerned about either .

    You have to live with your interpretation, and I have to live with mine.

    I prefer mine ! Because then, the understanding does not contradict any other references from within the Word of God !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  18. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    There is one of your problems Jim, the subject matter in Romans 10 is "not" the unbelief of Israel !


    Jim:

    This is how Romans 10 begins:
    This is how Romans 10 ends:
    Thus, Romans 10 begins and ends with a discussion of the unbelief of Israel. The middle verses (10:4-15) contrast the righteousness of the law and the righteousness of faith. Quoting Leviticus 18:5, Paul says what the righteousness of the law says to do:
    Quoting Deuteronomy 30:11-14, Paul says what the righteousness of faith says NOT to do:
    What the righteousness of faith says NOT to do is the very thing that unbelieving Israel is doing. Still quoting Deuteronomy 30:11-14, Paul then says what the righteousness of faith says to do:
    This is what unbelieving Israel needs to do (but has not yet done) in order to acquire the righteousness of faith. In fact, it is what everyone, including the Gentiles, needs to do in order to acquire the righteousness of faith:
    From this point, Paul then finishes the chapter by recalling attention to the fact that Israel has nevertheless not done what the righteousness of faith says to do. Paul asks, “Have they not heard? … Did Israel not know?” The answer is yes, they’ve heard, and yes, they knew; but they haven’t responded. The last thing Paul says in Romans 10 is this:
    Thus, the subject of discussion in Romans 10 is the unbelief of Israel.

    In stating what the righteousness of faith says to do, Paul says that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, because the righteousness of faith is made available to everyone. This statement of fact does not alter the focus of Paul’s discussion in Romans 10, which is the failure of the majority of Israel to avail itself of the righteousness of faith that has been presented to everyone.


    Hervey:

    These two verses were "said" unto the Gentiles, not "about " the unbelieving Jews.


    Jim:

    Paul’s epistle to the church at Rome was not written exclusively to Gentiles, as the church was comprised of both Jewish and Gentile believers. Romans 10 was written TO the church at Rome ABOUT the failure of the majority of Israel to avail itself of the righteousness of faith, the same way that Jim is writing this post TO Hervey ABOUT Romans 10.

    The parenthetical statements in 10:6-7 are what the righteousness of faith says NOT to do. Those who do it are UNBELIEVERS, who have not availed themselves of the righteousness of faith.

    Paul is not telling believers what not to do in Romans 10:6-7. Rather, he is describing what unbelievers do. What the righteousness of faith says NOT to do in 10:6-7 is the very thing that unsaved people do. It would not be necessary for Paul to instruct saved people not to do what is described in 10:6-7, as only those who are unsaved do it, who do not possess the righteousness of faith.

    Paul is not describing in 10:6-7 believers judgmentally assigning people to heaven or hell. Neither is he describing believers wondering who will go to heaven or hell. He’s describing unbelievers asking who will ascend into heaven for their sakes, thus applying to the Gospel the same thought that is expressed in Deuteronomy 30:11-14, where it is asked, “Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?” This has nothing to do with either judging or wondering who will go to heaven. Rather, it has to do with rejecting what has already been done. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, the law had already be given to Israel. Under that circumstance, to ask, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us? would be a rejection of what had already been accomplished. Paul applies this same thought in Romans 10:6-7 to the Gospel: the righteousness of faith does not reject what Christ has already accomplished by asking for another Messiah to descend into the deep and to ascend into heaven; as Paul says in verses 10:8-9, it confesses Jesus Christ and believes that God raised Him from the dead.


    Hervey:

    All he is telling the Gentiles, is to not be concerned about who is going to ascend up into heaven or who is going to descend down into the deep. That is all Paul was telling the Gentiles, is to not be concerned about either .


    Jim:

    Your interpretation here takes Romans 10:6-7 out of context, the context being the meaning of the quoted phrases as they are clearly expressed in Deuteronomy 30:11-14. Just as the phrases in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 have nothing to do with judging or wondering who will go to heaven, likewise the phrases in Romans 10:6-7 which Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30:11-14 have nothing to do with judging or wondering who will go to heaven. In both passages, not asking who will ascend into heaven refers to the acceptance of what has already been accomplished. The righteousness of faith that Paul associates with the acceptance of Christ’s descent for us into the deep in Romans 10:7 is consistent with Christ’s descent into the lower parts of the earth as described by Paul in Ephesians 4:9.

    Your view, of course, does not accept this. Not only does your view not accept Deuteronomy 30:11-14 as the determiner of the correct meaning of the clause “Who shall ascend into heaven?” in Romans 10:6, neither does it accept Paul’s parenthetical statements in Romans 10:7 and Ephesians 4:9 as legitimate scripture. Thus, you and I disagree.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  19. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You said >Paul’s epistle to the church at Rome was not written exclusively to Gentiles, as the church was comprised of both Jewish and Gentile believers. Romans 10 was written TO the church at Rome ABOUT the failure of the majority of Israel to avail itself of the righteousness of faith, the same way that Jim is writing this post TO Hervey ABOUT Romans 10.

    The parenthetical statements in 10:6-7 are what the righteousness of faith says NOT to do. Those who do it are UNBELIEVERS, who have not availed themselves of the righteousness of faith.

    Paul is not telling believers what not to do in Romans 10:6-7. Rather, he is describing what unbelievers do. What the righteousness of faith says NOT to do in 10:6-7 is the very thing that unsaved people do. It would not be necessary for Paul to instruct saved people not to do what is described in 10:6-7, as only those who are unsaved do it, who do not possess the righteousness of faith.


    Jim: I know Paul's espistle was not written exclusively to Gentiles, but that does not change "who" he was talking too ! Hi ministry was unto Gentiles, and he was speaking to Gentiles, even if later on, Jews could read or the words become repeated of what Paul had said.

    You said that verses 6 & 7 are what the righteousness of faith says not to do (read your words above).

    Now look at verse 6 and read what is written - "But (this word always stands in contrast with what has been said before this word "but" - which was talking about Israel) the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise" (wisdom) - STOP reading and start thinking what it just said Jim. It is saying "righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise"(wisdom) ----- It is telling us "what" righteous wisdom "is". Righteous wisdom will not be concerned with who ascends up, or who decends down . This verse is "not" dealing with unbelief whatsoever !

    You Jim, are explaining what righteous wisdom - "is not" - thus declaring anyone who does this, is an unbeliever, and not saved. None of which could be further from the truth ! You have turned Romans 10:6 & 7 from a postive understanding of righteous wisdom, "which is of faith", - into a negative unbelieving , unsaved person, if they think the way you interpret the parentheticals.

    Talk about a total opposite of what "faith" and righteous wisdom "is", verses your interpretation of what it "is not" ! !

    Deut. was written unto the Jews (Israel), be it prophecy , or for them in that day and time. Just like it tells us in Romans 10:16 - 20. which was prophecy that was coming to pass right here in Chapter 10 of Romans.

    Deut. 30:11 was "for that day", and if you read the context of Deut. 30 you will not find anything that pertains to the conversation in Romans 10 ! You will find similar words, but thats it ! It is not prophecy pertaining to Romans 10. On the other hand , the prophecy about those that asked not after God, nor sought me not, came to pass - Romans 10:20.

    Romans 10:8 - "the word of faith we preach" -- then comes verses 9 & 10. Salvation is not about ascention , nor decending. The word of faith that they preached, is about "being raised from the dead", and the faith, of God raising Christ from the dead.

    Do you see the difference Jim ? Not ascention, or decending, but resurrection from the dead. <-- Do you see it, Jim ?

    This was the "righteous" wisdom that Paul was giving to those who belileve ! Jew or Greek ! Not to think on who ascends or who decends, but on the "resurrection" from the dead. All will rise from the dead, but not all will ascend into heaven, and some will decend inot the deep. But don't think about it in your heart as to whom ! !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  20. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    It is saying "righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise"(wisdom) ----- It is telling us "what" righteous wisdom "is". Righteous wisdom will not be concerned with who ascends up, or who decends down .


    Jim:

    The phrase “on this wise” in Romans 10:6 is rendered from the Greek word “houto” (3779, in this manner, thus, so, click here). It does not refer to wisdom anymore than the word “thus” or “so” does.

    Romans 10:6-9 does describe righteous wisdom. It describes “the righteousness which of faith” as opposed to “the righteousness which is of the law,” which is described in verse 10:5.

    Verses 10:6-7 tell us what the righteousness which is of faith does NOT say (what it IS NOT), whereas verses 10:8-9 tell us what the righteousness which is of faith DOES say (what it IS).

    Those who are saved have the righteousness which is of faith, whereas those who are NOT saved do NOT have the righteousness which is of faith. Therefore, what is described in 10:6-7 is associated with those who are NOT saved, whereas what is described in 10:8-9 is associated with those who are saved. Thus, those who say in their hearts, Who shall ascend into heaven? or, Who shall descend into the deep? are NOT saved.


    Hervey:

    You Jim, are explaining what righteous wisdom - "is not" - thus declaring anyone who does this, is an unbeliever, and not saved.


    Jim:

    No. Romans 10:6-7 describes what the righteousness which is of faith is NOT (“Say NOT …”). Those who say in their hearts the things that the righteousness which is of faith tells us NOT to say, which things are described in 10:6-7, are NOT saved.


    Hervey:

    Deut. 30:11 was "for that day", and if you read the context of Deut. 30 you will not find anything that pertains to the conversation in Romans 10 ! You will find similar words, but thats it ! It is not prophecy pertaining to Romans 10.


    Jim:

    Deuteronomy 30:11-14 is not a prophecy at all. It doesn’t predict anything. It expresses a principle to Israel that if they accept what has been given to them, then they do not go looking for it somewhere else. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, this principle is applied to the law.

    In his epistles, Paul quotes the Old Testament either to apply a fulfillment of prophecy or to apply a principle to a subject of discussion. Deuteronomy 30:11-14 is not a prophecy, and Paul is not discussing the law but the righteousness which is of faith in Romans 10:6-8, where he chooses to quote Deuteronomy 30:11-14. This leaves only one reason why Paul would quote Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10:6-8: He quotes it to apply the principle described in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to the righteousness which is of faith in Romans 10:6-8. Thus, Romans 10:6-7 expresses the principle that to possess the righteousness which is of faith is to NOT look for someone else to do what Christ has already done. To look for someone else to do these things is to reject what Christ has already done, thus in a sense to undo His ascension and descent, or “to bring Christ down from above” and “to bring up Christ again from the dead.”


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
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