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New Heaven and New Earth

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hervey, Jan 15, 2002.

  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    What does the Lake of fire, and the bottomless pit, the grave, and hell have to do with this subject title - called > The New Heaven and the New Earth ? ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  2. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    #2 - The bottomless "pit" in the book of Rev. is the only word which has smoke coming up from it. > Rev. 9:2 & Rev. 14:11 - There is a smoke ascending up from the "pit", as from a great furnace.


    Jim:

    In Luke 16:23-24, Lazarus is “tormented” in the “flame” of “hell.” The end has not yet come, because Lazarus requests that his five brothers be warned about hell (16:27-29). So then are you saying that hell has to be the lake of fire because both are hot?

    There’s smoke associated with the bottomless pit (9:2-3), with the destruction of a third of the earth’s population (9:17-18), with the torment of those who worship the beast (14:11) and with the destruction of Babylon (18:9, 18:18 and 19:3). Are these all the same smoke? If not, then why should we conclude that hell and the lake of fire are the same place simply because they’re both hot; that is, why should we conclude that it’s the same heat and the same fire?

    Verse 20:14 says that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. That’s what it says. What is your scriptural basis for concluding that hell is literal but the lake of fire is not? And what do you mean when you say that the lake of fire is figurative?


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  3. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    My replies within your last post below, in this color black and dark red. >


    Jim:

    In Luke 16:23-24, Lazarus is “tormented” in the “flame” of “hell.” The end has not yet come, because Lazarus requests that his five brothers be warned about hell (16:27-29). So then are you saying that hell has to be the lake of fire because both are hot?

    First: It was the "rich man" who was in hell looking afar off at Abraham and Lazarus. You can see this in verse 25. This must be understood also in the parable message that it is given in, and the message that should be received by this parable. Hell here in this parable, is the Lake of fire , and is used as a message to promote understanding.

    There’s smoke associated with the bottomless pit (9:2-3), with the destruction of a third of the earth’s population (9:17-18), with the torment of those who worship the beast (14:11) and with the destruction of Babylon (18:9, 18:18 and 19:3). Are these all the same smoke? If not, then why should we conclude that hell and the lake of fire are the same place simply because they’re both hot; that is, why should we conclude that it’s the same heat and the same fire?

    Yes, these verses are the smoke "from" the bottomless pit, which comes from the Lake of fire, "in" the bottomless pit.

    Verse 20:14 says that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. That’s what it says. What is your scriptural basis for concluding that hell is literal but the lake of fire is not? And what do you mean when you say that the lake of fire is figurative?


    This "hell" is the "grave" as I have already explained, that these two words are translated from the same Greek and Hebrew word.

    The reason one is literal and the other is figurative, is because our "hell - grave" is where we go after we literally die. We have no more ability to think or feel , nor to reason, nor is there any emotions after we die. And there will not be until one of the two resurrections. But as the parable in Luke and the explanation, that in the second death, there is torment forever and ever. > Rev.14:11 & Rev. 20:10. In Mark 3:29 tells us that it will be "eternal damnation". The second death is figurative, which is the Lake of fire. The first death is literal, and the second death is figurative, in that , they will have a full understanding , and the ability to reason out what is going on with them, and around them. That they are being tormented day and night forever. This is 'not' a literal torment either, in case you would want to know.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  4. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Jim (previous post):

    There’s smoke associated with the bottomless pit (9:2-3), with the destruction of a third of the earth’s population (9:17-18), with the torment of those who worship the beast (14:11) and with the destruction of Babylon (18:9, 18:18 and 19:3). Are these all the same smoke? If not, then why should we conclude that hell and the lake of fire are the same place simply because they’re both hot; that is, why should we conclude that it’s the same heat and the same fire?


    Hervey:

    Yes, these verses are the smoke "from" the bottomless pit, which comes from the Lake of fire, "in" the bottomless pit.


    Jim:

    The smoke of Babylon burning (18:9, 18:18, 19:3) is the result of what ten kings do (17:12 and 17:16). How can that be smoke from the lake of fire?


    Jim (previous post):

    Verse 20:14 says that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. That’s what it says. What is your scriptural basis for concluding that hell is literal but the lake of fire is not? And what do you mean when you say that the lake of fire is figurative?


    Hervey:

    This "hell" is the "grave" as I have already explained, that these two words are translated from the same Greek and Hebrew word. … We have no more ability to think or feel , nor to reason, nor is there any emotions after we die. And there will not be until one of the two resurrections. … The first death is literal, and the second death is figurative, in that , they will have a full understanding , and the ability to reason out what is going on with them, and around them.


    Jim:

    According to Strong’s concordance, the definition of hell extends beyond the grave to the netherworld, or the underworld, as does also its definition of the pit. Acts 2:25-31 says that Christ went to "hell" when He died. Romans 10:6-8 indicates that Christ went into "the deep," which is rendered from the same Greek word from which the phrase "bottomless pit" is rendered in Revelation 11:7 and 17:8. Whereas Christ's grave was actually in a sort of groud-level cave with a stone rolled in front of it, Christ said in Matthew 12:40 that he would spend three days and nights in the "heart" (2588, kardia, the middle) of the earth. This is consistent with Strong's definition of the "deep" and the "pit," in which it describes "a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons."

    According to Christ’s parable in Luke 16:19-31, the rich man in hell wanted someone from the dead to warn his five living brothers about hell, who had only the writings of Moses as evidence that there was such a place. This describes a pre-judgment scene. If it were post-judgment, the rich man wouldn’t have five living brothers in need of warning, as they would have already been judged and would probably be sharing in the flame with their brother.

    Evidence of consciousness after death is also found in the transfiguration, where Moses was seen speaking with Christ on the mountain (Luke 9:30).


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  5. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Like I said before, there is no remembrance in death, and the proof of this is in Psalm 6:5

    The transfiguration was nothing more than a "revealing", by way of revelation.

    Jim asked >

    The smoke of Babylon burning (18:9, 18:18, 19:3) is the result of what ten kings do (17:12 and 17:16). How can that be smoke from the lake of fire?

    Jim , Do you know who the whore is, which is spoken about in the book of Revelation ? Read chapters 17 , 18 , 19 of the book of Revelation.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  6. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Like I said before, there is no remembrance in death, and the proof of this is in Psalm 6:5. The transfiguration was nothing more than a "revealing", by way of revelation. Jim asked , “The smoke of Babylon burning (18:9, 18:18, 19:3) is the result of what ten kings do (17:12 and 17:16). How can that be smoke from the lake of fire?” Jim, Do you know who the whore is, which is spoken about in the book of Revelation ? Read chapters 17 , 18 , 19 of the book of Revelation.


    Jim:

    Whereas some Old-Testament verses can be cited that seem to be consistent with the idea that there is no consciousness of the soul/spirit after physical death, there is at least one Old-Testament passage and there are several New-Testament passages that can be cited that are clearly consistent with the idea that there is consciousness after physical death.

    It appears to me from Psalms, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes that it is possible that David and Solomon incorrectly believed that there is no consciousness of the soul/spirit after physical death. However, it is also possible that when they said that the dead don’t know anything, they were speaking in the context of the land of the living; that is, it possible that they meant that the souls/spirits of the dead are not in touch with what’s going on in the physical world.

    As for an Old-Testament passage that is consistent with the souls/spirits of the dead being conscious, there is 1 Samuel 28.

    In 1 Samuel 28, the writer says, “… Samuel was dead … Saul disguised himself … and he said [to the medium at Endor], Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice … And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he [Saul] said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that is was Samuel … And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered … that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel … the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me …”

    The concept of a soul/spirit being “brought up” from the dead is consistent with the souls/spirits of the dead being in the underworld in accordance with the definition of the word “sheol” (click here) in the Old Testament, which descends deeply into the earth. The word “disquieted” in verse 28:15 is rendered from the Hebrew word transliterated “ragaz” (7264), which means to quiver with violent emotion, especially with anger or fear. An examination of this word’s definitions and uses in the Old Testament (click hear) reveals that this word has nothing to do with an arousal from sleep or from unconsciousness. Thus, in 1 Samuel 28, in which the soul/spirit of Samuel is “brought up” from Sheol by the medium of Endor to interact with Saul, there is no evidence that the soul/spirit of Samuel is unconscious after the death of his body. In verse 28:19, Samuel predicts that the souls/spirits of Saul and his sons will join his soul/spirit in Sheol the very next day.

    In Luke 23:43, Christ says to the repentant thief crucified next to Him, “… To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” The word “paradise” is rendered from the Greek word transliterated “paradeisos” (click here). This word has nothing to do with the grave. Thus, the place where the souls/spirits of Christ and the repentant thief went when their bodies died was not the grave; it was someplace else: “paradise.” According to Matthew 12:40, “paradise” may have been located “in the heart of the earth.” Acts 2:25-31 says that the soul/spirit of Christ went to “hell” (86, hades) when His body died. So whether Christ went both to “paradise” and to “hades,” or whether “paradise” was a section of “hades,” I don’t know.

    I’ve already mentioned the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 and the transfiguration in Luke 9:30 as evidence that the soul/spirit is conscious after the body dies. You say that “the transfiguration was nothing more than a ‘revealing,’ by way of revelation.” However, regardless of what you meant by that, Luke 9:30 says, “And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias.” That’s what is says. Your explanation doesn’t offer any scriptural basis for concluding that the souls/spirits of Moses and Elias weren’t really there with Christ on that mountain. So I’m faced with a choice: (1) I can accept what Luke 9:30 says happened on that mountain. (2) I can take your word for it that what Luke 9:30 says happened on that mountain didn’t really happen. Guess which option I choose.

    In Philippians 1:21-24, Paul says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. … For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better [for Paul]: nevertheless to abide with the flesh is more needful for you.” Why would Paul consider dying to be better for him, something he desired, if it just meant that he would go to the grave in unconsciousness? Paul says that to “die” is to “be with Christ,” which is something he “desired.” Did Paul desire unconsciousness? Is to be with Christ to be unconscious? I don’t think so.

    Paul says the same thing in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8: “… We are … willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Paul says we’d rather be present with the Lord than be physically alive. How could that be a preference unless we would be conscious to appreciate it? If we were unconscious, we wouldn’t know we were present with the Lord. How could something that we couldn’t even experience (due to unconsciousness) be a preference? The only way this passage makes sense is if we would be conscious to enjoy the presence of the Lord.

    The fifth seal (Revelation 6:9-11) shows the souls/spirits of the dead in Christ consciously aware of their presence with the Lord:
    The souls/spirits of these people are not in the graves with their dead bodies; they’re in heaven with the Lord. These people are not unconscious; they’re talking with the Lord. These people had not previously been unconscious; they were very much aware of how long they had been waiting thus far, and they were wondering how much longer they were going to have to wait. They are told to “rest” until the martyrdom of their fellow servants is completed. This word “rest” is rendered from the Greek word transliterated “anapauo” (click hear). Neither sleep nor unconsciousness is one of its definitions. Of its thirteen uses, only two are associated with sleep, where Christ says to His disciples, “… Sleep on now, and take your rest …” In these two instances, “rest” is something that accompanies “sleep;” it is not “sleep” itself, otherwise these two passages would say, “… Sleep on now, and take your [sleep] …,” which would be redundant. In the other eleven uses of this word, there is no association with sleep. It merely means to rest or to relax. In the fifth seal, the souls/spirits of the dead in Christ were getting impatient, and the Lord told them to “rest,” or to relax, because the appointed time would not come for some time. Thus, there is no evidence that the souls/spirits of the dead are unconscious in Revelation 6:9-11.

    As for “who the whore is” in Revelation 17-19, she is a city: “… I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters … and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast … And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH … And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. … these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. … And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.”


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  7. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Jim, the dead are dead until one of the two resurrections, and not until then.

    I Corinth. 15:16 - "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised"

    Christ was the first fruit from the dead >

    I Corinth. 15:20 - "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept"

    If Christ was the first, then all other verses that you mentioned are nothing more than "revealings" = "Revelations".

    That is correct Jim, the whore in the book of Revelation is that great city which reigned over the Kings of the earth. And >

    She (the whore) the great city Babylon is the dwelling place of devils - Rev. 18:2.

    It is "she" that is buring in the "pit", and the devil spirits that dwell in her.

    I noticed that you strayed from our conversation, and I am trying to bring you back to what we were talking about.

    This whore, which is a great city, is also the hold of every foul spirit, and is a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (evil spirits). - Rev. 18:2.

    Like I told you before, in the Word there is two of everything.

    The New Earth is the "holy" city , the New Jerusalem . While the "evil" city is the Babylon of devils.

    This is why we see what we read in Rev. 20:2 & 3 - that the devil , and Satan , and God bound him a thousand years , and cast him into the bottomless pit, which is the Lake of fire. When God does this the "second time" , it will be forever !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  8. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Jim, the dead are dead until one of the two resurrections, and not until then. I Corinth. 15:16 - "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised" Christ was the first fruit from the dead > I Corinth. 15:20 - "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept" If Christ was the first, then all other verses that you mentioned are nothing more than "revealings" = "Revelations".


    Jim:

    1 Corinthians 15 addresses the body, not the soul/spirit. You’re using scripture regarding the body to dismiss scripture regarding the soul/spirit, as if scripture regarding the body and scripture regarding the soul/spirit were incompatible. They’re not incompatible; both sets of scripture are equally correct.

    What you’re doing here is no different than using Ephesians 1:14 to dismiss Ephesians 1:7.
    Whereas Ephesians 1:7 speaks of the redemption of the soul/spirit, Ephesians 1:14 speaks of the redemption of the body. Our souls/spirits have redemption now, whereas our bodies will have redemption at the coming of the Lord. As Paul says in Romans 8:23, “… we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” To dismiss either Ephesians 1:7 or Ephesians 1:14 because of what the other says is to misunderstand both verses.

    In the following passages, we already have salvation and redemption, yet we also await salvation and redemption:
    What we already have applies to the soul/spirit. What we await applies to the body.

    1 Corinthians 15 addresses what we await: the redemption of the body. What is said in this chapter regarding our bodies is not the slightest bit inconsistent with what is said elsewhere in the New Testament regarding or souls/spirits.

    In 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, Paul discusses both the body and the soul/spirit:
    Verses 5:1-4 discuss what we await: the redemption of the body. Verses 5:5-8 discuss what we already have: the redemption of the soul/spirit. What we await in verses 5:1-4 does not in anyway contradict or interfere with what we already have in verses 5:5-8, which is this: (1) We have the earnest (the down-payment) of the Spirit. (2) If we die, our souls/spirits become absent from our mortal bodies and present with the Lord, which is actually preferable to remaining physically alive.


    Hervey:

    It is "she" that is buring in the "pit", and the devil spirits that dwell in her. … This whore, which is a great city, is also the hold of every foul spirit, and is a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (evil spirits). - Rev. 18:2. Like I told you before, in the Word there is two of everything. The New Earth is the "holy" city , the New Jerusalem . While the "evil" city is the Babylon of devils.


    Jim:

    If the holy city were the new earth, then the evil city would be the first earth. According to your logic here, Babylon would have to be the first earth. However, if, as you said, “it is she that is burning in the pit, and the devil spirits that dwell in her,” then there would be nothing left for the kings and the merchants to mourn; there would be nothing left at all. Moreover, the bottomless pit is located inside the first earth, which would not be compatible with the first earth being located in the pit.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Jim, you are making a mess of this discussion ! I can not follow your train of thought, because it does not follow a pattern of any kind.

    Your claiming that people who are dead are not really dead because they can pop up where ever and when ever they want too.

    None of this is making any sense Jim !

    Either they are dead , when they are dead , or they are not dead when you say that they are dead.

    Time for two asprin :)

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  10. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Either they are dead , when they are dead , or they are not dead when you say that they are dead.


    Jim:

    Are you saying that there is not a distinction in scripture between the soul/spirit of a person and his or her body? Are you saying that whatever is true of the body must also be true of the soul/spirit?

    Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:5-8). That’s about a clearly as on can say it. Your argument isn’t with me, it’s with Paul.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  11. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    I would never argue with Paul :) Especailly when his words became a part of the Word of God. But understanding those words can be what separates those who understand from those who only think that they understand.

    Jim: Your soul does not go off by itself , while you body is dead, and appear to someone, and hold a conversation with that someone ! Can you now see how I am finding this to be a little humorous ?

    Which body are you thinking that Paul was talking about in II Corinth. 5 - #1 - His own body , or #2 - the body of Christ ?

    I am assuming that you mean #1 - his own body ?

    If so, then you are misunderstanding this verse of scripture, because the correct answer is #2 - the body of Christ.

    If you think it is talking about your own body, then you would have to explain what it says in II Corith. 5:9. And don't tell me with 50 verses of scripture that when you die you then go unto the Lord leaving your body behind. The body and the soul never leave one another. The soul is breath life, and is either your words or your thoughts/remembrance. When you die, you stop breathing, and your body goes back to dust. But, because of what God did through Christ, all are going to be raised from the dead. They will return unto their remembrance. Not of the evil things, but of the good. Such as who your father and mother were/are , and who your children/offspring were/are. When Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, he did not forget anyone's name, or who they were. That is because your "soul" is raised with you from the dead.

    The spirit that God gives every human being, is called the spirit of man, and goes back to God who is the giver, and because the spirit can not die ! Spirits do not die ! That is why the Lake of fire is "forever and ever" ! It is called the second death - figuratively.

    Only Christians retain the spirit of God's Son in them, which is Christ in them. This spirit does not go back to God, when you die. That is why in the scriptures we are told that we "sleep", because the spirit of His Son in us - Christ in us, can not die. So it sleeps.

    There are two resurrection #1 which comes second, is the resurrection of those who are going to be raised incorruptible, and the other , is the resurrection #2 , which comes first, which are those who God will raise immortal - I Corinth. 15:35 - 54.

    And we are told that there is an order for these resurrections - I Corinth. 15:22 & 23 & 29

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  12. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Which body are you thinking that Paul was talking about in II Corinth. 5 - #1 - His own body , or #2 - the body of Christ ? I am assuming that you mean #1 - his own body ? If so, then you are misunderstanding this verse of scripture, because the correct answer is #2 - the body of Christ.


    Jim:

    In Ephesians 1:22-23, Paul says, “… and gave him [Christ] to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” To be absent from the body Christ is to not be in the body of Christ, which is to not be saved. That would not qualify a person to be in the presence of the Lord. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:13, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” To be absent from this body is not to be present with the Lord; to be absent from this body is to be unsaved.



    Hervey:

    The body and the soul never leave one another.


    Jim:

    That’s not what Paul teaches. In Philippians 1:21-24, Paul says, “For to me TO LIVE IS CHRIST, AND TO DIE IS GAIN. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire TO DEPART, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which IS FAR BETTER: Nevertheless TO ABIDE IN THE FLESH is more needful for you.” Here Paul is saying that he personally would rather be absent from his body and present with the Lord, but the need for him on earth persuades him that the necessity for him to remain in his body outweighs his desire to leave his body and to be with the Lord. Paul reiterates this sentiment in 2 Corinthians 5:8, where he says, “…willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

    This concept of vacating the body at death to be with the Lord is also expressed by Peter in anticipation of his decease in 2 Peter 1:13-15, where he says, “Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am IN THIS TABERNACLE, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that SHORTLY I MUST PUT OFF THIS MY TABERNACLE, even AS OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST HATH SHEWED ME [referring to John 21:18-25]. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after MY DECEASE to have these things always in remembrance.”


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  13. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You are not reading these verses of scripture correctly. And you did not explain verse 9. Jesus Christ died, and God raised him from the dead, and then ascended him up into heaven, "then" God made Christ the head of the body of Christ. Christ is the head, and the members are his body. The head is separated from his body. That gives us the picture of a beheaded person , which is what happened to John the baptist.

    Verse 6 - "Therefore we are always confident , knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body ( of Christ ) we are absent from the Lord" ( We will not be with the Lord , until the gathering up - I Thess. 4:13 - 18)

    Jim, these verses are spiritual , and must be looked at in the spiritual sense/understanding.

    Lets continue on , looking at these verses >

    Verse 7 - "For we walk by faith, not by sight"

    I can see people who are alive , walking around in their own bodies. But we are to understand these verses , not with our eyes, but with our spiritual understandings. For even David has not ascended up and his grave is still with us - Acts 2:29 & 34. Remember Jim, that the "grave" and "hell" are the "same" Hebrew and / or Greek word !

    Verse 8 - "We are confident , I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

    The body of Christ is the wife to Christ. This wife to Christ , is going to become "one" at the gathering. We will no longer be two, but one. This body, the body of Christ will we be absent from, "when" we become one with Christ, at the gathering. So, when we are absent from this body of Christ, then we will be one with Christ, which does not occur until the gathering up. It even tells us in I Thess. 4:15 - that we will not preceed them that are asleep ! In the KJV it is the word "prevent" , which is a very poor translation . My concordance to the KJV says this ! It is the Greek word - "phthano" which is translated 4 times "come", and only one time - "prevent". But even in the concordance it tells us that it "means" to "preceed", or in this case "not preceed" - that which are asleep. So no one will preceed another to be with the Lord.

    Verse 9 - "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent , we may be accepted of him"

    This is the verse I asked you to explain, which you decided not too. This verse is telling us , that what we do in our labour , that we may be accepted of him of our labours. Whether present or absent - means - Whether we are still here in this body of Christ, or whether present with him at the judgement seat of Christ.

    Context:

    Verse 10 - This is the judgement seat of Christ , where "only" Christians are judged. And this verse is part of the context of what it says in verse 9.

    Philippians 1:21 - 24 should be looked at in the same spiritual light that I have explained in II Corinth. 5, because they mean the same thing as I have explain above. Death is an enemy, and to die in never gain , in a literal sense. So these verses, again, must be looked at in spiritual light / understanding.

    Paul is saying that we are to consider these bodies - this body, dead - Romans 6:7 & 8 - is gain - verse 21. < That is what this verse is saying ! !

    Then Paul says in verse 22 - That if I live in the flesh ( then I do not consider this body dead), this is the fruit of my labour.

    In verse 23 Paul is saying that he is stuggling between his flesh and the Spirit. So it is better to consider this body dead, which is gain, which is to live with Christ, which is far better than to consider this body not dead, and live in the flesh. (Galatians chapter 5 - works of the "flesh" - verses 19 & 20 & 21) But if you consider your body dead, which is gain, then you produce the fruit of the Spirit - Galatians 5:22 & 23.

    Galatians 5:24 - "And they that are Christ's have crucified(died/dead) the flesh with the affections and lusts"

    Galatians 5:25 - "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit"

    This is what it means --- "to die, is gain"

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  14. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    In Philippians 1:23-24, the option isn’t whether to be spiritual or carnal, but whether to “depart” [as in the dearly departed] and “be with Christ” or whether to “abide [continue] in the flesh,” which is more necessary for the Philippians. Remaining alive and in the body [in the flesh] was more necessary for the benefit of the Philippians. Being carnal would not have been of any benefit to anyone.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  15. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You said in a prvious post >

    Jim:

    If the holy city were the new earth, then the evil city would be the first earth. According to your logic here, Babylon would have to be the first earth. However, if, as you said, “it is she that is burning in the pit, and the devil spirits that dwell in her,” then there would be nothing left for the kings and the merchants to mourn; there would be nothing left at all. Moreover, the bottomless pit is located inside the first earth, which would not be compatible with the first earth being located in the pit.


    Jim: What I would like you to do , is to stop assuming what I believe. I say this because when you assume what I believe, then it only hinders our communication with one another.

    I do not believe that the great city , called Babylon , who is also the whore, which is where all the devil spirits dwell, after her fall, is not this whole earth. It is after Babylon falls , that she becomes the dwelling place of all the devil spirits. And not until then. There is a waring in Rev. 18:4 which tells all to come out of her. And this is a warning that is given prior to her fall. She is a queen and is not a widow - verse 7. Her fall is one that occures when she is cast down into the pit , which is the Lake of fire.

    The whore sits on waters (plural) which are "peoples" - "and "multitudes" - and "nations" - and "tongues", as explained in Rev. 17:15.

    And in verse 16 the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast will hate the whore, and God has put int their hearts to agree, and they will make her desolate , and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. < So you can see that she is going to burn "twice". Once here, and again when she is cast down into the pit, which is the Lake of fire. And lets not forget , that when she has fallen, she is the dwelling place for all devil spirits.

    Those who have committed fornication with her and do not come out of her will receive her plagues.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  16. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    I do not follow what you are saying here, and I do not believe that it is lineing up with what these verse "are" saying !

    You said >

    In Philippians 1:23-24, the option isn’t whether to be spiritual or carnal, but whether to “depart” [as in the dearly departed] and “be with Christ” or whether to “abide [continue] in the flesh,” which is more necessary for the Philippians. Remaining alive and in the body [in the flesh] was more necessary for the benefit of the Philippians. Being carnal would not have been of any benefit to anyone.

    What Paul is saying, is that they are abiding with their literal minds instead of their spiritual minds. That is why he tells them in verse 25 & 26 that he will abide with them , so that he can help them understand spiritual things, that their rejoicing may 'be more' abundant in Jesus Christ by coming to them again.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  17. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. … I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to DEPART [360], and to be with Christ; which is far better [for Paul]: nevertheless to abide [continue] in the flesh [in the body] is more needful for you [the Philippians]. – Philippians 1:21-24

    Paul is having trouble deciding here; he is in a straight betwixt two. This is not about being spiritual or not being spiritual; Paul has no trouble deciding whether to be spiritual or not. He has trouble deciding whether to remain in the flesh (in the body), which is more needful for the Philippians and for the rest of churches, or whether to depart from the flesh (from the body), or die, and to be with Christ, which is more desirable for Paul.

    About four years later, according to the Chronological Bible, as Paul realizes that he hasn’t much time left, he writes:

    For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my DEPARTURE [359] is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day [the judgment of the saints occurs at the coming of the Lord according to 1 Corinthians 4:5]: and not to me only, but unto all them that love his appearing.

    In 2 Timothy 4:6, Paul is no longer running the race and reaching for the prize; he has finished his course and is confident he will receive the prize (a crown of righteousness). His ministry is over. He has kept the faith, and his “departure” to be with Christ is at hand; it would not be much longer until he would be martyred.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  18. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    According to your explanation, you are expressing death from a point of view , that death is a friend, and not an enemy.

    The Word of God is clear, that death is the result of sin, and sin is death, and death is an enemy.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  19. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    According to your explanation, you are expressing death from a point of view , that death is a friend, and not an enemy. The Word of God is clear, that death is the result of sin, and sin is death, and death is an enemy.


    Jim:

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

    O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. – 1 Corinthians 15:55-57

    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. – Hebrews 2:14-15

    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. – Revelation 2:10

    The advantage to being in Christ is that death is no longer something to be feared. In saying, “to die is gain,” and, “willing rather to be absent from the body,” Paul echoes this advantage.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  20. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    I didn't say "fear" death Jim !

    I said , that your replies, even this last post, is showing an overcoming, as a form of making death a friend , instead of an enemy , which it is !

    By this type of believing , we see the same thing that Satan told the woman - "ye shall not surely die". You are making death a type of life. As if there is not time inbetween death and life again. If this is what you are proposing, then you are indeed implying that there is no death, and that you are not really dying, only going to a better place.

    In my understanding of the scriptures, this then is nothing more than a lie from the author of the lie, Satan himself.

    Even Jesus Christ was dead for three days and three nights.

    The Word of God tells us that David has not ascended up into the heavens, and his grave is still with us. You might say that he was not a Christian, and I would agree. But my point is this, even though he is not a Christian, he has to wait. And what you fail to see, is that Christians, when they die, have to "wait" also, until Christ come to gather up the Church - I Thess. 4:13 - 18

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
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