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New Heaven and New Earth

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hervey, Jan 15, 2002.

  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You said >It appears to me from these two verses that the names of people are not written in the book of life until they get saved.

    If this is true, then why can we not find any scripture to substantiate it ?

    Here is another verse for you to think about. It tells us of the two books.

    Psalms 69:28 - "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living , and not be written with the righteous"

    Christians are "righteous" in the eyes of God, and their names are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

    This verse in Psalms also substantiates what it is saying in Rev. 13:8, that their names were blotted out of the book of the living, and not written with the righteous.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  2. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,631
    Atheist
    Private
    Jim,

    Please....my eyes!!! Is it possible for you to post without the extra large, color brilliant, bold text? I really do want to read what you have to share, but I start getting headaches and my eyes start to recess into my scull when I try to read most of your posts.

    Thanks,
    John
     
  3. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey (previous post):

    When the Word of God says that their names were not written in the book of life of the Lamb, that is what it means ! Plain and simple !

    Rev. 13:8 says that their names were "not written " in the book of life of the Lamb.

    If their names were "not written" in the book of life of the Lamb, then they must have their names in the "other" book of life !


    Hervey (last post):

    This verse in Psalms also substantiates what it is saying in Rev. 13:8, that their names were blotted out of the book of the living, and not written with the righteous


    Jim:

    First you say they aren’t blotted out in 13:8, now you say they are.

    I myself don’t see any mention of blotting either in 13:8 or in 17:8. The former says that they are not written when they worship the beast, and the latter says that those who will wonder at the beast were not written from the foundation of the world.

    No blotting in sight.


    Hervey (previous post):

    The worst thing one could be , was an enemy of Israel, because being an enemy of Israel, was being an enemy of God. The same is true with Christians , who are IN Christ, and the same is with the seven churches of Asia, which btw is future. Those who worship the beast were enemies of God. And they were treated like enemies of God.


    Hervey (last post):

    Here is another verse for you to think about. It tells us of the two books. Psalms 69:28 - "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living , and not be written with the righteous"


    Jim:

    David is talking about his enemies here. Just as there is no evidence that the enemies of God were ever written in the book of life in Revelation 17:8, I see no reason to assume that David’s enemies in this Psalm were ever written in the book of life either. The clause “Let them be blotted out of the book of the living” could simply be a request for their physical deaths; the phrase “and not be written with the righteous” could simply be a request that they not be shown mercy by God in the future.

    The Geneva Study Bible offers the following commentary on this verse:
    I edited my last post and added some stuff to it. In case you didn’t see it, here it is:

    Sincerely,
    Jim


    PS (to John): Sorry about the bright colors. I just learned how to alter the text, and I’m having some fun.
     
  4. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    … the same is with the seven churches of Asia, which btw is future.


    Jim:

    “The seven churches which are in Asia” were seven actual first-century churches in Asia Minor. In Revelation 1:11, John is instructed to write down the vision and to send what he writes to these seven churches. In 1:4, John explicitly addresses the written prophecy to these seven churches: "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace ..." In addressing these seven churches in 1:9, John refers to himself as “your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.”

    In addition to being referenced in Revelation 1:11 and 2:1-6, the church of Ephesus is also referenced in Acts 18-20, in 1 Corinthians 16, in 1 Timothy 1 and in 2 Timothy 1 and 4, as well as in Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians.

    In addition to being referenced in Revelation 1:11 and 2:18-25, Thyatira is also referenced in Acts 16, where at least one family of believers is mentioned.

    In addition to being referenced in Revelation 1:11 and 3:14-19, the church of Laodicea is also referenced in Colossians 2 and 4.

    In Revelation 2:13, the past martyrdom (it had already taken place) of a specific individual (Antipas) at Pergamos is mentioned. In Revelation 2:20-23, the past misdeeds (they had already taken place) of a specific false prophetess (Jezebel) at Thyatira are mentioned.

    These were historic first-century Christian churches. As far as I know, there is no reason not to believe that John wrote down the vision of the prophecy he received and sent it to these seven churches exactly as He was instructed to do by Christ through Christ's angel.

    I see no reason to believe that Christ’s angel was winking at John when he instructed him to write what he saw in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia. I also see no reason to believe that John would wish to test the merit of the warning in 22:18-19 by not following his instructions exactly as they were given to him.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  5. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You said >First you say they aren’t blotted out in 13:8, now you say they are.

    I myself don’t see any mention of blotting either in 13:8 or in 17:8. The former says that they are not written when they worship the beast, and the latter says that those who will wonder at the beast were not written from the foundation of the world.

    No blotting in sight.


    Jim, I never contradicted myself. I never said any such thing ! I have allways contended , that one's name had to be written in one or the other books of life. And the "only" way in which one's name is not in one or the other book of life, is to have their name blotted out.

    You don't see any blotting out in these two verses, because it does not say blotted out in either of these two verses. We need the knowledge from the rest of the Word of God to find out how one's name is not in a certain book of life. The answer is in many verses that you and I have already discussed. God is the one who blots out their name.

    In these two records of Rev. we both see the "not" writting their names in the book of life. Either "are" or "were not" in these two records. Neither of us are blind to this fact.

    But we have not determind "who" these who dwell on the earth and - "who wonder" are ! One thing we do know about them, is that they do not worship the beast. Unlike Rev. 13:8 of which we "know" they did.

    I have to go do some things, and I pray to get back to this conversation once I have gotten my daily things out of the way.


    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  6. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    But we have not determind "who" these WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH and - "WHO WONDER" are ! One thing we do know about them, is that THEY DO NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST. Unlike Rev. 13:8 of which we "know" they did.


    Jim:

    I disagree:

    Same people, same book. "ALL" who are not written in "the book of life," otherwise known as "the book of life of the Lamb," will "wonder" and "worship" and ultimately burn.


    Sincerely,
    Jim

    PS:

    You said this: "One thing we do know about them [in 17:8, who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE], is that THEY DO NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST. Unlike Rev. 13:8 of which WE "KNOW" THEY [in 13:8, who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB] DID."

    You seem to be trying to argue that although the people who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB in 13:8 worship the beast and therefore burn, the people who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE in 17:8 do not worship the beast and therefore do not burn. Doesn’t this logic run contrary to your view, according to which those who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE burn, whereas those who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB do not burn?
    [/size]
     
  7. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    I'm back from my labour as you might have guessed, seeing I am posting once again :)

    The first thing I would like to say, is that you make some good points in this last post. However , there are still some fine lines that need to be addressed, that will show that Rev. 13:8 and Rev.17:8 are two different periods of time, and thus renders the word "all" in the context of Rev. 13:8 not valid , when reading Rev. 17:8.

    You said > You said this: "One thing we do know about them [in 17:8, who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE], is that THEY DO NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST. Unlike Rev. 13:8 of which WE "KNOW" THEY [in 13:8, who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB] DID."

    You seem to be trying to argue that although the people who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB in 13:8 worship the beast and therefore burn, the people who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE in 17:8 do not worship the beast and therefore do not burn. Doesn’t this logic run contrary to your view, according to which those who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE burn, whereas those who are not written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB do not burn?


    The first thing I would like to address is your confusion over what "I am saying" !

    I am not saying that the people who are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb will therefore burn. I have told before, and I will tell you again, that I believe as Rev. 20:15 states, that those whoes names are not in the book of life will end up in the Lake of fire - second death. <-- That is what I believe and have not wavered from it at any point in our discussions.

    All that Rev. 13:8 is telling us, is that these who worship the beast ( "all" in this context ) , their names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb . The biggest problem people have in reading the scriptures , is what is called a closed mind. Please do not take offense to what I just said, for even I used to be closed minded myself. It was when my eyes became opened that I could see more clearly , without my mind wondering aimlessly.

    The "first " thing you "must" understand, is that God , in His Word, is a God of two of everything !

    There are "TWO " beasts !

    Context, context, context --- After what it says in Rev. 13:8 keep reading ! You will come to Rev. 13:11 - "And I beheld "another" beast " coming up out of the earth"

    Verse 12 - "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to whorship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed"

    Verse 14 - "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth"

    Verse 15 - "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed"

    What have we established here by reading this context ?

    #1 - There are "TWO" beasts
    #2 - All whorshiped the first beast whoes names are not in the book of lilfe of the Lamb
    #3 - The second beast deceives
    #4 - And now that there is a second beast - deceiving - having all the power of the first beast, he who will not listen to the second beast , this second time around, who worshiped the first beast, but now will not worship the first beast will be killed > This is in verse 15.

    This shows us, that some who first worshiped the first beast, now, are not going to worship the first beast, as the second beast is trying to tell them. These who have "changed" their ways, are now going to be killed. These who are "killed" are not going to have their names "blotted out" of the book of life.

    You also must remember, that this is in those last days of this earth , and the things that are happening are happening during the seventh seal period of time.

    "NOW", the only people dwelling on the earth, are those who worship the first beast, and are deceived by the second beast !

    But this does not occur, "UNTIL" those who have changed, are killed !

    Throughout the Word of God, we all have been given a chance to "change", and God is no respector of persons !

    Now, back to Rev. 17:8 -- By this time, those who are still alive, are those who worshipped the first beast, because they are still alive. I know and apologize for not making myself more clear in my morning post to you ! I told you that these in Rev. 17:8 do not worship the beast. I was wrong in telling you that ! I am sorry for not being clear on this ! I was in a rush to do my daily things, I didn't stop to think it all through before I said what I said.

    This still leaves us with the delema of those who "were not written in the book of life" from the foundations of the world in this verse of Rev. 17:8.

    Like I did say in my first post this morning, we need to understand as to "who" are these that dwell on the earth at this time. After Rev. 13:15 ( those killed who would not worship the beast ) there are only those who do whorship the beast. All those who whorship the beast are going to end up in the Lake of fire - the second death.

    So who are these that dwell on the earth and "wonder" ?

    "They" are the offspring of those who whorship the beast, and were not "born" until "after" Rev. 13:8. These are those which have no hope of ever having a change of heart, and they are those whoes names are "not written" in the book of life".

    You are wondering how I can say this. Just look at Rev. 17:15 - 17 - "peoples" - multitudes" - "nations" - "tongues" -- "And God put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree , and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled"

    Jesus Christ told certain one's in the Gospel, that they were of their father the devil. These offspring are of their fathers who worship the devil - beast - whore. Their hearts are "filled" to "agree".

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  8. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    All that Rev. 13:8 is telling us, is that these who worship the beast ( "all" in this context ) , their names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb. The biggest problem people have in reading the scriptures , is what is called a closed mind.


    Jim:

    Actually, you’re leaving out the part of 13:8 that shows that what is said in 13:8 applies to the ENTIRE last generation, which is this: “And ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb …”

    13:8 and 14:9-11 reduce “ALL” who dwell on the earth in the last generation to two groups: (1) ALL those who ARE written in the book of life of the Lamb, who DO NOT worship the beast and who therefore DO NOT burn, and (2) ALL those who ARE NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb, who DO worship the beast and who therefore DO burn.

    In The last generation, it all boils down to these three interdependent criteria: (1) whether or not one is written in the book of life of the Lamb, (2) whether or not one worships the beast and (3) whether or not one burns in the lake of fire. These three interdependent criteria CANNOT be separated from one another in Revelation’s analysis of the last generation. Wherever one stands in any one of these three criteria determines where one stands in the other two criteria as well.

    Nothing can be said to lessen the impact of the interrelationship of these three criteria on the last generation according to 13:8 and 14:9-11. ALL those of the last generation who ARE NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb DO worship the beast and DO burn, and ALL those of the last generation who ARE written in the book of life of the Lamb DO NOT worship the beast and DO NOT burn. Like it or not, 13:8 and 14:9-11 reduce the last generation to these simple terms.

    In order for your view of the book of life to be correct, it would be REQUIRED that John had made “the book of life” in 13:8 instead of “the book of life of the Lamb” the hinge point on which the consequence of either burning or not burning would swing.

    According to your view, whether or not a person of the last generation burns depends on whether or not he or she is written in the book of life. In contrast, according to 13:8 and 14:9-11, whether or not a person of the last generation burns depends on whether or not he or she is written in the book of life of the Lamb. Therefore, your view is incorrect. It’s as simple as that.

    What I’ve just stated here is not the product of a closed mind. It’s simply a scriptural fact. An unwillingness either to reject or to alter what is actually stated in the text of Revelation is not being close-minded; it’s being scriptural.

    In 13:8 and 14:9-11, whether or not a person in the last generation burns hinges on whether or not he or she is written in the book of life of the Lamb. In 20:15, whether or not a person in the last generation burns hinges on whether or not he or she is written in the book of life. What is stated in 13:8 and 14:9-11 and what is stated in 20:15 are both correct. They’re both correct because the book of life and the book of life of the Lamb are the same book.


    Hervey:

    The "first " thing you "must" understand, is that God , in His Word, is a God of two of everything !


    Jim:

    Paul doesn’t agree with you:
    Hervey:

    There are "TWO " beasts !


    Jim:

    There are also four beasts in heaven (4:6-8).


    Hervey:

    And now that there is a second beast - deceiving - having all the power of the first beast, he who will not listen to the second beast , this second time around, who worshiped the first beast, but now will not worship the first beast will be killed > This is in verse 15. This shows us, that SOME WHO FIRST WORSHIPED THE FIRST BEAST, NOW, ARE NOT GOING TO WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST, AS THE SECOND BEAST IS TRYING TO TELL THEM. THESE WHO HAVE "CHANGED" THEIR WAYS, ARE NOW GOING TO BE KILLED. THESE WHO ARE "KILLED" ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THEIR NAMES "BLOTTED OUT" OF THE BOOK OF LIFE. …

    "NOW", THE ONLY PEOPLE DWELLING ON THE EARTH, ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST, AND ARE DECEIVED BY THE SECOND BEAST ! BUT THIS DOES NOT OCCUR, "UNTIL" THOSE WHO HAVE CHANGED, ARE KILLED ! …

    Now, back to Rev. 17:8 -- By this time, those who are still alive, are those who worshipped the first beast, because they are still alive. … SO WHO ARE THESE THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH AND "WONDER" ? "THEY" ARE THE OFFSPRING OF THOSE WHO WHORSHIP THE BEAST, AND WERE NOT "BORN" UNTIL "AFTER" REV. 13:8. These are those which have no hope of ever having a change of heart, and they are those whoes names are "not written" in the book of life". You are wondering how I can say this. Just look at Rev. 17:15 - 17 - "peoples" - multitudes" - "nations" - "tongues" -- "And God put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree , and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled"


    Jim:

    You are incorrect. What you’ve just described and what the text of Revelation actually says are completely different.

    There is a beast that arises from the sea. This beast, described in 13:1-8, is called “the beast” throughout Revelation (11:7, 13:2-4, 13:14-15, 13:17-18, 14:9, 14:11, 15:2, 16:2, 16:10, 16:13, 17:7, 17:8, 17:11-13, 17:16-17, 19:19, 19:20, 20:4 and 20:10).

    There is a beast that arises from the earth. This beast, described in 13:11-15, is called “the false prophet” throughout Revelation (16:13, 19:20 and 20:10).

    Early on in his time of power, “the beast” will suffer a mortal wound but will revive (13:3, 13:14, 17:8 and 17:11) and “ascend out of the bottomless pit” (11:7 and 17:8) and “go into perdition” (17:8 and 17:11). This revival from the mortal wound is what will cause the world to “wonder” after him (13:3 and 17:8). He will be given 42 months of power (13:5), and he will make war with the saints and overcome them (11:7 and 13:7). Ten kings will ally themselves with “the beast” and attack the “great city” Babylon (17:12-13, 17:16-18). Then they and “the beast” will make war with the Lamb (16:12-16, 17:14 and 19:19-21), which they will of course lose at His coming, at which time “the beast” and “the false prophet” will be cast into the lake of fire (19:20).

    The power of “the beast” and “the false prophet” will not be generations in duration but 42 months (13:5). “The false prophet” will not succeed “the beast;” they will coexist, and “the false prophet” will promote “the beast” with “miracles” that he will perform “in the sight of the beast” (13:12-17 and 19:20) until they are both destroyed at the coming of the Lord (19:20). During this time, “the false prophet” will cause those who refuse to worship an image of “the beast” to be killed, and he will cause those who do not have a “mark” of the name of “the beast” to be unable to buy or sell (13:15-17, 14:9-11 and 20:4).

    The description of “the beast” in 13:1 and in 17:3 and 17:7-8 are the same: the beast has seven heads, ten horns and the names of blasphemy on him. It is the same beast, and the people who “wonder” after him (13:3 and 17:8) and “worship” him (13:4, 13:8 and 14:9-11) are the same people.

    Revelation 14:9-11 explicitly states, “… IF ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand … HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE … and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever … who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” That’s it. There are no second chances. Once a person worships “the beast” (13:3-4 and 13:8) who “goeth into perdition” (17:8 and 17:11), he or she is doomed. He or she will not change his or her mind. As Paul says regarding “the son of perdition” (2 Thessalonians 2:3), “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. AND FOR THIS CAUSE GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness [2:9-12].” Hence, NO SECOND CHANCES. The same people who “wonder” after “the beast” and “worship” him will be the same people who “are not written in the book of life of the Lamb” and who “were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (13:3-4, 13:8, 17:7-8).

    One of the reasons you may be assuming that the people described in Revelation 13:3-4 and 13:8 are not the same people described in 17:8 may be the assumption that Revelation is written in a straight-line chronological sequence, whereby chapters 6-19 describe one long chronological sequence of events, starting in chapter 6 and ending in chapter 19. Revelation is not written that way. If it were, then Babylon would fall at least twice (14:8 and 18:2), the kings of the earth would gather for war against the Lord at least twice (16:14 and 19:19) and the coming of the Lord would occur at least five times (6:12-17, 11:15-19, 14:14-16, 16:17-21 and 19:11-21).


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You said > "According to your view, whether or not a person of the last generation burns depends on whether or not he or she is written in the book of life. In contrast, according to 13:8 and 14:9-11, whether or not a person of the last generation burns depends on whether or not he or she is written in the book of life of the Lamb. Therefore, your view is incorrect. It’s as simple as that.

    What I’ve just stated here is not the product of a closed mind. It’s simply a scriptural fact. An unwillingness either to reject or to alter what is actually stated in the text of Revelation is not being close-minded; it’s being scriptural


    Yes it is, because I never told you that " a person burns as to whether or not a person is written in the book of life of the Lamb"

    So it is as simple as that !

    I did say that they needed their names in the book of life, or they will burn ! Thats evident, because of Rev. 20:15.

    Here is another example:

    I said, then - You said >

    Hervey:

    There are "TWO " beasts !



    Jim:

    There are also four beasts in heaven (4:6-8).


    I thought you would be able to follow me, when I explained "these " two beasts !

    These two are beasts of the devil ! They are metaphor's for the whore and the false prophets.

    Another one of the "mysteries" in the Word , is called a "double". If you can not see it, then you just can not see it. But I will attempt to explain it to you. In verse 8 it tells us, that they all had wings. We know that a calf does not fly ! And we know that a lion does not fly ! And we know that a man does not fly ! And we know that the only one with a "face" that does fly is an eagle. We know that they had "faces" of these four beasts, that resembled these four - lion - calf - man - eagle. Yet, they all had "six" wings. Four times six ( 4 x 6 ) equals (=) twenty four (24). And the "other" twenty four (24) are the 24 elders who also worhipped him who sat on the throne. This is the "double" - "who" worhsipped him who sat on the throne. You just didn't know where to look. I am not trying to put you down. I am trying to expound upon the Word , which is a spiritual book. We could and at some time should , discuss the reason for the "wings'. This is important for further understanding. But for now lets get back to what is important about our discussion at hand.

    Jim, you also said >


    Jim:

    Paul doesn’t agree with you:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; 5 ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, 6 ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


    Yes, in the unity of the Spirit there is "one" of each of these. But in the Word there are "two" Lords > Acts 2:34 - David speaking - "The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand" = Two (2).

    There are "three" mentioned baptisms - #1 - Being baptized unto Moses - I Corinth. 10:2 "cloud and sea" (dry - between the water) #2 - John's baptism which was with "water" and #3 - being baptized with the Holy Spirit and "fire" - Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 and Acts 2:3

    Three known baptism, but in the unity of the Spirit there is only "one' and that "one" is #3 - being baptized with the Holy Spirit and "fire".

    Three known - only two ingredients - #1 - Water and #2 - fire (the most three, the least two) <-- another one of the mysteries in the Word - I Corinth. 4:1

    I said - you said >

    Hervey:
    Now, back to Rev. 17:8 -- By this time, those who are still alive, are those who worshipped the first beast, because they are still alive. … SO WHO ARE THESE THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH AND "WONDER" ? "THEY" ARE THE OFFSPRING OF THOSE WHO WHORSHIP THE BEAST, AND WERE NOT "BORN" UNTIL "AFTER" REV. 13:8. These are those which have no hope of ever having a change of heart, and they are those whoes names are "not written" in the book of life". You are wondering how I can say this. Just look at Rev. 17:15 - 17 - "peoples" - multitudes" - "nations" - "tongues" -- "And God put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree , and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled"



    Jim:

    You are incorrect. What you’ve just described and what the text of Revelation actually says are completely different.


    Jim: There are "two" beasts of the devil. The one in Rev. 17:8 - 13 is the same one as in Rev. 13:1 - 7 ! The one in Rev. 17:8 - 13 is coming up out of the bottomless pit, because he was put there for a short time, then loosed - Rev. 20:3. But the "beast" in Rev. 13:11 & 12 is "another " beast = Two (2).

    The first came up out of the "sea" - #1

    The second came up out of the "earth" - #2

    Just like there are two Kingdoms - #1 Kingdom of heaven and #2 Kingdom of God

    Just like there are two books of life - #1 - the book of life and #2 - the book of life of the lamb.

    It is just that simple ;)

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  10. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    I thought you would be able to follow me, when I explained "THESE " TWO BEASTS ! These two are beasts of the devil ! THEY ARE metaphor's for THE WHORE and THE FALSE PROPHETS.


    Jim:

    It’s not likely I’ll be able to follow what you say if what you say bears no resemblance to the text of Revelation, which is the case here. “The whore” in Revelation is “that great city” called “Babylon” in Revelation (17:1-7, 17:7 and 17:15-18). “Ten kings” that ally themselves with “the beast” will attack this city (17:12-13 and 17:16-17) before they and the beast gather at Armageddon to make war against the Lord (16:12-16, 17:14 and 19:19-21).

    There are not multiple “false prophets” in Revelation; there is only one “false prophet” (13:11-17, 16:13-14, 19:20 and 20:10). He promotes “the beast,” performing “miracles … in the sight of the beast” (13:13-14).


    Hervey:

    Another one of the "mysteries" in the Word , is called a "double". If you can not see it, then you just can not see it. But I will attempt to explain it to you. In verse 8 it tells us, that they all had wings. We know that a calf does not fly ! And we know that a lion does not fly ! And we know that a man does not fly ! And we know that the only one with a "face" that does fly is an eagle. We know that they had "faces" of these four beasts, that resembled these four - lion - calf - man - eagle. Yet, they all had "six" wings. Four times six ( 4 x 6 ) equals (=) twenty four (24). And the "other" twenty four (24) are the 24 elders who also worhipped him who sat on the throne. This is the "double" - "who" worhsipped him who sat on the throne. You just didn't know where to look. I am not trying to put you down. I am trying to expound upon the Word , which is a spiritual book. We could and at some time should , discuss the reason for the "wings'. This is important for further understanding. But for now lets get back to what is important about our discussion at hand.


    Jim:

    You are paying more attention to your imagination than you are paying to the text. That is why your conclusions are exceeding the parameters of the text and thus violating the text.


    Hervey:

    There are "two" beasts of the devil. The one in Rev. 17:8 - 13 is the same one as in Rev. 13:1 - 7 ! The one in Rev. 17:8 - 13 is coming up out of the bottomless pit, because he was put there for a short time, then loosed - Rev. 20:3. But the "beast" in Rev. 13:11 & 12 is "another " beast = Two (2).


    Jim:

    The beast arises from the bottomless pit because he revives from a deadly wound, causing the world to wonder after him and to worship him. Verses 13:3-4 and 17:8 describe the same thing.

    In saying that 20:3 refers to the beast (the Antichrist), you are confusing the beast (the Antichrist) with the dragon (Satan).

    This is what the text of Revelation says:
    The dragon (Satan), the beast (the Antichrist) and the false prophet (the Antichrist’s assistant) are three distinct individuals in the text of Revelation. They may work in concert with one another, but they’re not the same person. It is the dragon, not the beast, who ascends from the bottomless pit in 20:3. This happens AFTER the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at the coming of the Lord. Later the dragon joins the beast and the false prophet in that lake of fire. The bottomless pit and the lake of fire are not the same thing in the text of Revelation. Whereas one can ascend from the bottomless pit, no one escapes the lake of fire.

    Yes, Revelation is very symbolic. However, that doesn’t mean that every word in Revelation is just a code for something else. It doesn’t mean that the grammar in Revelation should not be respected. When the text says that this is that, then it is not acceptable for us to conclude that this is really something else instead of what the text says it is. Unless we wish to violate the warning in 22:18-19, we have to respect the grammar of the text. The mere fact that Revelation is full of symbols does not give us a license to make those symbols whatever we wish. We have to accept the identity of each symbol as it is presented in the text. If we can’t tell what a symbol represents, then we must be honest and admit that we don’t know what it is. However, there are instances in Revelation where the text comes right out and states what a symbol represents. The identity of the dragon in Revelation is one of those instances. The dragon is Satan. Verse 13:4 says that the dragon gives power to the beast. This clear distinction between the dragon and the beast, which is also communicated in 16:13 and in 19:20 – 20:3, prohibits us from concluding that the dragon IS the beast in 20:3.


    Jim (in previous post):

    ACCORDING TO YOUR VIEW, whether or not a person of the last generation BURNS depends on whether or not he or she is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE. In contrast, ACCORDING TO 13:8 AND 14:9-11, whether or not a person of the last generation BURNS depends on whether or not he or she is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB. Therefore, YOUR VIEW IS INCORRECT. It’s as simple as that.


    Hervey (last post):

    Yes it is, because I NEVER TOLD YOU that " a person BURNS as to whether or not a person is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB"


    Jim (this post):

    I know you didn’t. THAT’S JUST MY POINT. If the text of Revelation agreed with your view, it would NEVER HAVE TOLD US that a person BURNS based on whether or not he or she is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB either. If the text of Revelation agreed with your view, it would have told us in 13:8 and 14:9-11 that a person BURNS based on whether or not he or she is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE. But it doesn’t say that. It says THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB.

    The heart of your view is the message that there is A SECOND CHANCE. According to your view, one can fail to be written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB and consequently fail to participate in THE FIRST RESURRECTION yet still NOT burn. YOUR MESSAGE that there is A SECOND CHANCE is NOT what THE TEXT OF REVELATION teaches. According to the text of Revelation, there is NO SECOND CHANCE.

    Our dislike of what the text of Revelation says is not a license to change what it says. Verses 22:18-19 tell us that we don’t have that license.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  11. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Revelation is a HARSH book. It cuts right to the point, whether we like it or not. Those who OVERCOME inherit ALL THINGS. Those who don’t overcome burn. This message is the heart of Revelation in a nutshell, and it’s found in 22:7-8. Notice who is at the top of the list of those who burn in 22:8: it’s the “fearful” and the “unbelieving.” The other people that we associate with more serious sins are mentioned later in that verse. According to 22:7-8, one doesn’t have to be a criminal in order to burn; all one has to do is NOT be an OVERCOMER. The FEARFUL and UNBELIEVING are NOT OVERCOMERS. According to 22:7-8, they burn along with the murderers. As I said, it’s a harsh book.

    I heard one supposed expert regarding Revelation say in an A&E presentation regarding this subject that some of the people of the early church thought that Revelation should not be read publicly because it was such a harsh book. It just didn’t seem to be consistent with the love of God. Some people to this very day don’t think that Revelation should be in the Bible. It’s a harsh book. However, the mere fact that we don’t like Revelation or that we think it should be more in agreement with the love of God does not give us the right to interpretively rewrite it to suit our preferences. It says what it says, and it says it very clearly … enough so that it’s upsetting to many of us. If we don’t like what Revelation says, then perhaps we should avoid it. However, changing what it says is not an acceptable option.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Here is one of the reasons we are having such a hard time communicating with one another >

    You said from my statment >Hervey (last post):

    Yes it is, because I NEVER TOLD YOU that " a person BURNS as to whether or not a person is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB"



    Jim (this post):

    I know you didn’t. THAT’S JUST MY POINT. If the text of Revelation agreed with your view, it would NEVER HAVE TOLD US that a person BURNS based on whether or not he or she is written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB


    Jim: You know you didn't ?? Then why make a statement that implies that I did make such a statement ?

    Secondly - The text does not tell us any such thing !

    Rev. 20:15 is clear - if your name is not in the book of life you burn in the second death. Jim, what is so hard to understand about that ?

    Rev 13:8 does not even talk about the Lake of fire ! It only tells us that those who worship the beast are not written in the book of life of the Lamb. Why do you add and subtract from what these verses actually say ?

    What profit is it to make confusing comments that do not pertain to the subject at hand within a certain verse or verses of scripture ?

    Here is something else you said that is confusing and does not line up with what it says in the scriptures ! >

    The dragon (Satan), the beast (the Antichrist) and the false prophet (the Antichrist’s assistant) are three distinct individuals in the text of Revelation. They may work in concert with one another, but they’re not the same person. It is the dragon, not the beast, who ascends from the bottomless pit in 20:3. This happens AFTER the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at the coming of the Lord. Later the dragon joins the beast and the false prophet in that lake of fire. The bottomless pit and the lake of fire are not the same thing in the text of Revelation. Whereas one can ascend from the bottomless pit, no one escapes the lake of fire.

    Three persons ?? Where do you get such an idea ? ?

    If you read Rev. 17:8 - 13 you will see "two" beasts - one giving power to the other, "just" like the record in Rev. 13 which says the exact same thing. These two have one mind. The beast that went into the bottomless pit was the first beast, not the second one. The beast of Rev. 20:2 is called the "dragon", but the other beast of Rev 13:11 says "as a dragon". And in Rev. 13:2 is "that" dragon the devil , who gives this beast his power. That means that the two are now one. The beast and the dragon are one. The dragon gave him his seat and great authority. Rev. 13:4 shows us that the two were now one in that they worshipped both as one. When the "dragon" was put into the bottomless pit both went into the bottomless pit. Rev. 17:8 tells us that the "beast" ascends out of the bottomless pit, which is where God put him with the dragon as "one". Rev. 20 tells us that God put him there and that he loosened him after a season = a thousand years. We see this "loosening" in Rev. 17:8. The bottomless pit "is" the Lake of fire ! You claim that it is not, which does not line up with scripture > Rev. 9:2 - Rev. 14:11. There is a "key" to the bottomless pit ( Lake of Fire ) and he was loosened for a period of time (thousand years). He did not ascend up on his own ! The "second " time he is put into the bottomless pit (which is also the Lake of Fire) , he will never come up out of the pit again !

    Jim, you said >
    Our dislike of what the text of Revelation says is not a license to change what it says. Verses 22:18-19 tell us that we don’t have that license.

    I know that you are trying to make a point here, but it seems to me that your own license is up for renewal :)

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  13. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Rev 13:8 does not even talk about the Lake of fire ! It only tells us that those who worship the beast are not written in the book of life of the Lamb. Why do you add and subtract from what these verses actually say ?


    Jim:

    Revelation 14:9-11 says, “If any man worship the beast … he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone.”

    Question: Is there anyone who worships the beast who will not later burn for it?

    Revelation 13:8 says, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb …”

    Question: Is there anyone in this verse who will not worship the beast and later burn for it?


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  14. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You wrote and asked >Jim:

    Revelation 14:9-11 says, “If any man worship the beast … he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone.”

    Question: Is there anyone who worships the beast who will not later burn for it?

    Jim: This is too broad of a question, and is not specific enough ! The reason being, is because verse 9 in chapter 14 gives us more information than your question is asking. This verse also tells us of those who have received the mark of the beast in his hand and forehead. "Only" those who would not "change' receive the mark of the beast. We find this in Rev. 13:15 & 16. In verse 15 we see those who would "not" worship the beast according to the false prophet who is the "another beast". These who worshipped the first beast in Rev. 13:8 now have "changed" their minds and will not listen to the false prophet , which is the second beast. They then are killed. Those who do worship the first beast , because of the influence of the false prophet receive the mark of the beast in their right hand and forehead.

    Revelation 13:8 says, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb …”

    Question: Is there anyone in this verse who will not worship the beast and later burn for it?


    Jim: Yes- but you can not find it in this verse, you must keep reading the context, which will reveal the truth when you get to verse 15 ! ! Those who 'changed' and were killed ! > Verse 15 ! Context !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  15. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    I think I understand you now.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  16. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Hello,


    It’s been suggested in this thread that the bottomless pit is the lake of fire in Revelation. However, if one conducts a word search for the word “hell” (click here), one finds that the pit is hell, not the lake of fire. It’s where the dead who do not belong to the Lord are located as they await judgment. It’s also where fallen angels awaiting judgment are located.

    The word “key(s)” is used several times in Revelation. In 1:18, Christ says that He has the keys of death and hell. In 3:7, Christ says that He has the key of David. In 9:1-11, and angel uses a key of the bottomless pit (hell) to let something out of the pit, releasing it upon the world. In 20:1-3, an angel uses a key of the bottomless pit (hell) to put something into the pit, keeping it away from the world.

    In 20:12-14, at the judgment, death and hell (the pit) are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Thus, for those who do not belong to the Lord, the bottomless pit (hell) appears to be the first death whereas the lake of fire is the second death.

    In 13:3-4, 13:8 and 17:8, the beast suffers a mortal wound (he descends into the pit, or hell), then he ascends out of the pit (apparently, he revives from the mortal wound), which causes all in the world who are not written in the book of life of the Lamb/ the book of life to wonder after him and to worship him.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    May I make a suggestion, that when the subject changes completely . Then it might be time to make a new topic from a new thread title.

    The Hebrew word "sheol" is translated in the OT - "Grave" - "hell" - "pit".

    The Greek word is "hades", and is translated - "Grave" - "hell" .

    The Greek word for the word "pit" is - "phrear", and is translated - "pit" and "well" < as a water well , hole in the ground, like a dungon.

    "Death" and "hell" are cast into the Lake of fire , which is called the second "death ".

    The bottomless pit is the Lake of fire. Literal death and hell are cast into the figuravtive death and hell, which is called the Lake of fire, which "is" the - "second death "

    The bottomless pit being the Lake of fire, is an eternal pit - dungon. But this eternal pit - dungon, only becomes "eternal" -- "after" the second time that the devil spirits and all those who make up the first beast are cast into it for a second time.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  18. Skipper55

    Skipper55 New Member

    2
    +0
    The
     
  19. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    May I make a suggestion, that when the subject changes completely . Then it might be time to make a new topic from a new thread title.


    Jim:

    I don’t think it’s changed completely. We’re still discussing things related to the dragon, the beast and the false prophet.


    Hervey:

    The bottomless pit is the Lake of fire. Literal death and hell are cast into the figuravtive death and hell, which is called the Lake of fire, which "is" the - "second death " The bottomless pit being the Lake of fire, is an eternal pit - dungon.


    Jim:

    An online Strong’s Concordance (click here) provides the following definitions:

    hell: Old Testament; 7585 ( click here), sheowl; defined: 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit; rendered: grave, hell, pit

    hell: New Testament; 86 (click here), hades; defined: 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions 2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead 3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell; In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place.; rendered: hell, grave

    pit: Old Testament; 953 (click here), bowr; defined: 1) pit, well, cistern; rendered: pit, cistern, dungeon, well, fountain

    pit: New Testament; 5421 (click here), phrear; defined: 1) a well 2) the pit of the abyss (because the nether world is thought to increase in size the further it extends from the surface of the earth and so resemble a cistern, the orifice of which is narrow); rendered: pit, well

    bottomless/ bottomless pit/ deep: New Testament; 12 (click here), abussos; defined: 1) bottomless 2) unbounded 3) the abyss 3a) the pit 3b) the immeasurable depth 3c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons; rendered: bottomless, bottomless pit, deep
    According to Strong’s Concordance, the Old Testament “pit” (953) and the New Testament “pit” (5421) share the same definitions and renderings. Likewise, the Old Testament “hell” (7585) and the New Testament “hell” (86) share the same definitions and renderings. One of the definitions and renderings of the Old Testament word (7585) for “hell” is “pit.” The Old Testament “hell” (7585), the New Testament “hell” (86) and the New Testament “pit” (5421) are all defined as the underworld, or the netherworld. Thus, they’re all referring to the same thing.

    In Ezekiel 31:16, to descend into “hell” (7585) is to descend into “the pit” (953). In Acts 2:25-32, “hell” (86) is where Christ was before He rose from the dead. In Romans 10:6-9, “the deep” (12) is where Christ went when He was put to death, from which He arose. In Revelation 11:7 and 17:8, the “bottomless pit” (12) is where the beast will go when he receives a mortal wound, from which he will arise. The same word (12) is used in Romans 10:6-9 and Revelation 11:7 and 17:8. I see no evidence in these passages or in Strong’s definitions and renderings of these words that the pit is a figurative hell into which a literal hell is cast. Everything in these passages and in Strong’s stated definitions is consistent with hell and the pit being the same place. This is consistent with Christ having the key of hell (Revelation 1:18) and two angels using that key to open (9:1-2) and close (20:1-3) the pit, which is hell.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  20. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    The problem is, is that it depends on what word translated from this Hebrew word and Greek word, do you want to put the emphasis !

    You seem to have made a choice on which word you wish to make an emphasis.

    Your claim of emphasis does not change the wording in the Word of God.

    #1 - there is no smoke coming up from the "grave" , and the word "hell" is translated back and forth with the word "grave.

    #2 - The bottomless "pit" in the book of Rev. is the only word which has smoke coming up from it. > Rev. 9:2 & Rev. 14:11 - There is a smoke ascending up from the "pit", as from a great furnace.

    The bottomless "pit" is the "grave - hell", the bottomless "pit" is the place where the Lake of fire is ! The "literal" death and "hell - grave" are cast into the Lake of fire , which is the bottomless pit, which is the figurative "hell-grave" !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
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