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New Heaven and New Earth

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hervey, Jan 15, 2002.

  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    There will be a #1 - New Heaven and #2 - a New Earth. The New Jerusalem comes down out of -- Heaven ( which Heaven ? -- The old heaven has passed away ! --- She comes down from the New Heaven - Rev. 21:1 & 2) - from God - having the glory of God, and her - Rev. 21:10 & 11. She - the New Jerusalem is the "glory of God", and she is the wife of the Lamb.


    Jim:

    Yes, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Yes, the New Jerusalem will descend from God out of the new heaven to the new earth. Yes, this city, New Jerusalem, is the Lamb’s wife. John was standing with the angel on a mountain of the new earth watching the Lamb’s wife, the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descend from the new heaven to the new earth (21:10). That is what Revelation 21 says. I don’t see the point you’re trying to make here.


    Hervey:

    Then why would the Word of God use the words "enter into it" in two verses pertaining to two different understandings of the group whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" ? Once in verse 24 and again in verse 27.



    Jim:

    What do you mean by “two different understandings?” The one understanding that I gather from verses 21:24 and 21:27 is that the kings of the earth in verse 21:24 are written in the Lamb’s book of life as stated in verse 21:27.


    Hervey:

    The new city called the New Jerusalem is "not" the New Heaven. So where is the New Heaven ? ----- The answer is --- "Outside" of the New Earth, is the New Heaven


    Jim:

    In my opinion, the assumption that the New Jerusalem is the new earth has no scriptural basis. Also, in my opinion, the statement that the new heaven is “outside” the New Jerusalem is not consistent with verse 22:15, which states that those who participate in the second death are “without” the city.


    Hervey:

    Christians were designed by God to be in 'heaven', and they also can come to the earth, as they will with Christ upon this earth in the last days.


    Jim:

    John 14:3 says, “… I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, “… and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Revelation 3:12 says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out …” Revelation 21:22 says, “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” Revelation 22:3 says, “… the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.” In my opinion, these passages indicate that Christians are not designed to be in heaven; they are designed to be with Christ wherever He may be. According to Revelation 21-22, Christ will be in the New Jerusalem with His servants. In contrast, verse 22:15 states that those who will participate in the second death will be “without” the city. It appears to me from Revelation 21:2-3, 21:10 and 22:3 that God’s tabernacle and throne will no longer be in heaven; they will be in the New Jerusalem, which will be on the new earth.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
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  2. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    There is no mention anywhere in the book of Revelation , that the high mountain that John was taken up upon was the New Earth !

    The reason that the angel took him up upon a great high mountain, was because he was to get the impression that there was nothing else around him . And him looking up, he saw the New Earth descend down out of the New Heaven, which is called the holy city, the New Jerusalem.

    This New Earth, called the New Jerusalem , had no need for a "sun" or a "moon" - Rev. 21:23 - "for God did lighten it, for the Lamb was the light thereof". This verse proves that the New Jerusalem "was" the New Earth.


    Jim - I didn't mean to throw you with my poor wording, when I said "two different understandings". Rev. 21:24 & 27 are synomous , in that, those whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" are made kings.


    It is worth re-typing this verse in John 14:3 that you appropriately brought to the conversation.

    John 14:3 - "And I go and prepare a place (what place ?) for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself : that where I am, there ye may be also"

    That will happen, when Christ comes to gather the Church at the "gathering" - I Thess. 4:13 - 17

    Verse 17 - "to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

    Jesus Christ has a responsibility to his Father, and this responsibility is to deliver up "the kingdom" (Kingdom of this world) to God, even the Father - I Corinthians 15:24 .

    God has put all things pertaining to this earth under the feet of his Son Jesus Christ. > I Corinth. 15:27

    Then the Son will , after everything is subdued unto him, will hand over the kingdom of this world to God, his Father. When the kingdom of this word is complete, in that he shall have put down all rule > I Corinth. 15:24, and it is handed over to his Father who is God, then God will be all in all > I Corinth. 15:27 & 28.

    God is "King of kings", which means that there are other "kingdoms". God made his sons, "kings" and he made his only begotten Son to reign on the throne of his father David. There is no need to be a "king" unless one is a "king" of a kingdom !

    Jesus Christ is also going to be a king of a kingdom, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ had promised through prophesy, that his Son would receive from his Father the throne of his father David (That is right folks, Jesus Christ had "two" fathers - literal - God and Figuratively - David) - Luke 1:32 --- And then read verse 33 - "And he shall "reign" (as king) over the house of Jacob "for ever " ! ( How long is forever ? )

    God changed Jacob's name to Israel.

    The two great kingdoms, were Judah and Israel. King David was King over Judah first, for seven years and six months, then he was King over both Judah and Israel for thirty three years. Combined , he reigned for forty years as a King.

    The "house of Jacob" is Israel . Jacob's name being changed to "Israel".

    The throne of his father David , was the throne of Judah and the throne of Israel.

    King David reigned over Judah, before he reigned over Israel. God had promised, that he would raise up Christ to sit on the throne of David -- but which throne was God talking about?

    II Samuel 5:5 - "In Hebron he (David) reigned over Judah seven years and six months : and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

    The "house of Jacob" will Jesus Christ reign - "over" - forever.

    Jacob = Israel, is the throne of David.

    The house of Jacob (Israel) is "not" the holy city called the New Jerusalem !

    The names of the twelve gates of the holy City - the New Jerusalem , come from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel ( Jacob) . Yet, Jerusalem is "of" Judah, "not" Israel.

    Jesus was born in Bethlehem , which is of Judea - Judah > Matthew 2:5 ( which comes from the word "Judah") which is about six miles south of Jerusalem. Bethlehem is called the city of David , because David was born there also.

    King Heroid thought that Jesus Christ was going to become the King of Judah - Judea, of which King Heriod was presently the King. So he sought to kill the child , that the wise men spoke of. King Heriod could not have been more wrong about Jesus Christ becoming the possible next King of Judah - Judea.

    Those whoes names are in the "Lamb's book of life" can "enter into" the New Jerusalem through the gates named after the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob).

    Israel (Jacob) the house thereof, is on the "outside" of the holy "city" - called - The New Jerusalem. We who are a part of the house of Jacob (Israel) can "enter into" the holy "city" - the New Jerusalem - the New Earth.

    Heaven is "above", and the Earth is below !

    Heaven is where the King of Israel reigns, and Earth is where the King of Judah reigns. The King of Judah reigns as King of Kings.

    Jerusalem in the Word (OT) is "of" Judah. The 'holy city' - the New Jerusalem is "of" Judah

    Everything in the Word of God indicates that anyone or anything that comes from heaven "always" comes "down" from heaven.

    Thus - The New Heaven is above , and The New Earth is below
    Thus - The Kingdom of Israel is above , and the Kingdom of Judah is below.

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  3. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey (in last post to me):

    There is no mention anywhere in the book of Revelation , that the high mountain that John was taken up upon was the New Earth ! The reason that the angel took him up upon a great high mountain, was because he was to get the impression that there was nothing else around him . And him looking up, he saw the New Earth descend down out of the New Heaven, which is called the holy city, the New Jerusalem.


    Hervey (in previous post to me):

    There will be a #1 - New Heaven and #2 - a New Earth. The New Jerusalem comes down out of -- Heaven ( which Heaven ? -- The old heaven has passed away ! --- She comes down from the New Heaven - Rev. 21:1 & 2) - from God - having the glory of God, and her - Rev. 21:10 & 11. She - the New Jerusalem is the "glory of God", and she is the wife of the Lamb.


    Jim (this post):

    You understand that the "heaven" out of which John sees "that great city" descending in 21:10 is a new heaven for the same reason that I understand that the "mountain" from which John witnesses that descent is a new mountain on a new earth. John does not explicitly say in 21:10 that the “mountain” from which he witnesses the descent of "that great city" is part of a new earth, just as he does not explicitly say that the “heaven” out of which he sees it descending is a new heaven. However, we understand that it’s a new “mountain” and a new “heaven” because what is said in verse 21:10 follows what is said in verse 21:1, which is that John saw a new heaven and a new earth. In my opinion, to conclude that either the “mountain” or the “heaven” in verse 21:10 is part of the old heaven and earth instead of the new heaven and earth is to take verse 21:10 out of context with its surrounding verses.


    Hervey:

    This New Earth, called the New Jerusalem , had no need for a "sun" or a "moon" - Rev. 21:23 - "for God did lighten it, for the Lamb was the light thereof". This verse proves that the New Jerusalem "was" the New Earth.


    Jim:

    If the sun and moon did not shine on the new earth, then they would not shine on whatever would be located on the new earth, such as the new city. Therefore, I don’t understand your point here.


    Hervey (in a previous post to me):

    Then why would the Word of God use the words "enter into it" in two verses pertaining to two different understandings of the group whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" ? Once in verse 24 and again in verse 27.



    Jim (in my last post to you in response to this):

    What do you mean by “two different understandings?” The one understanding that I gather from verses 21:24 and 21:27 is that the kings of the earth in verse 21:24 are written in the Lamb’s book of life as stated in verse 21:27.


    Hervey (in your last post to me):

    Jim - I didn't mean to throw you with my poor wording, when I said "two different understandings". Rev. 21:24 & 27 are synomous , in that, those whoes names are written in the "Lamb's book of life" are made kings.


    Jim:

    Thank you. That answers my question.


    Hervey:

    It is worth re-typing this verse in John 14:3 that you appropriately brought to the conversation. John 14:3 - "And I go and prepare a place (what place ?) for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself : that where I am, there ye may be also" That will happen, when Christ comes to gather the Church at the "gathering" - I Thess. 4:13 – 17. Verse 17 - "to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Jesus Christ has a responsibility to his Father, and this responsibility is to deliver up "the kingdom" (Kingdom of this world) to God, even the Father - I Corinthians 15:24. God has put all things pertaining to this earth under the feet of his Son Jesus Christ. > I Corinth. 15:27. Then the Son will , after everything is subdued unto him, will hand over the kingdom of this world to God, his Father. When the kingdom of this word is complete, and is handed over to his Father who is God, then God will be all in all > I Corinth. 15:27 & 28. God is "King of kings", which means that there are other "kingdoms". God made his sons, "kings". There is no need to be a "king" unless one is a "king" of a kingdom ! Jesus Christ is also going to be a king of a kingdom, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ had promised through prophesy, that his Son would receive from his Father the throne of his father David - Luke 1:32 --- And then read verse 33 - "And he shall "reign" (as king) over the house of Jacob "for ever " ! (How long is forever ? ) God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The two great kingdoms, were Judah and Israel. King David was King over Judah first, for seven years and six months, then he was King over both Judah and Israel for thirty three years. Combined , he reigned for forty years as a King. The "house of Jacob" is Israel . Jacob's name being changed to "Israel". The throne of his father David , was the throne of Judah and the throne of Israel. King David reigned over Juda, before he reigned over Israel. God had promised, that he would raise up Christ to sit on the throne of David -- but which throne was God talking about? I Kings 12:1 - 20 - Jeroboam was made King over Israel after King Saul. And David was King over the tribe of Judah , after Rehoboam was King over Judah, because Israel would not follow the house of David, but Judah did. II Samuel 5:5 - "In Hebron he (David) reigned over Judah seven years and six months : and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah. The "house of Jacob" will Jesus Christ reign - "over" - forever. Jacob = Israel, is the throne of David. The house of Jacob (Israel) is "not" the holy city called the New Jerusalem ! The names of the twelve gates of the holy City - the New Jerusalem , come from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel ( Jacob). Those whoes names are in the "Lamb's book of life" can "enter into" the New Jerusalem through the gates named after the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob). Israel (Jacob) the house thereof, is on the "outside" of the holy "city" - called - The New Jerusalem. We who are a part of the house of Jacob (Israel) can "enter into" the holy "city" - the New Jerusalem - the New Earth. Heaven is "above", and the Earth is below ! Everything in the Word of God indicates that anyone or anything that comes from heaven "always" comes "down" from heaven.


    Jim:

    I’m unable to follow the logic of what you’ve said here.

    My purpose in quoting John 14:3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 was to make the point that, according to scripture, from the moment that the Rapture occurs onward, Christians will be with Christ. If He were to be in heaven, then that’s where they would be. If He were to be on earth, then that’s where they would be. Revelation 21:22 and 22:3 state that Christ will be in the New Jerusalem. Therefore, according to scripture, Christians will be in the New Jerusalem. That’s where Christ will be, and that’s where Christians will be. As far as I can tell, scripture says nothing about Christ and His saints leaving the New Jerusalem. Scripture seems (to me) to put Christ and His saints in the New Jerusalem and to leave them there.

    Revelation 3:12-13, 21:22 and 22:3-5 say this:

    My conclusion from these passages is that Christians will be in the New Jerusalem with Christ, and they will not leave. They will reign forever with Christ in the New Jerusalem.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  4. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    From what I can see, you are repeating yourself, while I am trying to enhance the knowledge of the subject at hand.

    I agree - we as Christians go where Christ goes.

    Where is "Christ's" Kingdom ? In the New Heaven or the New Earth ?

    My explanation puts his Kingdom in the New Heaven , and Not in the New Earth. The promise of his Father "has" to come to pass as it was promised by God !

    Jim said:

    You understand that the "heaven" out of which John sees "that great city" descending in 21:10 is a new heaven for the same reason that I understand that the "mountain" from which John witnesses that descent is a new mountain on a new earth. John does not explicitly say in 21:10 that the “mountain” from which he witnesses the descent of "that great city" is part of a new earth, just as he does not explicitly say that the “heaven” out of which he sees it descending is a new heaven. However, we understand that it’s a new “mountain” and a new “heaven” because what is said in verse 21:10 follows what is said in verse 21:1, which is that John saw a new heaven and a new earth. In my opinion, to conclude that either the “mountain” or the “heaven” in verse 21:10 is part of the old heaven and earth instead of the new heaven and earth is to take verse 21:10 out of context with its surrounding verses.


    Jim: The key word here is "saw". He "saw" a new heaven and a new earth.

    Rev.21:1 - "the first heaven and first earth were passed away" - What did he 'see' - "saw" ? Right there in the verse - "I "saw" a new heaven and a new earth"

    Verse 2 - "And I John "SAW" the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven" --- What did he 'see' - "SAW" ?

    Jim, we know that John was standing upon a great high mountain, and he was looking up -- what did he see ? I will give you a hint --- he did not see the great high mountain he was standing upon, because he was looking up. If you still don't see what John "SAW" , then read verses one and two - Rev. 21:1 & 2

    The old heaven and old earth had passed away.

    He "SAW" the New Earth which is the new Jerusalem, the holy city coming down from out of of the New Heaven. << That is what he "SAW" !


    Hervey:

    This New Earth, called the New Jerusalem , had no need for a "sun" or a "moon" - Rev. 21:23 - "for God did lighten it, for the Lamb was the light thereof". This verse proves that the New Jerusalem "was" the New Earth.


    Jim:

    If the sun and moon did not shine on the new earth, then they would not shine on whatever would be located on the new earth, such as the new city. Therefore, I don’t understand your point here.


    Jim: The earth that we are on now, has a sun and a moon, but the New Earth will no longer need a sun or a moon ! So - the New Jerusalem is the New Earth ! ! Not a part of a new earth !

    Christ does not "reign" in the New Earth -- The promise of the Father is that he will reign over the house of Jacob = Israel forever.

    The New Jerusalem is "not" the house of Jacob = Israel. The New Heaven is !

    The New Jerusalem is of Judah
    The New Heaven is of Israel = Jacob

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  5. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    From what I can see, you are repeating yourself, while I am trying to enhance the knowledge of the subject at hand.


    Jim:

    Yes, I keep repeating what the Bible says so that we don’t get so engrossed in our speculations that we lose touch with what scripture actually says. There’s virtually no limit to where our speculations can lead us if we either ignore what the Bible says or give greater weight to our speculations than we do to the logical requirements of the scriptural text.

    I don’t have a problem with scripture being interpreted figuratively instead of literally. For instance, I myself think that what John saw in Revelation 21-22 is figurative rather than literal. However, in my opinion, whether we interpret scripture figuratively or literally, we must adhere to the logic that is established by the text itself. If the text paints a picture of a new heaven, a new earth and a new city, unless there is something stated in the text to serve as a basis for concluding that the new city is the new earth, then, in my opinion, such a conclusion constitutes a deviation from scripture.


    Hervey:

    Where is "Christ's" Kingdom ? In the New Heaven or the New Earth ? My explanation puts his Kingdom in the New Heaven , and Not in the New Earth. The promise of his Father "has" to come to pass as it was promised by God !


    Jim:

    As far as I know, Christ’s kingdom is wherever Christ is. It’s not limited to an extraneous place, such as heaven. What do you mean in saying that the promise of His Father has to come to pass?


    Hervey:

    The key word here is "saw". He "saw" a new heaven and a new earth. … we know that John was standing upon a great high mountain, and he was looking up … he did not see the great high mountain he was standing upon … The old heaven and old earth had passed away. … He "SAW" the New Earth which is the new Jerusalem, the holy city coming down from out of of the New Heaven.


    Jim:

    Two things:

    1. John does not say that he saw the new earth descending; he says that he saw “the holy city” (21:2), “that great city” (21:10), descending. John describes a new heaven, a new earth and a new city. That is what he says. Your insistence that the new city is the new earth doesn’t change what John says. The interpretation you’re proposing here does not exist because of what John says but in spite of what he says. In my opinion, there is no scriptural basis for what you’re insisting here.

    2. In my opinion, John’s post-new-creation vision in Revelation 21-22 is not limited to what he “saw.” John and the angel were PARTICIPANTS in the post-new-creation vision. They STOOD on a new mountain of a new earth and WATCHED a new city descend out of a new heaven (21:10). The angel then MEASURED this new city (21:15). The context of this participatory vision is that “the first heaven and the first earth were passed away” (21:1). In my opinion, everything that John describes in this post-new-creation vision is to be understood in that context. John and angel were not on the outside of this post-new-creation vision looking in; they were actually IN the post-new-creation vision, enough so that they could STAND on a new mountain of a new earth, WATCH a new city descend out of a new heaven to the new earth on which they STOOD and MEASURE that new city.


    Hervey:

    Jim: The earth that we are on now, has a sun and a moon, but the New Earth will no longer need a sun or a moon ! So - the New Jerusalem is the New Earth ! ! Not a part of a new earth !


    Jim:

    In my opinion, you still haven’t presented a reason why the new city must BE the new earth as opposed to being ON the new earth. You keep repeating this assumption, but you don’t offer a basis (either logical or scriptural) for it. Simply repeating this interpretive assumption that the new city IS the new earth isn’t going to persuade anyone. You need to show a logical and scriptural basis for it.


    Hervey:

    Christ does not "reign" in the New Earth …


    Jim:

    I agree. Christ does not “reign” in the new earth; He “reigns” in the new city (22:5), which is on the new earth.

    Prior to the first heaven and earth passing away, John says that Christ and His saints will “reign” for a thousand years (20:4). John says in verse 20:6 that Christ’s saints will be “priests.”

    Later, John uses the term “kings” in reference to those who names are written in “the Lamb’s book of life” (21:24-27). He says that they “shall reign for ever and ever” (22:5) in service to Christ (22:3) in the new city.

    In Revelation 5:10, the four beasts and twenty-four elders sing a song that says this: “… And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign ON THE EARTH

    I think that these passages are pretty clear in communicating that Christ reigns on the earth with His saints both before and after the first heaven and earth pass away.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  6. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    Let us try and clear up our conversation about the New Heaven and New Earth and what John "saw", first.

    To repeat myself here ---- Rev 21:1 - "I saw" a new heaven and a new earth.

    Verse 2 - "I saw" the holy city, new Jerusalem -- 'come down from heaven'.

    There is "No" other references to the New Earth, other than these two verses !

    Jim said: > "They STOOD on a new mountain of a new earth and WATCHED a new city descend out of a new heaven (21:10).

    It "does not" say anywhere, that the holy city, the new Jerusalem came down upon the new earth. Nor does it say anywhere that the great high mountain , was a "new" mountain ! ! Yet ! That is what you are saying, happened ! You are the one speculating here, not me. John "never" said that he "saw" the new Jerusalem come down out from heaven and land upon the new earth !

    He "never" - "saw" that happen ! Yet , you continue to claim that it did happen. This is called - "adding" to scripture.

    Was not the holy city, more than a holy city ? Was it not the New Jerusalem ? Was it not the bride of the Lamb, the Lamb's wife ? Was it not a building ?

    Was it not also the "New Earth", that John "saw" in verse one ?


    Hervey said:

    Where is "Christ's" Kingdom ? In the New Heaven or the New Earth ? My explanation puts his Kingdom in the New Heaven , and Not in the New Earth. The promise of his Father "has" to come to pass as it was promised by God !


    Jim asked:

    As far as I know, Christ’s kingdom is wherever Christ is. It’s not limited to an extraneous place, such as heaven. What do you mean in saying that the promise of His Father has to come to pass?

    Jim, God who is the Father of our Lord Jesus the Christ made a promise. I pointed out that this promise was made, and we can read about it in Acts 2:29 & 30 - "that God would raise up Christ to sit upon his throne"

    I then gave a full explanation about David, and how he was King of "two" thrones. One was the King of Judah, and the other was the King of Israel. I also gave a full explanation, that you can re-read from "that" post.

    Jim, ask you self this question. The information that Rev. 5:10 gives us about the "earth". Is it this present earth that this verse is speaking about, or the New Earth of the future ? By the way, -- The answer is in the context of chapter 5. (sea) <-- one word gives the answer , as to which earth this chapter is talking about. Rev. 21:1 - "no more sea"

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  7. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Your approach to interpreting the Bible seems to be more focused on the reasoning that leads to your conclusions, whereas my approach to interpreting the Bible seems to be more focused on what is actually stated in the Biblical text. If the Bible means what it literally says, then my conclusions are more likely to be correct; if the Bible does not mean what it literally says, then your conclusions are more likely to be correct. These two completely different approaches to Biblical interpretation can never be reconciled to one another, and debating from these two opposite approaches can never lead to a resolution, because such a debate does not focus on the same Bible. What I mean by this is that whereas I’m arguing the merits of a Bible that means what it says, you’re arguing the merits of a Bible that means what it means. If we’re not debating the same book, which seems to be the case with us, then we can never resolve anything. We can’t even seem to agree on definitions. For example, you contend that my conclusion that John’s reference to a new heaven, a new earth and a new city draws a distinction between the new earth and the new city is speculative because John doesn’t explicitly state that he saw the new city touch down on the new earth; I contend that your conclusion that the new city is the new earth despite John’s description of a new heaven, a new earth and a new city is speculative. Thus, you and I have two completely different ideas of what constitutes speculation. So it appears that we’re never going to agree on anything. I can show you something that the Bible literally says, and it doesn’t seem to matter to you; you can show me something that you believe the Bible means, and it doesn’t seem to matter to me. One could say that we’re hopelessly polarized. My guess is that the most we could achieve from a Biblical debate would be frustration over our differences. Nevertheless I will respond to your comments in your last post to me. For what it’s worth to you, which I suspect won’t be very much, I’ll present my response from what I think is a literal perspective.


    Hervey:

    It does not say anywhere that the holy city, the new Jerusalem, came down upon the new earth. Nor does it say anywhere that the great high mountain was a "new" mountain! Yet that is what you are saying happened! You are the one speculating here, not me. John never said that he "saw" the new Jerusalem come down out from heaven and land upon the new earth!


    Jim:

    You’re right; John does not explicitly say that he saw a new city land on a new earth. However, the descent of a new city out of a new heaven to a new earth follows the logic of what John actually does say.

    John describes not two things but three things in the actual text of Revelation 21:1 – 22:5: a new heaven, a new earth and a new city. In the actual text, John does not indicate that the new city is the new earth; he describes it as a city. That is what he says.

    In my opinion, the conclusion that the new city is the new earth is considerably less consistent with what John actually says in the text than is the conclusion that when this new city descends out of the new heaven, it will land on the new earth. In my opinion, whereas the latter is an assumption that is logically drawn from what is actually said in the text, the former is not; I think that the former is assumed not because of what is actually said in the text but in spite of what is actually said in the text.

    Look at what John says in verse 21:1. In what way does John say that the new earth differs from the first earth? Does he say that whereas the first earth is located beneath the first heaven, the new earth is located inside the new heaven? Does he say that whereas the first earth is an immense globe (post-Copernicus view) or an immense plain (pre-Copernicus view) that is too large to directly measure, the new earth is a cube that can be directly measured (as he describes the new city to be in 21:15-16)? No, he doesn’t mention either of these things. The only observed difference that John mentions between the first earth and the new earth is that the new earth does not have a sea. That’s it. If the new earth differed from the first earth in the other two ways I mentioned, which would be far more noteworthy than the absence of a sea, certainly John would have said so. The fact that John only mentions the absence of a sea as the way in which the new earth differs from the first earth indicates to me that these other two distinctions are not observed by John.

    Therefore, when John says in the subsequent verses that he sees a new city descend out of the new heaven, I see no reason not believe that he means what he says, and that the new city is seen descending to a new earth beneath the new heaven. In my opinion, to assume that John means something other than what he says (that is, instead of allowing the city to be a city, it is assumed to be the earth) is where the greater speculation lies.


    Hervey:

    Was not the holy city, more than a holy city ? Was it not the New Jerusalem ? Was it not the bride of the Lamb, the Lamb's wife ? Was it not a building ? Was it not also the "New Earth", that John "saw" in verse one ?


    Jim:

    I know that this is your interpretation, but I do not understand this line of reasoning. Apparently there is some aspect of this logic that I’m missing.


    Hervey:

    Jim, God who is the Father of our Lord Jesus the Christ made a promise. I pointed out that this promise was made, and we can read about it in Acts 2:29 & 30 - "that God would raise up Christ to sit upon his throne" I then gave a full explanation about David, and how he was King of "two" thrones. One was the King of Judah, and the other was the King of Israel. I also gave a full explanation, that you can re-read from "that" post.


    Jim:

    I went back and reexamined what you said. This is what you said:

    END OF PART ONE. PLEASE GO TO NEXT POST FOR PART TWO.
     
  8. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

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    PART TWO

    Jim:

    As far as I can tell, prior to David, the twelve tribes of Israel were divided into to two political divisions: (1) the upper ten tribes, politically called Israel, and (2) the lower two tribes, politically called Judah. Near the dividing border between these two political entities was a somewhat neutral city, called Jerusalem.

    David first became king of the lower political entity (Judah), as described in 2 Samuel 2. David then entered into a covenant with the upper political entity (Israel), as described in 2 Samuel 5, thus uniting these two political entities for the first time under one ruler, with David anointed as king over all twelve tribes, at which time David selected the somewhat neutral city Jerusalem as the capital city of these united twelve tribes. David then brought the Ark of the Covenant from Hebron to Jerusalem, as described in 2 Samuel 6. At this point, there was one nation consisting of all twelve tribes, one capital city (Jerusalem), one king and one throne. In 2 Samuel 7, this one throne of King David is prophesied to be established as an eternal throne. In 1 Chronicles 28, David gives the throne to Solomon. In this chapter, the name Israel appears to be used not in reference to the former upper political entity but in reference to the unified nation consisting of all twelve tribes with the genealogical house of Judah (not the former lower political entity but the tribe of Judah itself) as the imperial, ruling tribe. In 1 Kings 8, Solomon appears to be inaugurating the first Temple at Jerusalem. In this chapter, the name Israel again appears to be used in reference to all twelve unified tribes. After the death of Solomon, the nation once again split into upper and lower political entities. Then came destruction, first from the Assyrians, then from the Chaldeans. However, during the reigns of David and Solomon, there appears to have been one throne over one nation, Israel (Jacob, all twelve tribes), with the ruling tribe being Judah (the tribe of David, not the political entity).

    Therefore, I don’t understand where you get the idea that there are two thrones of David. From what I’ve read, there’s only one, and its geographic location is Jerusalem. Genealogically, this throne of David culminates in Christ.

    In Revelation 3:21, Christ (or His angelic messenger) says, “To him that overcometh with I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Two thrones are mentioned here: the throne of the Father in heaven, and the throne of Christ on earth. This second throne is apparently the throne of David. Revelation 5:10 and 20:4-6 indicate that Christ’s saints will reign with Him (sit with Him in His throne) “on the earth.” In Matthew 25:31, Christ says, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN SHALL HE SIT UPON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY.”

    As for whether the statement in Revelation 5:10 that the saints of Christ will reign on the earth applies to chapters 21-22 as well as to chapter 20, I think it does. I don’t know of any scripture that says that the saints of Christ will reign in heaven. Anytime a reference is made to the saints reigning with Christ, it always appears to be in reference to the earth, not to heaven.

    Whether we believe that the New Jerusalem is ON the new earth (as I do) or whether we believe that it IS the new earth (as you do), John describes Christ’s throne and His servants IN the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:3). That means that they’re reigning either in or on the new earth, not in heaven. In light of what John says here, I don’t know why you keep insisting that Christ and His saints will reign in heaven rather than on or in the new earth.


    Hervey:

    Jim, ask you self this question. The information that Rev. 5:10 gives us about the "earth". Is it this present earth that this verse is speaking about, or the New Earth of the future ? By the way, -- The answer is in the context of chapter 5. (sea) <-- one word gives the answer , as to which earth this chapter is talking about. Rev. 21:1 - "no more sea"


    Jim:

    I disagree. The temporal context of Revelation 5:10 and 5:13 is prior to the opening of the seven seals, which is pre-Millennial. The verb tense that John uses regarding the “sea” in verse 5:13 (in this pre-Millennial context) is NOT future tense. At that point, the sea had not yet even turned to blood, much less ceased to exist. In contrast, the verb tense that John uses in verse 5:10, where it is said that “we SHALL REIGN on the earth,” is future tense. I don’t see why this couldn’t refer both to Revelation 20:4-6 and to Revelation 22:5.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Jim:

    Differences can be resolved, if the two parties are willing to absolutly be honest in the conversation on a certain subject. And only then can two people who hold a differing view come together in the unity of a one minded conclusion about this certain subject.

    Here is one problem you and I are constantly facing in our discussions > You said >John describes not two things but three things in the actual text of Revelation 21:1 – 22:5: a new heaven, a new earth and a new city. In the actual text, John does not indicate that the new city is the new earth; he describes it as a city. That is what he says.

    Why we disagree as to whether or not there were two or three things, is because you have added one, that John does not claim in Revelation 21:1. I see "two" -- #1 - New Heaven and #2 - New Earth. What do you see in this verse - more than two ?

    Then John goes on to say in verse two , that this New Earth is one of "two" things - Look closely as to how verse two is written - "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven , prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" - #1 - holy city & #2 bride.

    This verse is telling us that the new Jerusalem is also a bride for her husband. Do you agree ? And if you do, then your theory just fell apart that there were three different things ! You said the three things were the holy city , the new earth, and the new heaven. Yet you never mention the holy city as a bride, nor do you mention that the holy city is also a building. I know you must be thinking to yourself, that the holy city is a bride and a building.

    But here is the problem Jim. In verse one John "saw" a New Heaven and a New Earth = Two

    He did not see "three" things, he only "saw" - "Two" ! One of them became the New Jerusalem, which is also a building and a bride - wife to the Lamb. The New Earth is #1 a holy city, New Jerusalem , #2 - bride - wife - her , #3 - building

    Out of the New Heaven came the New Jerusalem - the bride - wife - building - which "was" the New Earth !

    Look closely at verse 2 and verses9 , 10 & 11 and you will see that the holy city, New Jerusalem is a bride and is called a "her" - a bride, wife. The New Earth was the, holy city and the building, bride, wife of the Lamb. And in verse 23 it tells us that the "holy city" had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, for the glory of God did light it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    The holy city, which is also a building and also a bride, and also a wife had no need for a sun, neither a moon. This earth you and I are on - in , has a need for a sun and a moon. This holy city, new Jerusalem, building, bride, wife has no need for a sun , neither a moon. This holy city, new Jerusalem, building, bride, wife to the Lamb is the New Earth.

    John only saw "Two" and one came out of the other, just as woman came out of man , which God created in his image in Genesis ! ! The New Earth, which was also the holy city, was also the building, but was also the bride, wife to the Lamb -- "she" !

    End of answering what was said in "part one" post.

    Jim: Israel had twelve sons which became the twelve tribes of Israel ( Jacob ). Judah was the fourth son Jacob (Israel). These were the twelve tribes of Israel ( Jacob ). Judah was "one" of the twelve. Judah had two sons , from which became two families of Judah, not tribes of Israel ! I can't tell you how many times I have talked with people who think that Judah had two tribes of Israel. This is just not true ! Judah was "one" tribe, from which Judah had two sons of Tamar - Pharez and Zarah. There are the two twins of Tamar. Judah had three sons with no offspring from any of his three sons. Judah gave Tamar two of his sons and promised to give the youngest, but failed in his unrighteousness. Tamar dressed up as a harlot, and became pregnant with twins. The offspring of Judah from Tamar are the "two" families of Judah. Judah had five sons - three , then two - just like one of the mysteries in the Word --- "the most three, the lest two". Jesus Christ was born through this family line of Pharez, of his mother Tamar, and his father Judah, through King David, unto the flesh line, through Mary, was Christ born. < Matthew chapter one. For 33 years David was King over "both" kingdoms - II Samuel 5:5.

    But the promise of God was "according to the flesh" he would raise up Christ, to sit on the throne of his father David. < Acts 2:30. Christ's flesh line was by way of David, who was King of two different kingdoms at two different times . Once he was king of Judah, then he was King of Israel and Judah. Jesus Christ did not become the King of Judah ! He became the King of the Jews = Israel. It is a "myth", and a "lie", to think that in Judah was there two tribes of Israel. And that when David became King of both Judah and Israel, that in some way that united all of Israel !

    Jerusalem is "not" a part of Israel ( Jacob ) of the tribe of Benjamin, it is a part of Judah - of Israel ( Jacob ), and Bethlahem , the city of David, where David was born and also Jesus the Christ, was in Judah , not Israel. Jerusalem was on the north of Judah, but was counted unto Benjamin , even though it was "in" Judah.

    When God raised up Christ , he also seated him on his right side in the kingdom of heaven. But God made the earth Christ's footstool. Christ was the King of the Jews, and the Jews killed their King. When God did that, Christ became King of this world and reigns > I Corinth. 15:25, then he will hand over the Kingdom of this world to his Father, who is God, and the Kingdom of this world is called the "Kingdom of God" > I Corinth. 15:24

    The "Kingdom of God" is established on the "New Earth", and inside of the New Jerusalem - wife - bride - building, which is the New Earth, is where the "throne of God" is ! Inside is the tree of life and the water of life that proceeds out of the "throne of God".

    Throughout the epistles there is references to the #1 "Kingdom of Heaven, and #2 - "Kingdom of God. You can find these throughout the epistles idicating "two" kingdoms, just like there were "two" kingdoms under Israel - #1 - Judah and #2 Israel -- Both are "of each other" ! !

    Jim you said >
    As for whether the statement in Revelation 5:10 that the saints of Christ will reign on the earth applies to chapters 21-22 as well as to chapter 20, I think it does. I don’t know of any scripture that says that the saints of Christ will reign in heaven. Anytime a reference is made to the saints reigning with Christ, it always appears to be in reference to the earth, not to heaven.

    Whether we believe that the New Jerusalem is ON the new earth (as I do) or whether we believe that it IS the new earth (as you do), John describes Christ’s throne and His servants IN the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:3). That means that they’re reigning either in or on the new earth, not in heaven. In light of what John says here, I don’t know why you keep insisting that Christ and His saints will reign in heaven rather than on or in the new earth.


    Jim: I pointed out to you that the New Earth there is no "sea". That means that Rev. chapter 5 is talking about this present earth, and not the New Earth ! So chapter 5 can "not" apply to the New Earth in chapters 21 & 22. It just can't ! Rev. chapter 5 talks about a "sea", and Rev. chapter 21 says that in the New Earth there is no more sea ! So how can you disagree ? Don't you see this ? Chapter 5 is talking about Christ reigning until he hands over the kingdom of the world to his Father, who is God.

    continued >
     
  10. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    continued >

    Jim you said >
    I disagree. The temporal context of Revelation 5:10 and 5:13 is prior to the opening of the seven seals, which is pre-Millennial. The verb tense that John uses regarding the “sea” in verse 5:13 (in this pre-Millennial context) is NOT future tense. At that point, the sea had not yet even turned to blood, much less ceased to exist. In contrast, the verb tense that John uses in verse 5:10, where it is said that “we SHALL REIGN on the earth,” is future tense. I don’t see why this couldn’t refer both to Revelation 20:4-6 and to Revelation 22:5.

    Jim , no , the seven seals line up with the seven administrations. It is during the opening of the sixth seal that the tribulation begins, and not until the seventh seal is the great wrath of God period. We now are in the fifth seal - which is also the fifth administration known as the "grace" period. Rev. 20:4 occurs during the sixth seal, or sixth administration. At the end of the fifth seal Christians are "gathered up" to be with the Lord forever. This is "when" God puts all things under his feet to reign here on this earth. We reign "with" Christ until this earthly kingdom is handed over to the Father. These are the "thrones" in Rev. 20:4, that we who were made kings reign from. Then during the seventh seal period, is the thousand year reign of the 144,000 with Christ, which is the "great wrath of God" administration, which is what occurs during the seventh seal. When this thousand year reign is over, then the rest of the dead will be raised > Rev. 20:5. And that will be the end of the "seven seals".

    When the seven seals are finished, then Christ will hand over the kingdom of this world to the Father. This earth will be destroyed during the seventh seal period, and a New Earth will be established, and in this New Earth, God will set his Throne > Rev. 22:1 & 2.

    Before the New Earth is established, the New Heaven had already been established. The New Earth comes down out of the New Heaven. John "saw" a New Heaven and a New Earth. She, the New Earth - the holy city, New Jerusalem, bride, wife , building becomes the dwelling place of God and his throne. His wife and himself (man image) become "One".

    Jesus Christ already has a wife, and his wife is the body of Christ. The two became "One" when Christ gathered up his body - the Church. Christ is seated at the right hand of God and we are seated with him in the heavenlies - Ephesians 2:6.

    God hands over his throne in heaven to his Son, as David did with Solomon, and this is what becomes the New Heaven. Solomon built the house of God, and this is an image of the New Jerusalem. The New Earth , is the New Jerusalem, which is the bride, wife of the Lamb, and the two become one , this is the New house of God. REV. 21:5 - "behold I make all things new"

    (Sorry this is so long - but :)

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  11. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Differences can be resolved …


    Jim:

    I don’t think they can be. In my opinion, an examination of the last few messages that we’ve posted to one another proves this point. We don’t interpret the Bible the same way, we don’t reason the same way, and in some instances, it appears to me that we don’t even speak the same language; you don’t seem to understand what I’ve said, and I don’t understand what you’ve said. Since we can’t find a common point of reference on which to base a debate, I guess there’s not too much more to say on this subject. I’ve found our conversation interesting and challenging; but at this point, our apparent inability to communicate with one another has become frustrating to me. Perhaps I’ll chime in later; but for now, I’m taking a break from this thread.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi All:

    Those of you who have been following these conversations between Jim and myself, I thought I would do a follow up on some of the comments made.

    During the time of the revolt of the ten tribes of Israel, David was dead and buried. Solomon his son was reigning as King over Israel and Judah at the time of the revolt of the ten tribes of Israel.

    Solomon was going to make his son Rehoboam King over Israel and Judah before he died. Solomon dies, and Israel ( The ten tribes ) reject the son of Solomon to be King over Israel. Rehoboam then only becomes King over Judah, and not over Israel. Israel makes Jeroboam King over Israel. David and Solomon were the only two Kings, which were over "both" Judah and Israel.

    The tribe of Benjamin was an outcast from the tribes of Israel . So when the ten tribes revolted, the tribe of Benjamin was willing to stand up with the tribe of Judah and was willing to war against Israel. But God told both tribes not to go up against your brethren, the children of Israel.

    God finally destroyed Israel, but he did not destroy Judah because of that which David did right in the eyes of the Lord while he was King of Judah. God set up a lamp in Jerusalem , which was a part of Judah, to set up his son after him , and to establish Jerusalem - I Kings 15:4. David was the first King of Judah, and his son Solomon after him, and his son Rehoboam after him. But only Solomon reigned over Israel and Judah after his father David.

    Read I Kings chapters 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15

    This will give you the full context of what I just shared with you.

    The son of Rehoboam - "Abijam" reigned in Judah after his father Rehoboam ( in the book of Chronicles, his named is spelled "Abijah", so be careful as to which "Abijah" you are reading about. Then "Asa" , the son of "Abajam", the son of "Rehoboam", the son of Solomon, the son of David reigned in Judah. And "Asa" did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did his father David, all the days he reigned as King of Judah. Then Jehoshaphat , the son of Asa reigned after his father's death. Then Jehoshaphat died, and his son Jehoram reigned in Judah as King. Etc - Etc son after son after David their father.

    One final note about "who" reigns in the New Earth.

    Christians, whom God made kings an priests do not reign in the New Earth.

    In Rev. 22:3 & 4 & 5 - tells us that those who shall have his name in their foreheads , who are servants unto God - "they shall reign for ever and ever in the New Jerusalem , which is the New Earth. The 144,000 that were sealed in their foreheads were the "servants" of God - Rev. 7:3 & 4. These 144,000 came from the twelve tribes of Jacob ( Israel ). The twelve tribes of Israel no longer are Kings, but "servants" unto God. The 144,000 that were "faithful" unto death, are the one's who will reign with God for ever and ever in the New Jerusalem, which is the New Earth.

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  13. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
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    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    One final note about "who" reigns in the New Earth. Christians, whom God made kings an priests do not reign in the New Earth. In Rev. 22:3 & 4 & 5 - tells us that those who shall have his name in their foreheads , who are servants unto God - "they shall reign for ever and ever in the New Jerusalem , which is the New Earth. The 144,000 that were sealed in their foreheads were the "servants" of God - Rev. 7:3 & 4. These 144,000 came from the twelve tribes of Jacob ( Israel ). The twelve tribes of Israel no longer are Kings, but "servants" unto God. THE 144,000 THAT WERE "FAITHFUL" UNTO DEATH, ARE THE ONE'S WHO WILL REIGN WITH GOD FOR EVER AND EVER IN THE NEW JERUSALEM, WHICH IS THE NEW EARTH.


    Jim:

    Please consider the following passages:

    It appears from these passages that the 144,000 are not the only ones referred to as “servants” in Revelation. Neither are they the only ones with God’s name written “upon” (1909, epi) or “in” (1909, epi) them. John is called a servant. The people to whom this Revelation was written (the seven churches in Asia Minor) are called servants. The prophets are called servants. Moses is called a servant. All of the martyrs, including the multitude that comes out of great tribulation, are called servants. Even the angels are called servants. Christ says to the churches that He will write the name of God and the name of God’s city “upon” (1909, epi) those who overcome. Both Revelation 7:15 (describing the multitude that comes out of great tribulation) and 22:3 speak of God’s servants serving Him. The only two places in Revelation that speak of reigning forever and ever are 11:15 and 22:5. Christ and His servants will reign forever and ever.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  14. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim, its good to have you back :)

    Your words and verses will be in red , and my replies will be in blue .

    You said and quoted scripture >

    Jim:

    Please consider the following passages:

    O K



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, TO SHEW UNTO HIS SERVANTS things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his SERVANT John:

    Which earth ? Servant John on "this" present earth, not the New Earth !

    Revelation 1:4 John TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    Not addressed to the Church, the body of Christ !

    Revelation 2:20 [to the church in Thyatira] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my SERVANTS to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

    Servants on this earth, "after" -> "The Church" the body of Christ has already been gathered up. The seven churches of Asia, appear during the tribulation period, which is the sixth seal period of time - administration.

    Revelation 3:12 [to the churches] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I WILL WRITE UPON [1909, epi] HIM THE NAME OF MY GOD, and THE NAME OF THE CITY OF MY GOD, which is NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Those who "overcome" are those who receive his name, the name of God upon them. Only 144,000 - "overcame".

    Revelation 6:11 And WHITE ROBES were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their FELLOWSERVANTS also and THEIR BRETHREN, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    "Fellowservants" from which earth ? This present earth, and not the New Earth. Those who are in white robes are the gathered up Christians waiting for the fellowservants and their brethren - "that should be killed" -- only 144,000 were faithful unto death.

    Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the SERVANTS of our God in their foreheads.

    Rev. 7:3 is talking about the 144,000 -- just keep reading.

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with WHITE ROBES, and palms in their hands … 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in WHITE ROBES? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, AND SERVE HIM day and night in his temple: and HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.

    Jim, I can not tell any person enough to look at the context, and compair it to that which is the subject at hand. The subject at hand is the New Earth , and the New Heaven. Look for "key" words to help you understand which Earth, or which Heaven the verse or verses are talking about. Here are the "key words" you do not see, because you don't look for them > In verse 15 it says - "day and night" in his temple". In the New Earth there is "no night" ! ! > Rev. 21:25. Like I told you earlier, in a previous post. The New Heaven is established first. These verses are talking about Christians , who have been gathered up, and "they" are the "multitude" spoken about. These are they which came out of great tribulation. Not "The great tribulation", but great tribulation. Simular, but not identical. The sixth seal period - administration is "The Great Tribulation" which is instituded by God, but the tribulation we are in now (as I type), this tribulation is instituded by the adversary upon those who whorship God, and walk faithfully in his ways. Check these verses out - I Thessalonians 3:4 -- Romans 8:35 - Ephesians 3:13

    Who will be cast into the "great tribulation" --> Rev. 2:22


    Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his SERVANTS the prophets.

    This verse is talking about the end of the Mystery of God, which is the two churches coming together as one. The building and the body. We are the temple ( Knowledge ) of God , and God has placed us in the body of Christ where it has pleased him. Some only know in part the knowledge that God has made available to the Church. The fulfillment of the work of the the "revealed Mystery" is only complete upon our being with Christ, until he hands over the kingdom of this world unto his Father.

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because THOU HAST TAKEN TO THEE THY GREAT POWER, AND HAST REIGNED.

    Yes, as I just said above, the total rulership of this world will be handed over to God, who is the Father, and then God will be all in all. This world still will be destroyed, but the rulership will be handed over to the Father. He = God, shall reign in the New Earth forever and ever.

    Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy SERVANTS the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    This is talking about the beginning of the seventh seal period - administration. Wrath of God period - administration

    Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having HIS FATHER'S NAME WRITTEN IN [1909, epi] THEIR FOREHEADS

    Right ! -- 144,000 - No more, and no less

    Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the SERVANT of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    Moses was a "servant" of God upon "this earth".

    Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his SERVANTS at her hand.

    She killed the prophets and saints = servants. > Read Rev.17:6, in fact -- read Rev. 17:1 thru verse 18 = whole chapter.

    Revelation 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his SERVANTS, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy FELLOWSERVANT, and of THY BRETHREN that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Revelation 21:27 AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his SERVANTS SHALL SERVE HIM:

    Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and HIS NAME SHALL BE IN [1909, epi] THEIR FOREHEADS. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and THEY SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER. 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his SERVANTS the things which must shortly be done.
    Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy FELLOWSERVANT, and of THY BRETHREN the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Jim: Please read what I wrote in blue, and check out those other verses that I brought to this conversation.

    Peace brother

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  15. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    You initially claimed that the people described in 22:3-4 are the 144,000 because they also are called servants (7:3).

    I then pointed out that the 144,000 are not the only people in Revelation who are called servants (1:1, 2:20, 6:11, 10:7, 11:8, 15:3, 19:5 and 22:6). Even the angels are called servants (19:10 and 22:9).

    Your response to this was that these other people don’t count because they’re of the first earth, as if the 144,000 are not of the first earth. However, all the people in Revelation are of the first earth. All the people in the eternal city of God come from the first earth.

    You initially claimed that the people described in 22:3-4 are the 144,000 because they also have God’s name written in their foreheads (14:1).

    I then pointed out that the 144,000 are not the only people in Revelation who have God’s name written in them (3:12). The same Greek word “epi,” 1909, is rendered “upon” in 3:12 and “in” in 14:1 and 22:4.

    Your response to this was that these other people don’t count because the 144,000 are the only ones that overcome in accordance with 3:12.

    However, verse 3:5 says that the people that overcome will wear white, and their names will not be blotted out of the book of life. Well, the people described in 6:9-11 and 7:9-18 certainly appear to fit that criteria. The word “fellowservants” in 6:11 means that both the fifth-seal martyrs and those martyrs that come after them are “servants.”

    Also, 7:15 describes the “great multitude …clothed with white robes” (7:9) “serving” God in His temple. Thus, it appears that this “multitude” is composed of servants of God who have overcome in accordance with 3:5 and who must therefore have God’s name written in them in accordance with 3:12.

    Also, it seems unbelievable to me that no one either in the church in Smyrna (2:8-10) or in the church in Philadelphia (3:7-11), against whom Christ has nothing negative to say, would overcome. And what about Antipas (2:13)? Is he not an overcomer?

    Your reasons for excluding all but the 144,000 from 22:3-4 do not appear to be valid.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  16. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    The “Revelation of Jesus Christ” to be “shewn unto his servants” (1:1) was “written in a book, and sent unto the seven churches which are in Asia” (1:11) to “shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done” (22:6) and to “testify unto [them] these things in the churches” (22:16).

    This is what Christ said through His angel to the churches:

    An overcomer is a servant of the Lord for whom all of these things described above are true. All of these things are true for whomever any one of these things is shown to be true in the Revelation. Thus, all of these things are true for whomever is shown to be dressed in white (3:5) in Revelation, such as those who are described in 6:9-11, in 7:9-18 and in 19:14. Likewise, all of these things are true for whomever is shown to be exempt from the second death (2:11) in Revelation, such as those who are described in 20:6. Likewise, all of these things are true for whomever is shown to have access to the tree of life (2:7) in Revelation, such as those who are described in 22:14. Likewise, all of these things are true for whomever is shown to have God’s name written on or in them (3:12) in Revelation, such as those who are described in 14:1 and in 22:4.

    Notice that this means that everyone who is described in 6:9-11, 7:9-18, 14:1, 19:14, 20:6, 22:4 and 22:14 is an overcomer. Notice also that this means that all overcomers “enter in through the gates into the city” (22:14), as all overcomers “have right to the tree of life” (2:7 and 2:14). The people described in 20:4-6, the people described in 22:3-5 and the people described in 22:14 are the same people; they’re overcomers.

    Whoever is exempt from the second death is an overcomer (2:11). Conversely, whoever is not an overcomer is subject to the second death (20:15). Thus, Revelation divides people into two groups: (1) overcomers, who are exempt from the second death and who have a right to the tree of life and to enter through the gates into the city, and (2) those who are not exempt from the second death, who do not have a right to the tree of life or to enter through the gates into the city. This division of people into these two groups is consistent with what is stated in 21:27: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Thus, there is only one book of life, not two. The Lamb’s book of life is the book of life, and the book of life is the Lamb's book of life. The Lamb's book of life and the book of life are the same book. They are not two separate books.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    You said >
    Whoever is exempt from the second death is an overcomer (2:11). Conversely, whoever is not an overcomer is subject to the second death (20:15). Thus, Revelation divides people into two groups, overcomers, who are exempt from the second death and who have a right to the tree of life and to enter through the gates into the city, and those who are not exempt from the second death, who do not have a right to the tree of life or to enter through the gates into the city. This is exactly as is stated in 21:27: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Thus, there is only one book of life, not two. The Lamb’s book of life is the book of life.

    Jim: No - no - and again no !

    Your responses , again, change, what the Word of God is saying in the book of Revelation !

    There is "nothing" in the book of Revelation which states that -whoever is exempt from the second death is an overcomer ! !

    Yes, as far as the 7 churches, this is true, but not "whoever" !

    Israel was not one of the seven churches ! Yet, God blotted out some of their names from the "book of life". And there were others who lived during the OT that were not of the great nation of Israel. They also have their names in the "book of life", unless God also blotted their names out , for some reason.

    Those "whose names" - "are not written in the book of life" - will end up in the Lake of fire = second death !

    You said >. Notice also that this means that all overcomers “enter in through the gates into the city” (22:14),

    The Word of God, in the book of Revelation "does not say that" ! !

    It says - "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city"

    Who are the "blessed" ? Who are "they" that "do" his commandments ?

    Answer: Those who are - "faithful" - "called" - "chosen" --> Rev. 17:14 . Which are the "saints" --> II Thess. 1:7 - 11

    I am not ignoring anything that you have brought to this conversation. I am just trying to shorten it a little.

    Rev. 22:4 - "Names in their "forehead"
    Rev. 22:17 - "New name in the stone"

    Who will "reign" for ever and ever ? --> Rev. 22:4 & 5 - "those who have "his name" in their foreheads", "will reign for ever".

    How many have "his name" in their foreheads ?

    Answser: 144,000 --> Rev 14:1

    Not - "upon him" as it states in Rev. 3:12

    You brought this verse also to the conversation in your last post --> Rev. 3:27 - "rule them with a rod of iron" <--- doesn't sound like the New Earth to me !!! <---- Rev. 21:4. In the New Earth, are we going to be "ruled with a rod of iron" ? NO ! - In fact this verse is "not" talking about the New Earth. It is talking about this earth during the sixth seal administration.


    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  18. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Hi Jim:

    There "are" Two books of life !!

    #1 - the book of life
    #2 - The Lamb's book of life

    IN Christ - Hervey
     
  19. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    Dear Hervey,


    Hervey:

    Jim: No - no - and again no ! Your responses , again, change, what the Word of God is saying in the book of Revelation ! There is "nothing" in the book of Revelation which states that – whoever is exempt from the second death is an overcomer! ! Yes, as far as the 7 churches, this is true, but not "whoever" !


    Jim:

    Yes, yes, and again yes! My response is not changing anything. It is pointing out what the text plainly states. The problem you’re having what I’ve said is that it is inconsistent with your interpretive assumptions. Contrary to your interpretive assumptions, there are NOT different sets of rules for different people. The rules are the same for everyone, as is confirmed in the following passages:
    This is what Christ says to all seven churches through His angel:
    The blessings available to “whosoever will” (22:17) are stated by Christ’s angel “to the churches” in chapters 2-3: “He that overcometh” inherits these blessings. The inheritance of these blessings are described in various places throughout Revelation, such as 6:9-11, 7:9-18, 14:1-5, 14:13-16, 15:2-4, 19:7-9, 19:14, 20:4-6, 21:2-7, 21:24 – 22:5 and 22:14. There is not one person dressed in white in Revelation who is not an overcomer. There is not one person exempt from the second death in Revelation who is not an overcomer. There is not one person in New Jerusalem in Revelation who is not an overcomer. There is not one overcomer in Revelation who does not inherit all of the blessings stated by Christ’s angel in chapters 2-3. As the voice out of heaven said to John in 21:7, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things.”

    To say that some of the people inheriting these blessings are not overcomers is to directly contradict what is explicitly stated in the text of Revelation. Likewise, to say that some of the overcomers do not inherit all of the blessings stated in chapters 2-3 is to directly contradict what is explicitly stated in the text.


    Hervey:

    You said, “Notice also that this means that all overcomers “enter in through the gates into the city” (22:14).” The Word of God, in the book of Revelation "does not say that" ! ! It says - "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" Who are the "blessed" ? Who are "they" that "do" his commandments ?


    Jim:

    Only overcomers actually do the commandments of Christ. The angel quotes Christ in 22:12-13, saying, “… behold, I come quickly … to give to every man according as his work shall be …” Then the angel says in 22:14, “Blessed are they that do his [Christ’s] commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” What’s the alternative to this? The angel explains the alternative in 22:15, saying, “For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” These are the same people described as having their part in the second death in 21:8. Thus, the angel describes an either-or potential: either (1) we enter through the gates into the city or (2) we suffer the second death. Those are two possibilities available to us.

    Doing the commandments of Christ does not consist of trying to save oneself through the law by keeping the ten commandments. It consists of obeying Christ and doing God’s will. The context of this statement in 22:14 is the coming of the Lord and the judgment He brings with Him as described in verses 22:12-13. Regarding this judgment, Christ says in Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Thus, “he that doeth the will of my Father” in Matthew 7:21 and “he that overcometh” in Revelation 2-3 are the same person, whosoever he may be. As the angel says in Revelation 22:17, “… whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” We are all free to choose life, but this life does not extend to those who stop at merely saying, Lord, Lord. It is only extended to those who “do the will of [His] Father in heaven,” or as the angel puts it in Revelation 22:14, to those who “do his commandments.”

    This idea of yours that there is a way for people to be in the New Jerusalem other than by being “overcomers” and other than by “entering in through the gates” is nothing more than your idea. It is your own interpretive assumption. This idea of yours DOES NOT EXIST IN THE TEXT.


    Hervey:

    Who will "reign" for ever and ever ? --> Rev. 22:4 & 5 - "those who have "his name" in their foreheads", "will reign for ever". How many have "his name" in their foreheads ? Answser: 144,000 --> Rev 14:1 Not - "upon him" as it states in Rev. 3:12.


    Jim:

    The prepositional distinction that you’re making here does not appear to exist in the Greek. This is what Revelation 3:12, 14:1 and 22:3-4 say:
    Hervey:

    You brought this verse also to the conversation in your last post --> Rev. 3:27 - "rule them with a rod of iron" <--- doesn't sound like the New Earth to me !!! <---- Rev. 21:4. In the New Earth, are we going to be "ruled with a rod of iron" ? NO ! - In fact this verse is "not" talking about the New Earth. It is talking about this earth during the sixth seal administration.


    Jim:

    In quoting what Christ said to the churches, I said this:
    This is one of the blessings associated with being an “overcomer.” I never said that this apparent reference to the Millennial reign was a reference to the post-Millennial, eternal reign. I merely quoted it as one of the blessings associated with being an “overcomer.”

    END OF PART ONE. PLEASE GO TO PART TWO.
     
  20. Jim1

    Jim1 Regular Member

    263
    +6
    Christian
    PART TWO


    Hervey:

    There "are" Two books of life !! #1 - the book of life #2 - The Lamb's book of life


    Jim:

    You are incorrect. You have assumed this in your mind to fit your interpretive assumptions. The text neither states nor requires nor supports your assumption. Concluding that “the book of life” and “the Lamb’s book of life” are two different books is like concluding that “Jesus, Jesus Christ” and “Christ” are three different people.

    This is what Revelation says regarding those who “overcome:”
    Question: Who does 22:14 say enters in through the gates into the city?
    Answer: He that has right to the tree of life.

    Question: Who does 2:7 say is allowed to eat of the tree of life?
    Answer: He that overcomes.

    Question: From what book does 3:5 say he that overcomes will not be blotted out? Answer: The book of life.

    Question: Then what book allows a person to enter in through the gates into the
    city?
    Answer: The book of Life.

    Question: What book does 21:27 say allows a person to enter into the city?
    Answer: The Lamb’s book of life.

    Question: If the book of life allows a person to enter in through the gates into the city, and if the Lamb’s book of life allows a person to enter into the city, what does that say about the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life?
    Answer: They’re the same book.


    Sincerely,
    Jim
     
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