New faith icon for MJ need help with the name

[Messianic Jewboy]

The group you're describing, "Christians United for Israel", is noble in their goal to support the Israeli state at all costs and pray for Jerusalem. But indeed, what they and their pastor do (John Hagee) is very anti-Christ since even Christ noted to the Jewish people that they needed His blood/Grace to find salvation---and no amount of Torah observance would ever be enough to merit one into the Kingdom. Nicodemus was told that plainly in John 3 and its interesting to see how many times what Christ said is reversed when trying so much to appeal to others loving Law......

The rabbi at our congregation doesn't address theologies put this one he addressed and said the same as you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The rabbi at our congregation doesn't address theologies put this one he addressed and said the same as you.

What congregation did you attend again, by the way? I believe I missed it where you noted it (if you did), even though I know you've mentioned some of the teachings your rabbi has shared before and I'd love to investigate more into any series your fellowship has made available But nonetheless, glad to know the leader of your fellowship addressed it as well...as it's no small issue.

Sadly, what often seems to happen is that people discussing the blood/grace of Yeshua in salvation must mean that the Law/Torah is of no importance...yet not many seem to listen to what other Jewish believers have noted when it comes to sharing how love/appreciation for the Laws the Lord laid down was still important. What made the difference, however, was that the Law had a differing emphasis than how it was before the arrival of the Messiah---and it's not a matter of one doing the Law in order to gain more "righteousness" before the Lord. Many often say that it's by the Blood of Yeshua that men are saved/perfected and justified....but then tell other believers that they need to practice more of the Law if they really want to show that Yeshua redeemed/sanctified them. But the scriptures do not seem to say at ANY point that those who've been more redeemed/renewed in the Blood of Christ are those who are attempting to be more Torah Observant before Him. In many ways, to think that it's our observance of Torah that gains us something that was satisfied solely in Christ's life/death is a means of circumventing what the Lord said he came to do when it came to seeing how he was the one that all of the Laws always pointed to--the Focus/goal of it (more shared here and here in #50 / #122 and #136 )



Qnts2 said it best, alongside yourself, in previous conversation when it came to discussing aspects of the Mosaic Law that many are often unaware when it comes to discussing the ways that we are saved. As said before:

The Mosaic Laws

Just some comments of my own in this discussion. It's interesting that Messianic Jewish leadership exemplifies and exercises grace in regards to the Mosaic Laws compared to what I would call fringe groups such as Hebrew roots, two house, one law etc.

I don't have much physical experience with these fringe groups but have experience online. I hear this all the time 'you have to keep the law and if you don't....' I hope this isn't our position here. Perhaps some of us here want to hear this from Messianic Jewish leadership, a more emphasis on the Mosaic laws towards a more but not quite 'we have to keep the law' or a 'we should keep the law'.

What I didn't get from the audio was telling that we should keep the law or how we should keep the law, pretty much in line with my experience both physically and online.
.

But. I do not believe that only the 'judgements/punishments' were nailed to the cross.

The Mosaic law is one. It is mans responsibility under the Mosaic covenant. It is beautiful and true and it points to the Messiah. It can not be sorted thru, picking and choosing what applies and what doesn't. Without the punishments, which are actually quite important in the picture the law draws, the law stops being a law but becomes a suggestion. The end of the punishments end the judges and the courts, which is again much of the law simply eliminated.

In my pre-Jesus days, one job I had was as a teacher in the synagogues schools. I was hired for a while by a Reform congregation to teach the Jewish children the Mosaic law (these were about to be Bar Mitzvah/Bat Mitzvah). I am familiar with the knowledge of Reform about the law, because it was my job to give them an Orthodox introduction so they would know more of the diversity in Judaism.

These Reform Jewish kids did not grow up in Kosher homes, so one of the first things I taught was how to keep a Kosher home and prepare Kosher food. This is the kind of basic many Reform Jews may not know but that doesn't mean these kids are ignorant of the Law. They practice many other laws. They may not know how to wrap the Tefillin, or the prayers to say while putting them on. They may not know the outward physical part done while davening, or the complete prayers, but they do know much of the prayer as most is said in groups reading in a Reform service.

I personally think one of the saddest thing I have seen is a very new Jewish believer who became involved in a group which said the law was most important, and proceeded to teach this new Jewish believer the various intricacies of the Mosaic law, of course their version of it. This was sad because as a New Jewish believer, they were missing some of the most important parts of the education of a New Messianic Jewish believer. They knew almost nothing about Yeshua, other then He is the Messiah and Savior. They needed to learn what is the single most important thing in Messianic Judaism. They needed to learn about Yeshua. And prayer other then repetitive prayer. And reading the NT. And as a Jewish believer, they needed to learn how to deal with the trials of being a Jewish believer, with family rejection and community rejection. Because of the rejection, and the likelihood of running into anti-missionaries whose purpose is to dissuade them from believing on Jesus, they needed to have a solid grounding in the Tenakh and NT, so they knew what they believed, why, and could defend the faith in Yeshua.

​

 

[Desert Rose]

Im making a poll
I just need to know what those who would use this icon prefer...

Should it be called a Hebrew Christian icon
Or an MJ icon
And if MJ what should the description be to distinguish it from the Torah scroll?

Messianic Seal (Messianic Christianity)

Dear, i am sorry for being dense, but would you kindly elaborate - Whats the objective of the additional names? To prevent some fights and make it easier to moderate, make the conversation run smoother, etc? .. if so, i am all for it, whatever is decided, great, i like "Hebrew Christian".

But if its just for "religious vanity"... then no, i, for one, would be against it.

 

[Yahudim]

The rabbi at our congregation doesn't address theologies put this one he addressed and said the same as you.

I too, being Torah observant, agree with the need of His blood and His grace. But just because you have accepted His gracious gift, doesn't mean that you should ignore His commandments as they apply to the individual. For me at least, it is not an either/or situation. It is rather, truth or consequences, all or nothing.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Whats the objective of the additional names? To prevent some fights and make it easier to moderate, make the conversation run smoother, etc? .. if so, i am all for it, whatever is decided, great, i like "Hebrew Christian".

But if its just for "religious vanity"... then no, i, for one, would be against it.

I think, based on what Tishri has noted in giving more details, that the goal is to make identification of where others are at and thus the assumptions that can be made to determine how to respond is what is in view.

 

[Avodat]

Just wondering where the mantra often put forward by Mods - that we do not judge people by their icon but by the content of their posts - fits into this thread?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't know if this is "up to date" anymore. I've been reading an MJ book that says that HC is an "old" term that has been superseded by MJ. Frankly, I am kind of over it too. No one else is forced to don their ethnic background here (eg. "Puerto-Rican Christian" or "Chinese Christian") I'm a Messianic Jew. I might work in the Church, but my life is Jewish and I was raised Jewish (and in fact I think only myself and maybe one or two others here can claim that- and one of them is Rabbinic)

I believe the story of a Messianic Jew is someone who has been religiously and halachically Jewish and now believes Jesus is the Messiah. I am unsure whether those raised as Christians with a Jewish parent or two have the same experience as we do. To me, they would kind of be more "Hebrew Christian" than a Jew who is now Messianic (eg. Jesus as Messiah making the difference) They were raised in the Christian faith, after all. Up to now, the HC term has been a theological one as far as here goes: but it's inaccurate due to the variety of Jewish expressions the mainstream churches now embrace and encourage.

What is ironic is this: others here work and worship in the Church but sport the Torah Scroll icon. Something I was told was a "no no". I know for a fact that I am more Torah observant than most of the posters here, with the exception of those who are Rabbinic Jews. This is kind of difficult to categorize, I think.
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Excellent way of conveying the ways that the situation can be very intricate and more in-depth than many realize, depending on how one sees it....and why there needs to always be sensitivity on the matter. Never considered the aspect you brought up with others not being forced to identify as "Puerto-Rican Christian" or "Chineese Christian" before.....even though some are proud enough of their ethnic heritage to put that into their signature or monikers so that others know what cultures are central to them....and indeed, Jewishness was never meant to be based on whether or not one attends a Church, seeing the myriad of ways Jewish individuals live their lifestyle. Many Jews do not even go to synagouge...and I'm reminded of the many who may be Jewish and yet live in the outdoors, living in a very earthy manner that would make them feel highly uncomfortable in a synagouge...and for them, they'd probably prefer the nomadic/travelling lifestyle that the Patriarchs and ancient Israel had when living outside in tents (Genesis 25 ,Genesis 13:4-6 , Numbers 1:51-53 )/farming and raising herds. If their form of ministry involved travel and gathering together in the community to have the brotherhood share words of encouragment or the main leader of the camp give his own perspective, would that person cease to be Jewish? If they continued to want to make sacrifices in the same way that others such as Job and the Patriarches did to honor the Lord, counter to what many MJish fellowships are comfortable, would they not be allowed to be "Messianic Jewish" anymore? Some would say "Well, that's not Jewish enough because what's really Jewish is what happened in Synagouges"--but even synagouges were considered to be an innovation to preserve what many Jews felt necessary....and other Jews were never apart of that dynamic, especially those scattered before the synagouge concept arose, varied as those groups may be...and some of the mindset that the synagouge concept (as it was not outlined within scripture as a command) was meant to be something that could evolve with the times (seen here/here/here ).

There has always been a very vast diversity level within Judaism itself--and many times, that doesn't seem to be well represented. when it comes to trying to define how all within MJism should look like/where they should fit into with many of the constructs that others say are necessary for one to be truly Messianic Jewish.

On groups of Jews that may not always fit the mold, Berber Jews (seen here , here and here)come immediately to my mind, as they live in the mountains and have a lifestyle that would be RADICALLY diifferent from the way many Jews in the U.S are used to...especially as it concerns synagouge life I'm also reminded of Jews who have a Native American heritage to apart of their history and live off the land....and are very devout/honoring of the Lord, even though they may not have a traditional focus on synagouge as other Jewish communities do.

Whenever discussion occurs about trying to do outreach toward Jews and assuming that the MJish synagogues of today are what ALL Jews need to come into, I'm of the mindset that Jews of many differing cultural backgrounds are done a disservice

I think what has become evident is this: people are people, and identity is very personal.

The more icons you make, the more choices people have, or conversely the more prejudice you can exercise over them. Maybe the freedom of choice is a good thing, but maybe putting too much definition into an icon is unworkable.

No symbol alone will ever be able to fully sum up all of the experiences and values an individual may possess, IMHO..and it can be negative when people try to summarize others solely by an icon and then "size them up" (so to speak) without ever truly knowing them or being concerned with finding out about who they are, IMHO.

Look at the other forums. The Lutheran forum for example has all kinds of shades and versions of Lutheranism represented- but one icon only. Here, some people want to slice and dice and judge others according to their own ideas about religious and ethnic identity (and really, this can border on prejudice).

Real...

Could it not be that people are getting a little too eager to categorize? Is not one icon enough, or if you have more than one, would people find more freedom to self-express, or would it be more pigeon-holing?

Ultimately, I think it comes down to the way others choose to percieve others. If deeming someone you happen to disagree with as an enemy, anything--be it in word, deed or even an icon--will be treated with suspicion and bad judgement ....to the point of saying another is trying to somehow "mislead" others or claiming others don't "deserve" to have a symbol as much as others may, even though others may actively be involved in the MJish movement/well connected with many facets of it....or, as you've said of yourself, others may assume one cannot be Jewish and go to Church because of a prior prejudice that he or she may have toward Churches and Christianity, thus making anything they disagree with into an "enemy."


The same goes for Torah Observance, as it concerns others deeming others as not truly observing Torah due to how they may observe it at differing levels than what they think is approrpriate...and even if/when others share where they already observe in the same areas, it's treated with scorn. However, if it happens to be someone who either agrees with them or someone they like, automatically they're able to "hear" what another says and find a reason to look for more ways that they can connect. It's like having two people saying they're "Torah Observant" and yet because one has a differing view on Gentiles than another, one individual will automatically assume there's some kind of conspiracy whenever the other individual has conversation with other Jewish believers.....and even if/when they may agree, there'll be actions going down that'll always make the other look like they're somehow doing things "worse" than how it actually is. This is seen all the time when others in Jewish Christianity look at others saying all aspects of Christianity are against Torah while MJism is claimed to be different---and even when the Jewish Christians note that they observe TOrah in the same manner as those in MJish circles, it's chalked up to just be "different" because there's the previous assumption others do not wish to let go of when thinking Christianity must be against Torah Observance...

It seems to me that there is more alarm over icons and identity than is necessary. Only a few posters here feel outraged over discussions about the Torah. Most are pretty relaxed about it.

Just a thought

Thanks for sharing, Sir..

 

[Mr. Donut]

Im making a poll
I just need to know what those who would use this icon prefer...

Should it be called a Hebrew Christian icon
Or an MJ icon
And if MJ what should the description be to distinguish it from the Torah scroll?

Messianic Seal (Messianic Christianity)

Messianic Diversity in Unity.

This would allow for both those who are more adherent to Torah and those with a more NT view of Torah through Grace.

 

[anisavta]

Dear, i am sorry for being dense, but would you kindly elaborate - Whats the objective of the additional names? To prevent some fights and make it easier to moderate, make the conversation run smoother, etc? .. if so, i am all for it, whatever is decided, great, i like "Hebrew Christian".

But if its just for "religious vanity"... then no, i, for one, would be against it.

We have one or two who want to define Messianic Judaism for us all. This is a way that we can label ourselves instead of having the one or two do it for us. Lets face it - forums are a breed all there own and since we want to stay as anonymous as we can - we need something to identify by.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Messianic Diversity in Unity.

This would allow for both those who are more adherent to Torah and those with a more NT view of Torah through Grace.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Messianic Diversity in Unity.

This would allow for both those who are more adherent to Torah and those with a more NT view of Torah through Grace.

We can call it the "MDU"! Who knows?....it might start a whole new organization of Messianic love and fellowship!

 

[Lulav]

I don't want to call it grafted in though, let's think of a broader term.....like messianic believer maybe?
And the Torah scroll could be messianic Torah keeper?

The cross with the mogen david being Hebrew Christian seems to be well received too

Thoughts on these names?

And what would those who are Messianic Jews use?

You have a Grafted in labeled Messianic believer, which is fine for Gentiles to use, as they are those grafted in.

You have the Magen David with the cross (something that I know some Jews object to and it's actually something used by Messianic gentiles as well) for Hebrew Christian which I don't think many will use.

And the Torah for Torah keepers either Jew or Gentile.

This sounds fine except that those in Messianic Judaism would be forced to use the Torah even if they don't keep it.

What I don't understand is how this is different then what I suggested about having three forums.

One for those in Messianic Judaism (as defined by the MJAA) as an outreach for Jews. "This would be for Jews in MJ and Gentiles who are a part of it'

One for Torah Keepers, those Jews and Gentiles who believe in Keeping the Torah not as a cultural thing but out of obedience.

One for General Messianic. Now each would have to go by the CF general rules so ones really off the wall would be watched, but we have had those in this forum who have been two house, Ephramite and more. They have gotten chased out because this was strictly in flavor of Messianism.


As you can see by this list there are many levels and 'flavors' of Messianics

Chosen People Ministries 1894 by Leopold Cohn
Chosen People Ministries, formerly known as the American Board of Missions to the Jews, is an organization founded in 1894 by Leopold Cohn as the Brownsville Mission to Jews. It purpose is to convince Jews that worship of Jesus is compatible with Judaism. It currently focuses on the production of evangelistic material, geared towards converting Jews and material which links aspects of the Torah as the PassoverSeder with Jesus. They also plant Messianic Synagogues throughout the world.

Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) 1915 Formerly known as Hebrew Christian Alliance of America, MJAA renamed itself in 1975 to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America to change tactics in evangelism and to coincide with terminology changes in the wider movement.

International Federation of Messianic Jews 1978 IFMJ claims to be the only association of Messianic Sephardic Jews in the world, with member congregations in Argentina, Brazil, France, Israel, Mexico, and the USA. The website notes they are independent of any Christian organization.

Messianic Bureau International (MBI) 1994, by David Hargis

A Messianic Jewish Association for establishing and chartering congregations and ministries, and training and certifying Messianic rabbis and ministers

Word of Messiah Ministries 1996
Word of Messiah Ministries provides training to develop Messianic leaders for evangelism, disciple making, and congregation planting among the Jewish people around the world. This work results in more and better Messianic congregations, and Messianic leaders in the worldwide Messianic movement.

Messianic Israel Alliance 1999
An organization of over 130 Messianic congregations and ministries.

Association of Messianic Congregations (AMC) 2003

The Association of Messianic Congregations provides resources, teaching and fellowship that promote Biblical values, proclaims personal faith in Yeshua as the one Atonement for all humanity, and encourages worship through the diversity of Jewish expressions of faith. It is led by a board of directors.

Atlantic Messianic Alliance of America (AMAA) [9] 2008
AMAA is a training group and organization that trains and develops Messianic leaders for evangelism. AMAA closely aligns itself with Nazarene Messianic Judaism.

United Messianic Jewish Alliance (UMJA) 2009
A united alliance of congregations pursuing a Messianic Torah centered life. The UMJA is co-led by its Beit Din Spokane, Washington Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship (SBMF) Messianic Synagogues, Congregations and Fellowships who have chosen to affiliate with the Southern Baptist Convention for mutual support.

Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
Cooperating congregations focused on relational unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Messiah.

As you can see, most of these have come about in the last 10-15 years. This means that there isn't one umbrella such as the MJAA that all fall under.

I've left out Jews for Jesus, and lots more, but as you can see there are many.

What we have to realize is that since there are a variety of beliefs, and still not that many spread out congregations, many come here to fellowship and to discuss their beliefs. One may find a group that fits their beliefs but they are far far away. Then you may have a congregation in your very own town, may even be down the street, yet their beliefs don't match your own or they have changed their beliefs over the years.

What I get from those I've listed above, the main differences are the focus.
Some are focused more on evangelism, others while evangelism is important seek to find G-ds will in their daily lives and how we should follow his instructions, not for salvation, but for sanctification.

Some concentrate on training Rabbi's or ministers.

Some are focused on bringing Jews and Gentiles together, and cooperate with Christian organizations like the Road to Jerusalem to do so.

There is also the Jerusalem Council, which advertises itself as 'Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua'.

There is CTOMC - Coalition of Torah Observant Messianic Congregations which I'm sure you are familiar with.

There is the OMJRA which is the 'Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbincal "Association'

This is how they see MJ

Unfortunately, the word messianic has changed from its historical meaning. Historically this word was synonymous with Judaism in that Judaism was and is forever linked with the belief in a redemptive messiah.


Recent years have seen the term messianic become less Jewish and more Christian in its definition. As a result the term messianic has been redefined in a way that has removed the term from the realm of Jewish thought and brought it into the realm of Christian Theology.

The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word to its historical & traditional meaning. Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-Observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah Observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

When this forum was first designed (I joined a few months afterwards) it was because there weren't many places on the net for Mj believers to gather. Thus one heading was good for all.

But as you can see, in the past ten years or so, MJ has been changing radically and we have to accept this here or only be defined as an MJAA off site forum.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We can call it the "MDU"! Who knows?....it might start a whole new organization of Messianic love and fellowship!

"MDU" sounds like an agency of the government

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Love Chosen People, specifically Lawrence Hirsh in the work he has done with them over the years...

 

[Tishri1]

If it is decided already, what was the point of asking for name suggestions and 'thoughts'?

Give some ideas then. I'm waiting

 

[Avodat]

Give some ideas then. I'm waiting

I did but you said, in reply, that it will be what you wanted it to be, hence my response.

 

[Desert Rose]

We have one or two who want to define Messianic Judaism for us all. This is a way that we can label ourselves instead of having the one or two do it for us. Lets face it - forums are a breed all there own and since we want to stay as anonymous as we can - we need something to identify by.

thanks, got it.

 

[Tishri1]

Dear, i am sorry for being dense, but would you kindly elaborate - Whats the objective of the additional names? To prevent some fights and make it easier to moderate, make the conversation run smoother, etc? .. if so, i am all for it, whatever is decided, great, i like "Hebrew Christian".

But if its just for "religious vanity"... then no, i, for one, would be against it.

No it's not that!
the request that came in was sincere

 

[Tishri1]

Just wondering where the mantra often put forward by Mods - that we do not judge people by their icon but by the content of their posts - fits into this thread?

Easy some MJ folks want something besides a Torah Scroll to identify by, and like I said its a beautiful icon that I didn't think we could get, but I guess we can

 

[Tishri1]

I did but you said, in reply, that it will be what you wanted it to be, hence my response.

Repost your suggestion please