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New faith icon for MJ need help with the name

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Tishri1, Mar 24, 2012.

Picking a name

  1. Call it MJ-my definition is listed in my thread post

  2. Call it Hebrew Christian

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
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  1. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
    Messianic
    Married
    Im making a poll
    I just need to know what those who would use this icon prefer...:thumbsup:

    Should it be called a Hebrew Christian icon
    Or an MJ icon
    And if MJ what should the description be to distinguish it from the Torah scroll?

    http://symboldictionary.net/?p=2205
     
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  2. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
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    [​IMG]
     
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    +1,185
    Oriental Orthodox
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    Beautiful picture. Really seems rather cool....and with the New Icon, would there be room to keep their own description? Like a header they could make up?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  4. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

    +278
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    I've used that icon for years. It is almost universally known among those who are involved in MJ, and it's genuine - having been found in a very basic form in Jerusalem scratched on many different everyday items dating back to the 1st century I think it was.

    It would be good to replace the scroll icon with this one. The scroll lends itself to being misunderstood as a sign relating to Torah observance. It could then be used by those MJ who want to make it clear they are Torah observant on our threads

    If you give it a title other than MJ it will cause a lot of confusion within the movement.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  5. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

    +347
    Messianic
    Married
    Hey Tish,

    Is this to be used to help distinguish the Torah observant from the non-Torah observant? If so, which would use the new icon?
     
  6. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    +266
    The first seals used five point stars, not six.
     
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    +1,185
    Oriental Orthodox
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    Indeed, it is a wonderful icon. I think I've seen similar before, although I didn't pay much attention to it since most MJish places seem to use the Menorah or another symbol. But the new icon is more complete, showing the unity between Judaism, Christianity and the Love for Israel (i.e. Star of David, The Fish Symbol used in the Early Church, and the Menorah symbolic of the TREE of Life).
    I think the issue with the scroll icon is that most seeing it automatically assume (As Tishri noted) that all others are on the same level of Observance as they are. Observance, of course, was never the issue since all here are of the mindset (to my knowledge) that Torah is precious/should be observed.

    Some of what I'm noting is in regards to what was said before in another thread ( #116 #125 , #129 and #135 ) when suggestions were given for mini-titles others could have to distinguish where they were at in their own walks with the Lord...one of the names I suggested concerning those with a Ruth-Like calling being taken up by another member.

    I think the only real issue is that many using it would be confused as supporting the Church, in regards to the Fish symbol that was often used in support of it. For those that have been vehemently against it as opposed to others who're Bridge Builders between the Church and Jewish culture, things could be misunderstood. The Torah scroll would seem more appropriate, IMHO, on those who say their sole focus is observance of Torah....

    You misunderstand me, IMHO, as I was thinking of a title in the form of the mini self-descriptions others give themselves...
     
  8. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

    +278
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    a) That is what I was sort of suggesting.

    b) I was not relating my post to anything you had said. I think the need for a few words could be covered by our signature area, if we wish to do it (I do not because most people know who / what I am since I gave that ill advised testimony).


    In general I am not sure people would 'see' the fish immediately. I have the symbol as a 9 inch high logo on a part of what I wear for very special ecumenical occasions (normally I don't even bother with a 'dog collar - they are horrible things) and people tend to see the Menorah, mostly, at first glance. Some will see the Menorah & Star but I've had very few comment on the fact that a fish is there! Messianics will obviously see all three components. Some have asked whether it relates to Old and New Testaments - because they fail to see the Star in the middle!
     
  9. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

    +6,741
    United States
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    I don't think this is to be used to replace the Torah scroll.

    As far as the OP, Tish, I will tell you something I remember from awhile back. When this was first discovered, (I have the book) it was believed to have maybe have been a symbol for the early believers (Jewish). I think we have gone through this discussion before.

    Later on this was marketed by Gentiles as the 'grafted in' symbol. I don't see as how this is so but that is what brought a lot of bucks in for those selling it as such.

    I recall hearing when selling my art at a MJ Convention where I had this symbol on something that this wasn't for Jews as it was referred to as the Grafted in symbol (I was not calling it that but others were and this is the best well known name nowadays for it) and she as a Jewish believer was not 'Grafted in'. I think you will find that sentiment across the board.

    I also don't think for Hebrew Christians to have this would go down well either. I would not use it.

    Perhaps those that don't want to use the Scroll as their torah observance is limited would want this but why are we kowtowing to only a few or only one that I know of that needs to have their own icon?

    I don't understand the purpose of having another icon, if that could be included in the OP then maybe we can help with this. ??:)
     
  10. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

    +278
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    I hesitate to post in response since I mostly get shot for bothering (that is metaphorically speaking of course). But would you please enlarge on this section? How do you know it is only a few from all posters - the OP is not very old? Which one person have you in mind? I was going to ask if you had an objection to Romans 11:17 but then I remembered who the author was.
     
  11. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
    Messianic
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    Not sure what you mean but all the icon have titles have you seen the list....I thought they all did:thumbsup:
     
  12. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
    Messianic
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    It could be yes

    we would need a description for both if we did that, any one like that idea? Got any ideas?:thumbsup:
     
  13. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
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    Well that's why I want input,

    if we open it up for folks who support Israel it will be another Christian icon and fellowship posts only in here,

    but I do see it used for less Torah observant folks as well and then we will have some leeway on debate in MJ as we will have clues when entering threads started by folks with Torah icons or with this new icon.....folks will know when to behave,


    but I don't want it to just be about that either if that makes since, many folks could use it too because it's so descript and speaks to so many....


    should MJ grab it before others grab it?
     
  14. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

    +6,741
    United States
    Messianic
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    I still don't understand what's going on.

    Is this already a done deal, this symbol is being added and you want to know who wants to use it?

    If it is being added what is it's purpose?

    The link you posted says this

    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The “Messianic Seal,” has been adopted as an emblem of the Messianic Christian movement.* It consists of a fish emblem, or vesica pisces, surmounted by a Magen David, and topped with a Menorah. The original was patterned after emblems found on a number of artifacts believed to have been used by first century Jewish followers of Christ.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*”Messianic” religious groups are Christian groups who adopt certain Jewish practices in an attempt to practice an earlier, purer, form of Christianity, and often focus [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] (usually unsuccessfully) [/FONT]on converting Jews to Christianity, a practice considered highly offensive by many followers of Judaism.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
     
  15. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
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    The link was to the pic, as I just got this iPad and still couldn't figure out how to post pics

    but then I figured out:thumbsup:
     
  16. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    How about the Torah scroll be kept for 'Torah Keepers' that would allow for both Jew and Gentiles to both use it without constant objections from certain camps.

    Hebrew Christian would be only for Jews so that should be out.
     
  17. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    No prob. I knew what it was, someone else posted it. But the definitions attached to it, like I said I've seen believing Jews say it is not for them, so it can't represent either "Hebrew Christians' or Messianic Jews. ;)
     
  18. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
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    When folks request icons I try to stay out of the process unless what they are requesting doesn't look like something we can deliver or looks off for some reason,

    this symbol has been suggested lots of times by both MJs and by Christians who support Israel.

    I honestly didn't think we could get it and yesterday Pauler told me we could.
     
  19. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
    Messianic
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    We might be able to wing it:thumbsup:

    Ohhhhh but it's a CO icon:( it would only work for you guys

    But the idea of the name is a good one.....and what to call the other icon?
     
  20. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,101
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    I think it can represent either group:thumbsup: but since we have this thread I guess we get to decide^_^

    Like I said both groups have asked for it in the past few years, I just didn't think it was doable:thumbsup:
     
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