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New English translation?

Discussion in 'St. Athanasius Chapel and Reference Library' started by MichaelBurk, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. MichaelBurk

    MichaelBurk Newbie

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    Is there a new English translation of the Greek New testament by an Orthodox priest named Fr. Hart?

    And does anyone have a copy?

    I'd be interested to know how he translates James 1:7 and Luke 6:30, as I'm not sure I've ever understood either passage.

    Can "παντὶ δὲ τῷ αἰτοῦντί σε δίδου, καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἴροντος τὰ σὰ μὴ ἀπαίτει" only mean give to every single individual who asks you?

    And does αἰτείτω δὲ ἐν πίστει, μηδὲν διακρινόμενος· ὁ γὰρ διακρινόμενος ἔοικε κλύδωνι θαλάσσης ἀνεμιζομένῳ καὶ ριπιζομένῳ. μὴ γὰρ οἰέσθω ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἐκεῖνος ὅτι λήψεταί τι παρὰ τοῦ Κυρίου mean that a man might as well not bother praying if he has any doubts?

    Can anyone who's able to read and understand New Testament Greek offer any insights into these passages?

    And do any of you know how Fr. Hart translated them?
     
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  2. HoleyHermit

    HoleyHermit Member

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    David Bentley Hart did a translation. He is not a priest. I don’t have a copy.
     
  3. Phronema

    Phronema Well-Known Member Supporter

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  4. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    his translation isn't worth the effort to flip through it.
     
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  5. MichaelBurk

    MichaelBurk Newbie

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    If this David Bentley Hart isn't an Orthodox priest, did someone else named Hart, who took holy orders in an Orthodox jurisdiction, do a translation of the New Testament recently?

    I happen to know (from a priest) that there are three brothers named Hart, and they all became priests, and they all belong to different communions. One is Orthodox, one is Anglican, and one is Roman Catholic. And I know that one of them published a translation of the New Testament because I read about it in a publication my priest subscribes to.

    It's a political/religious publication, and I think it's a Roman Catholic, and I think it's called "First Things First" (or something like that.)

    I'm at work now, but I know I have some back issues back at the apartment somewhere, and I first read about this translation in one of them.

    Could it be some other Fr. Hart?

    Anyway, I'm really much more interested in a better understanding of those two passages I cited, and I wonder if I'm missing anything in English.

    Can any of you give me any helpful insights into the Greek texts that might make their meaning any clearer?
     
  6. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    the only David Hart I heard of is the layman. I can't say enough how bad his translation is.

    and yes, I read it
     
  7. Phronema

    Phronema Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You may be thinking of David Bentley Hart's brother Addison Hodges Hart. Apparently he was at one time Anglican, and Roman Catholic, with David Bentley Hart identifying as Orthodox. Here is the link you may be thinking of from "First Things".

    The Gospel According to David Bentley | Paul V. Mankowski

    Edit: As for translating the passages of scripture you're referring to, I'm definitely not the one to ask, though maybe Fr. Matt or someone who knows more would be able to help.
     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    DBH routinely gets the OT references wrong and does mistranslate the Greek. so not only does his translation not assume dogma, which is stupid, but doesn't assume an OT or Greek translation either.
     
  9. MichaelBurk

    MichaelBurk Newbie

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    Thank you.

    Does anyone know if any of the early Greek speaking fathers (like John Chrysostom, perhaps) recorded his understanding of what Christ meant by παντὶ δὲ τῷ αἰτοῦντί σε δίδου, καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἴροντος τὰ σὰ μὴ ἀπαίτει?

    P.S. I'm getting Hart's translation on interlibrary loan, but I would like to know how Fr. Matt would translate it. And what the early church fathers said.
     
  10. Phronema

    Phronema Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're welcome.

    I've seen homilies done by St. John Chrysostom on St. John's Gospel, but not on that of St. Luke, or St. James, and I don't see any listed in the complete works of St. John Chrysostom I have, though that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    I can pass along though while the Orthodox Study Bible might not give much on the actual translation of the Greek, it does reference James 1:6-8, and the individuals who have written the footnotes are Orthodox clergy. Also, I think James 1:7 is wholly dependent on the other 2 verses, and so this footnote may be helpful. Here is what the OSB has on those particular verses.

    "James 1:6-8. Prayer as petition is effective when it is done in faith, with no doubting (v.6). We need an unquestioning loyalty to God along with the confidence that comes from a life stable in all its ways (v.8). While James teaches the necessity of works, for him works demonstrate a living faith. By contrast, doubting (v.6) means questioning God. Double-mindedness (v.8) speaks of one who has two loyalties, love of the world competing with love for God (see Mt 6:24). Such unstable life deadens our conscience and turns us aside from the truth."

    Also, the boldening, and italics are theirs, not mine. As for the verse from Luke 6:30 the OSB mentions nothing in the footnotes on it or the others around it, and so I'm not sure. I have my own assumptions, but I'd rather not mention them as I may not be correct.

    @ArmyMatt Father, any input on Luke 6:30, please?
     
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    gimme a bit to rummage through the commentaries I have
     
  12. Phronema

    Phronema Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for your help.

     
  13. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no problem
     
  14. MichaelBurk

    MichaelBurk Newbie

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    Hello all.

    I just found something I was thinking of when I posted the question on Luke 6:30.

    But I don't really understand it.

    Could someone please tell me what it means, and how it applies here (if it does)?

    [When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]
    Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

    In Luke 6:30, the word παντὶ modifies is αἰτοῦντί, and there's no definite article in front of it, so what does "straightforward intensive" mean?

    Does it mean no exceptions?

    Every indidual who asks without exception?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  15. MichaelBurk

    MichaelBurk Newbie

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    I'm sorry.

    And I misspoke when I said there was no definite article on front of αἰτοῦντί.

    If I had looked at the text I pasted here I might have noticed there was a definite article, but that Bible hub page offers more than one Greek text, there appears to be some textual variation, and I was looking at a text with no definite article before αἰτοῦντί when I posted my reply.

    But what significance does the definite article have here?

    The context seems to be how we're to treat enemies.

    If the definite article (τῷ) belongs before αἰτοῦντί, would the meaning be that we're to give to friend and enemy alike (but not necessarily to every single individual)?

    And would the emphasis be more on every single individual without the definite article?
     
  16. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I am not sure, but if you're looking for single words to guide theology - I would just say be careful. Sometimes it does matter - and greatly. The Logos is God / the Logos is a god / the Logos is the God - would all have very profoundly different meanings.

    But this one - give to everyone who asks ... I think we need to ask does it matter? If there are "no exceptions" I mean. Basically we know we are to be generous. Other places in Scripture it does qualify - if we are able to give to someone. Not to mention we must be wise. If someone asked for our gardening implement while we are working - intending to use it to bash someone - then of course we don't hand it to him.

    I'm not trying to criticize you, but sometimes we must look at the tiny actual words to get deep insights - and other times trying to do so will just obscure the real message and confuse us or lead us into legalism.

    Someone wiser than me can say one way or another, but that's my first concern with examining this text in that way.
     
  17. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    And I forgot to say but ... not knowing which texts were considered, I don't know if this point applies or not - but if the ancient text DOES vary and is accepted by the Church either way - that's probably a good clue that the basic meaning is what matters and that tiny difference is not what we should be focusing on.
     
  18. HardHead

    HardHead Active Member Supporter

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    These translations may help with some additional verses acting to provide some context.

    27 "But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. (Luke 6:27-36, NRSV)

    2 My brothers and sisters, you will face all kinds of trouble. When you do, think of it as pure joy. 3 Your faith will be put to the test. You know that when that happens it will produce in you the strength to continue. 4 The strength to keep going must be allowed to finish its work. Then you will be all you should be. You will have everything you need. 5 If any of you need wisdom, ask God for it. He will give it to you. God gives freely to everyone. He doesn't find fault. 6 But when you ask, you must believe. You must not doubt. People who doubt are like waves of the sea. The wind blows and tosses them around. 7 A man like that shouldn't expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 He can't make up his mind. He can never decide what to do. (James 1:2-8, NIrV)
     
  19. RobNJ

    RobNJ CF Olde Pharte

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    HOLY THREAD NECROMANCY, BATMAN!!


    ItsAlive.jpg


    BTW... When I was a catechumen, my Priest specifically said to avoid the NRSV (The RSV, with apocrypha was preferable)
     
  20. HardHead

    HardHead Active Member Supporter

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    Walken rocks. Does he still have the watch from Pup Fiction? I wonder where he keeps it.

    I started with an RSV with apocrypha as well. I don't like the old-style language in it. This is why I prefer an NRSV with an apocrypha.I simply like the NRSV , there is not much more to it than that for me.

    If I need an RSV for some reason, all I do is lean over and pick it up off of my shelf that is about one meter away from where I usually read. Its next to my ESV which I hardly ever open.

    I don't claim its right or correct in some way to use an NRSV except for me personally. I'm also not trying to push it on anyone. My necromantic post was not meant to do that.

    Note that I don't have any bible-baggage relative to translations etc. since I am relatively new to Christianity. I did not grow up hearing KJV or any other scriptures for the most part, so 'people' vs' men' is just fine by me. The rest is in the footnotes.

    I agree with what you said. Consult with your priest regarding what is appropriate for you and get a bible you actually want to read.
     
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