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Featured New Earth Creationism: Using Time Dilation to Reconcile the Biblical and Observed Timescales

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Bryar Kader, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    So I am brand new to the forum and I specifically joined so I could test this idea I have been developing for the past year. If I am way off base or if what I am saying sounds ridiculous, please let me know, but I think I may have an answer to why the time scales observable science and the bible are so out of sync, with one giving a universal age of ~14 Gy and the other an age of 6,000 yrs.
    To begin, I must describe the phenomenon of time dilation for those of you who may not be familiar with it. Basically, when an object approaches light speed or approaches a massive object like a black hole, that object’s experience of time slows down in comparison with that of any outside observer. I am not a physicist, so again, if I am off base, please correct me. We can garner from scripture that the Almighty’s experience of time is different from our own current experience (Psalm 90:4) and that He is a being of light (1 John 1:5). When man was first created, he lived with the Almighty in the Garden of Eden, where he walked with, talked with, and interacted with Him on a daily basis (Genesis 2&3). This would indicate God and man shared a common experience in the Garden and therefore a common experience in the passage of time. Even after the Fall of Man in Genesis 3, a chapter later we learn that mankind still existed in the Lord’s Presence, as evidenced by Cain leaving the face and presence of the Lord when leaving the Land of Eden in Genesis 4. One could therefore make the argument that when one dwells in God’s presence, one’s experience of the passage of time would be the same as God’s experience, and therefore may be different from the experience of those outside of that presence.
    To keep myself from rambling, I will summarize this idea and hopefully with discussion the various other facets of it will come to light. In essence, God created the Heavens and the Earth as one, with the Angels, Adam and Eve, and the animals to inhabit it, as described in Genesis 2 and 3 and alluded to in Ezekiel 28 and Job 38:4-7. After the Fall, the War in Heaven described in Revelation 12 erupted, resulting in the Earth becoming without form and void, as said in Genesis 1:2. God restored the Earth over seven days by His own experience and by the experience of Adam and Eve, as they still dwelt in God’s presence even after the Fall. However, those seven days of restoration would have looked like a time lapse film covering the course of 14 billion years of development till reaching the state of the universe we know and love today.
    Due to the fact that the fall occurred prior to this regeneration, this hypothesis does not violate the “death before the fall” conundrum, even in the case of animal death. It respects observational science and the long ages it infers for the age of the Earth and Cosmos, while also respecting the Biblical seven day creation account.
     
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  2. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Interesting idea but around earth, spacetime doesn’t bend much . You'd age less if you live on an upper floor but we’re talking about a lot less than a nanosecond here. The kind of spacetime changes you’d require would be like those around a black hole and no type of life would survive that gravitational attraction.
     
  3. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    Thank you for the reply! I am not necessarily talking about gravitational time dilation, but velocity time dilation, in that the supreme being in scripture is a being of light and humanity originally existed with Him in a different state than we currently are in.
     
  4. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    That still goes back to E=mc2 . The biggest problem I see with your idea is that we are light not God . Energy = mass x c^2 means that matter and energy are interchangeable . It’s a fancy way of saying that atoms are “solidified” energy , which is what Einstein’s equation really means.

    People say we are stardust and while that’s poetic, it’s actually true. Atoms above hydrogen are mostly formed in stars
     
  5. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    I agree we are made of atoms, and those atoms are clearly made of energy (or “light” so to speak). However, that is speaking of our physical existence in this universe. It speaks nothing to our metaphysical being/experience, of which how we perceive the passage of time is a part. While scripture is being poetic when it states “God is light,” I think it truly captures something deeper regarding His nature. He is timeless as light itself. God cannot age anymore than a beam of light can. His experience of time flow is that of an eternal being, and mankind was originally created to exist and inhabit within the same plane of His experience.
    Also, I would like to make the point that prior to the Fall, with the Heavens and Earth being one, the laws of physics as we understand them today may not have been anything like they are now. Think of our universe as a parallel one to the original perfect created cosmos.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  6. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    This is such an interesting thought, and if I'm following you (which is not a guarantee, haha) then I like it. My question would be, is God subject to time in any form? Pace Augustine, time is created. Or Boethius, God is outside of time. Maybe I misunderstood, so I look forward to any clarification.
     
  7. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Member

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    Observable science doesn't give you a long time. When scientists claim an age of millions and billions of years then it is always based on certain assumptions. You cannot make claims about the far past without assuming that processes have always been the same and - in the case of dating methods - that you know the original concentration of certain elements (which is set to 0). Observable science has shown multiple times that the assumptions made in those dating methods are wrong, but because no other theory allows the long periods of time that are needed for soup-to-man evolution the secular scientists still cling to those dating methods. It has nothing to do with observed facts though.

    If you want to date the earth's (and even universe's) age on process clocks there are about 100 methods to do that. Roughly 95% of those methods give you a very short time, only 5% allow billions of years (which are the radioisotope dating methods).
    Just to give a few examples of other process clocks:
    The measurement of the earth's magnetic field revealed a decrease by half every ~1400 years. The upper limit is therefore 20,000 years. Counting supernova remnants gives evidence for 7,000 years only. Measuring the mud on the ocean's floor leads to an upper limit of 65,000 years. Using the salt in the sea to determine the age will result in a limit of 62 million years (assuming there was no salt in the sea at the beginning), still very far from the claimed 3.5 billion years. The amount of nickel in the oceans limits the age to 9,000 years, sedimentation offers 26,000 years, the earth's population allows claims for 8,000 years, the amount of helium in the atmosphere results in an upper limit of 161,000 years, the life-time of the rings of Saturn allow an age of 18,000 years. Life-time of comets suggests 9,000 years, cooling of the earth's surface leads to a limit of 50 million years and the mississippi delta gives evidence for about 10,000 years.
     
  8. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    Thank you for the feedback! I would more side with the idea that God does experience time, just a different scale than we do. Think about it like this; the moment God decided to create the universe, that decision had to be made in time, as it followed a progression of events (1. the decision was not yet made, 2. God makes the decision to create, 3. God acts on that decision to create and makes the universe). I learned this concept from a video by Dr. William Lane Craig.
     
  9. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    all of these ideas ( note that I didn’t say facts) are from creationist pseudoscience organizations that don’t actually use science. None of them are true! . They all rely on the fact that laymen tend to misunderstand science and misuse science facts.
     
  10. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Member

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    You are quick saying that. I wonder how many scientific books you've read in your life. Read these and we'll talk again:
    E.K. Berner, The Global Water Cycle
    Bryan Gregor, Chemical Cycles in the Evolution of Earth
    Jean Flori, Evolution ou Creation?
    Werner Gitt, Am Anfang war die Information
    David J. Morgan, The Mississippi Delta
    A.W. Mehlert, Another look at the age and history of the Mississippi River
    Seibold and Berger, The Sea Floor
    J.P Riley, Chemical Oceanography
    D.A. Livingstone, Chemical composition of rivers and lakes
    Francis Crick, Life itself
    T.G. Northrop, A Micrometeorite Erosion Model and the Age of Saturn's Rings
    O. Struve, Planets with Rings
    H.S. Slusher, Age of the Cosmos
    Martin Harwit, Astrophysical Concepts
     
  11. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    I am sympathetic to this perspective, I held it for many years prior to my current views taking shape. However, one thing you must understand is that the dating methods used to obtain long ages have a lot more scientific rationale behind them than young earth creationist organizations would lead you to believe. I believe God truly did make the universe in seven days, and I believe for the most part man’s experience on Earth has been under 15,000 years. However, I cannot deny the fact that the universe does indeed look to be 14 Gy old. Instead of finding ways to contradict well grounded, observational science, I have found it much more fruitful to find the intersection of observational science and scripture. I did not come to the worldview I have out of compromising scripture, mind you. I came to it out of recognizing the uncanny similarity between the order of the six days and the order of the development of the universe observational science has put forth.
     
  12. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Thank you for the clarification. I'm kind of surprised that Craig holds that God is subject to time. Nonetheless, if that's the case, then the whole time dialation idea is quite intriguing.
     
  13. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Member

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    What do you mean by "they have a lot more scientific rationale behind them"? Those dating methods rely on the following assumptions and there is no way around it:
    1) We "know" the initial concentrations - no daughter element was present when the rock formed
    2) No decaying element can leave or enter the rock over the years
    3) The decay rate has been constant at any time over the past

    Without these assumptions we could not even use radioisotope dating methods, they are fundamental.

    And what do we actually observe?

    - 1986 Mt. St. Helens lava dome - a rock sample gave K/Argon ages between 0.5 million and 2.8 million years old. Proves that significant Argon was present when the rock was formed. So, assumption 1) is wrong.

    - Sunset Crater, Arizona - the volcano erupted 1065 A.D., lava flows dated by Indian records and tree-rings. Indian artifacts and relics are found within the rocks formed by the eruption. K/Ar method: 210,000-230,000 years old.

    - Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand—the volcano erupted in 1949, 1954, and 1975. Rock samples from the lava flows dated at 0.27–3.5 million years old.

    - Hualalai Volcano, Hawaii—the people on the island watched the rock form during a volcanic eruption in 1801. 12 dates were taken which ranged from 140 million years to 2.96 billion years. The average date was 1.41 billion. If this happens with known rocks, then why could this not also be the case for other dates?

    - Mt. Kilauea, Hawaii—erupted recently (2018). K/Ar method: 21 million years.

    Scientists use Hubble's law to calculate the 14 billion years. What exactly makes you say "the universe seems to be 14 billion years old"?
     
  14. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    Here is a link to part 1 of the videos I mentioned. Hope it clears things up a little more!
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Yes. With Adam walking beside God in the Garden, then this was not our earth as we know it.
    With ribs and serpents and sacred trees.
     
  16. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    I am not even saying radiometric dating techniques are 100% accurate all of the time, and I doubt even the most staunchly old earth geologists would say that. However, if you look at the ages of igneous rock layers relative to one another, it is clear that those layers lowest consistently yield older dates than those near the top. This is completely inconsistent with all such layers being lain down in a singular global flood all at once.
    It makes far more sense that the geological record rather represents the development of the Earth into its present state. The history inferred from the record perfectly align with the order of creation in Genesis 1.
    1) Day 3 begins with the Earth submerged in water; recent evidence indicates the Earth began in a watery state (Meteorite study suggests Earth has always been wet)
    2) God creates the dry land and plant life during Day 3; after the formation of the continents, photosynthetic flora appeared
    3) On Day 4, the sun moon and stars were appointed to mark the seasons and years; after photosynthetic algae proliferated, the Great Oxidation Event occurred, making the atmosphere transparent, and thus the heavenly bodies visible. Also, around this same time, organisms began developing circadian rhythms in response to day-night cycles
    4) Day 5 saw the creation of sea life, flying creatures, and dragons (taninim gedolim); in the fossil record, sea creatures, flying insects, and reptiles (including dinosaurs) appear in that same order.
    5) Finally, on Day 6, mammals and man are created, which is reflected in the fossil record as well
     
  17. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    Again, looking for the intersection between scripture and science is far more profitable than pitting the two against one another.
     
  18. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Member

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    The thing is that they don't. Scientists took samples from two lava flow formations in the Grand Canyon—the Cardenas Basalt and the western Grand Canyon lava flows. Researchers used the most current and accepted techniques, had them analyzed by several unbiased commercial labs that knew nothing of the source rocks. The one on the top repeatedly dated older (by 270 million years up to a billion years) than the one on the bottom.
     
  19. Bryar Kader

    Bryar Kader New Member

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    I would love to see the original article if you have it available.
     
  20. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Member

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