New Davey and Goliath

[KagomeShuko]

ELCA NEWS SERVICE

December 7, 2004

New 'Davey And Goliath' Special To Air On Hallmark Channel
04-231-MRC

CHICAGO (ELCA) -- Hallmark Channel will broadcast "Davey and
Goliath's Snowboard Christmas" -- a new one-hour, stop-motion animation
television special from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
(ELCA) -- on Dec. 19 at noon (ET/PT), with an encore broadcast on Dec. 26
at the same time slot. The program is the first new Davey and Goliath
production in 30 years.
"Through the magic of stop-motion animation, we follow Davey and
Goliath on an exciting snowboarding adventure. During this adventure,
Davey learns some dazzling snowboard maneuvers and some very important
lessons about the real meaning of Christmas, and about understanding and
respect for people who are different than he is," said Kristi S. Bangert,
director for marketing and interpretation, ELCA Department for
Communication.
Davey and Goliath is a classic television series starring Davey
Hansen and his talking dog, Goliath. Aired on commercial television in
the 1960s and 1970s, Davey and Goliath is a property of the ELCA. The
church's mission with Davey and Goliath is to bring "moral and religious
faith-based values to a new generation of children in lively and engaging
ways."
No Davey and Goliath story would be complete without "Davey falling
into trouble, even after being cautioned by Goliath, his faithful
companion and conscience," Bangert said. "Snowboard Christmas is no
exception. Davey messes up big time in this story. Not only does he get
himself into a very dangerous situation, but also his two new friends, Sam
and Yasmeen. Maybe not even Goliath will be able to save the day this
time."
"Davey falling into trouble has been the case for every Davey and
Goliath storyline, as well as the important role Davey's parents play,"
Bangert said. Davey's parents are very secure in their understanding of
God's love for children -- a message illustrated in every episode. The
message is conveyed not only to children but also to adults who learn
about love for fellow human beings, she said.
Snowboard Christmas is the first new Davey and Goliath production in
30 years, which features significant advances in stop-motion animation
technology, said the Rev. Eric C. Shafer, director, ELCA Department for
Communication.
A unique quality to the special is "the theme of oneness among
Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Davey, a Christian, meets Sam, who is
Jewish, and Yasmeen, who is Muslim. It is unique in itself for a church
group to be doing such a production," Shafer said.
"We are very excited about the re-launch of the Davey and Goliath
property, which is now celebrating its 45th anniversary," said Ava Odom
Martin, director for public media, ELCA Department for Communication.
"Baby Boomers, teens and tots will be engaged and find something
appealing with the all-new family special. We are especially excited to
be involved with the Hallmark Channel through Faith and Values Media for
the world premiere broadcast, and we hope that 'Davey and Goliath's
Snowboard Christmas' will be a traditional family favorite for years to
come," Martin said.
Davey and Goliath's Snowboard Christmas was produced by Premavision,
Inc. (Clokey Productions), Los Osos, Calif., and executive produced by the
ELCA. The program is being presented on the Hallmark Channel through
Faith and Values Media.
-----------------------
Too bad that I think we don't have the Hallmark Channel

 

[revjpw]

Quoted from the previous post- "A unique quality to the special is "the theme of oneness among Christianity, Judaism and Islam."

The problem with this is that there is absolutely NO "oneness" among Christians and any non-Christian religion. They are false religions, period. They deny the Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, thus they reject the One true God.
The Athanasian Creed, which is one of our confessions, clearly states, "Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the catholic faith. Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish eternally. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in trinity and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance." Because Judaism and Islam reject Christ, they have "divided the substance" so to speak and therefore do not worship or pray or even recognize the One true God. In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father... being of one substance with the Father." God cannot be divided.

For a "Lutheran" church body to promote such a concept is in direct violation of the Lutheran Confessions, let alone the Scriptures.

It's too bad, too. I enjoyed Davy and Goliath when I was younger, and I always encouraged my own children to watch when it was on. Not any more.

 

[Canadian75]

Because Judaism and Islam reject Christ, they have "divided the substance" so to speak and therefore do not worship or pray or even recognize the One true God. In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father... being of one substance with the Father." God cannot be divided.

So are you saying that since the Jews did not recognize the trinity, then Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, etc. never worshipped the ONE true God?
I have always believed that since God is One and cannot be divided then anyone who worships one God is worshipping the only God. One may not have a proper nature of God, but God is one eternally. You claim Jews and Muslims divide God and then say God cannot be divided, that is a contradiction. Just because one doesn't know God is three persons of one essence is not sufficient to assume they are not praying or worshipping the one and only God. Whether their worship or prayers will be accepted is another issue entirely. None of us can entirely know God and we all have a deficient understanding of who God is (at least until we meet Him).
All Arabic speaking Jews, Muslims and Christians call God Allah, All French Jews, Muslims and Christians call God Dieu, etc. At worst Jews and Muslims are ignorant of the Trinity (either willfully or not) and non-Christian.

 

[KagomeShuko]

Quoted from the previous post- "A unique quality to the special is "the theme of oneness among Christianity, Judaism and Islam."

The problem with this is that there is absolutely NO "oneness" among Christians and any non-Christian religion. They are false religions, period. They deny the Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, thus they reject the One true God.
The Athanasian Creed, which is one of our confessions, clearly states, "Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the catholic faith. Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish eternally. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in trinity and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance." Because Judaism and Islam reject Christ, they have "divided the substance" so to speak and therefore do not worship or pray or even recognize the One true God. In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father... being of one substance with the Father." God cannot be divided.

For a "Lutheran" church body to promote such a concept is in direct violation of the Lutheran Confessions, let alone the Scriptures.

It's too bad, too. I enjoyed Davy and Goliath when I was younger, and I always encouraged my own children to watch when it was on. Not any more.

We may know, from the Bible, that salvation comes from Christ? However, why are we to go around condemning others? The only way to come together is to promote togetherness first. Nobody likes to be condemned and they run away from that treatment. It didn't say Davey and his parents say that all the faiths are correct. I also definitely agree with Canadian about the Jewish part. Just because they don't recognize Jesus as the promised Messiah, they don't worship the one true God??? What were Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc.? You completely disregard them now just because you are Christian?

It also says, "about understanding and respect for people who are different than he is"

Don't judge something before you haven't seen it. It sounds like this special might be good for you, too!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[ChiRho]

Quoted from the previous post- "A unique quality to the special is "the theme of oneness among Christianity, Judaism and Islam."

The problem with this is that there is absolutely NO "oneness" among Christians and any non-Christian religion. They are false religions, period. They deny the Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, thus they reject the One true God.
The Athanasian Creed, which is one of our confessions, clearly states, "Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the catholic faith. Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish eternally. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in trinity and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance." Because Judaism and Islam reject Christ, they have "divided the substance" so to speak and therefore do not worship or pray or even recognize the One true God. In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father... being of one substance with the Father." God cannot be divided.

For a "Lutheran" church body to promote such a concept is in direct violation of the Lutheran Confessions, let alone the Scriptures.

It's too bad, too. I enjoyed Davy and Goliath when I was younger, and I always encouraged my own children to watch when it was on. Not any more.

This is an excellent post that proclaims the Truth of Scripture and our Confessions.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[ChiRho]

So are you saying that since the Jews did not recognize the trinity, then Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, etc. never worshipped the ONE true God? .

Here is the problem. Check your premise. Those who had faith in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament worshipped and believed in the Triune God as He revealed Himself. Even Genesis 1 makes confession of the Third Person in the Trinity by name and a small time later in verse 26 we hear of God being more than one person, yet being One in substance:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

This is just in the first Chapter of Genesis! You will find Triune confession throughout the Old Testament, perhaps a bit more implicit than, but certainly never contrary to, the New Testament.

I have always believed that since God is One and cannot be divided then anyone who worships one God is worshipping the only God. One may not have a proper nature of God, but God is one eternally. You claim Jews and Muslims divide God and then say God cannot be divided, that is a contradiction.

Well, they attempt to divide God and fail, but still succeed in rejecting Him and worshipping a false god.

Just because one doesn't know God is three persons of one essence is not sufficient to assume they are not praying or worshipping the one and only God.

Holy Scripture disagrees with you and so does Church Tradition. This actually shouldnt even be a belief articulated inside the Christian Only part of this site. If you read the rules- which I have become more familiar with as of late (Thanks Rose!)- anything that violates the Nicene Creed does not belong.

Whether their worship or prayers will be accepted is another issue entirely. None of us can entirely know God and we all have a deficient understanding of who God is (at least until we meet Him).

While I do believe that there is much about God that is hidden from us, He has provided a clear revelation of who He is in Jesus Christ. And at least in the Lutheran Church, He meets us- physically- often, in His Holy Supper. Upon receiving the Body and the Blood, we follow in the words of Simeon and join him in confessing of our Lord who has come to us and provided salvation, in the Nunc Dimittis:

Luke 2

"Lord now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy Word. For Mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou hast prepared before the face of all people. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of Thy people Israel."

All Arabic speaking Jews, Muslims and Christians call God Allah, All French Jews, Muslims and Christians call God Dieu, etc. At worst Jews and Muslims are ignorant of the Trinity (either willfully or not) and non-Christian

This is untrue and based on your own understanding of fairness. Anyone who denies Christ, whether it appears innocently or not, and disbelieves in the Promises offered to them- absent of faith in Him, Christ Jesus- is not saved. This is the truth, so instead of encouraging your local disbelieving Muslim or Jew on their current road to Hell, speak to him or her about the Promises of Christ.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[ChiRho]

We may know, from the Bible, that salvation comes from Christ?

All who believe, believe by hearing the Word, and the Word proclaimed rightly.

However, why are we to go around condemning others?

Who told you to condemn others? I agree that we shouldnt attempt to judge another's heart, but please do not avoid speaking of the Law when it is necessary. Christ tells us that faith in Him is the ONLY way and if anyone disbelieves in Him they will perish eternally. Remember never to speak the Law without the Gospel.

The only way to come together is to promote togetherness first.

There is no togetherness with God and false gods. A good starting point for togetherness is to speak of the depth of sinfulness that we are all guilty of-pagans and Christians alike. There is a bond with the ungodly that we can confess loudly! But the difference, that the Christian is spared according to Christ, is rejected by the ungodly and if this belief continues unto death, will be held accountable for their sins and will die endlessly. Those in Christ are forgiven and pardoned.

Nobody likes to be condemned and they run away from that treatment.

Who likes to admit sin? Do Christians? Should we forget the Law to make them feel good now, and let them believe in a false gospel of self-justification?

It didn't say Davey and his parents say that all the faiths are correct.

Certainly it did. There is no "oneness" in pagan religions-those absent of Christ- and Christianity.

A unique quality to the special is "the theme of oneness among
Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Davey, a Christian, meets Sam, who is
Jewish, and Yasmeen, who is Muslim. It is unique in itself for a church
group to be doing such a production," Shafer said.

If everything is true, than nothing is true.

I also definitely agree with Canadian about the Jewish part. Just because they don't recognize Jesus as the promised Messiah, they don't worship the one true God???

Yes. Christ and God cannot be separated. As a Lutheran, you should know this. The Ancient Creeds are part of our Confessions.

What were Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc.?

Believers in the promised Messiah that would save them...the same promise that saves you and that you believe and trust saves them.

You completely disregard them now just because you are Christian?

I dont even understand this question.

It also says, "about understanding and respect for people who are different than he is"

Don't judge something before you haven't seen it. It sounds like this special might be good for you, too!

Respecting your neighbor and trading Truth for unity are two very different things. This special is garbage and shouldnt even be aired, especially by any group calling themselves Lutheran. The re-occuring heresy that everyone worships the same God is disputed and proved false not only by Holy Scripture but throughout the last 2,000 years of the Church.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

Perhaps a closer study with Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions will help you.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Jim47]

Here is the problem. Check your premise. Those who had faith in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament worshipped and believed in the Triune God as He revealed Himself. Even Genesis 1 makes confession of the Third Person in the Trinity by name and a small time later in verse 26 we hear of God being more than one person, yet being One in substance:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

This is just in the first Chapter of Genesis! You will find Triune confession throughout the Old Testament, perhaps a bit more implicit than, but certainly never contrary to, the New Testament.



Well, they attempt to divide God and fail, but still succeed in rejecting Him and worshipping a false god.



Holy Scripture disagrees with you and so does Church Tradition. This actually shouldnt even be a belief articulated inside the Christian Only part of this site. If you read the rules- which I have become more familiar with as of late (Thanks Rose!)- anything that violates the Nicene Creed does not belong.




While I do believe that there is much about God that is hidden from us, He has provided a clear revelation of who He is in Jesus Christ. And at least in the Lutheran Church, He meets us- physically- often, in His Holy Supper. Upon receiving the Body and the Blood, we follow in the words of Simeon and join him in confessing of our Lord who has come to us and provided salvation, in the Nunc Dimittis:

Luke 2

"Lord now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy Word. For Mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou hast prepared before the face of all people. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of Thy people Israel."



This is untrue and based on your own understanding of fairness. Anyone who denies Christ, whether it appears innocently or not, and disbelieves in the Promises offered to them- absent of faith in Him, Christ Jesus- is not saved. This is the truth, so instead of encouraging your local disbelieving Muslim or Jew on their current road to Hell, speak to him or her about the Promises of Christ.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Excellant reply!

While we should always remember to love people of other faiths, is it really love if we do not show them their errors?



Ps 5:9 Not a word from their mouth can be trusted;

their heart is filled with destruction.

Their throat is an open grave;

with their tongue they speak deceit.

Ps 5:10 Declare them guilty, O God!

Let their intrigues be their downfall.

Banish them for their many sins,

for they have rebelled against you.

Ps 5:11 But let all who take refuge in you be glad;

let them ever sing for joy.

Spread your protection over them,

that those who love your name may rejoice in you.

Ps 5:12 For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous;

you surround them with your favor as with a shield.

This why it is so important that we speak to them in truth, not just what the world calls love.

Mt 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I'll be honest...I had never even heard of the thought that the Jews worship a false or different god until I read this on TCCL. Like Canadian, I was under the impression that we worshipped the same God but the Jewish view was distorted, they didn't get the full picture. ChiRho and Recht set me straight. It was a good lesson to learn.

There is no togetherness with God and false gods. A good starting point for togetherness is to speak of the depth of sinfulness that we are all guilty of-pagans and Christians alike. There is a bond with the ungodly that we can confess loudly! But the difference, that the Christian is spared according to Christ, is rejected by the ungodly and if this belief continues unto death, will be held accountable for their sins and will die endlessly. Those in Christ are forgiven and pardoned.

Sometimes you have such a simple but powerfully direct way of putting things. You are correct...this is where the bonds of oneness need to begin. There can be no dispute about our sinfulness.

Peace

Rose

 

[ChiRho]

I'll be honest...I had never even heard of the thought that the Jews worship a false or different god until I read this on TCCL. Like Canadian, I was under the impression that we worshipped the same God but the Jewish view was distorted, they didn't get the full picture. ChiRho and Recht set me straight. It was a good lesson to learn.

[/size][/font]
Sometimes you have such a simple but powerfully direct way of putting things. You are correct...this is where the bonds of oneness need to begin. There can be no dispute about our sinfulness.

Peace

Rose

One time I was working out and listening to a developing conversation around the dumbbell rack between an atheist and a Lutheran Sem. student. The atheist was going on and on about how "exclusionary" Christianity is and "how much better" Christians believe they are. Finally the sem. student, who had had enough, looked straight at him and said "You have no idea what you are talking about. Christianity is the only religion that has total equality. Everyone is equally damned and sinful. There is nothing that separates the mass-murderer or sickest child molestor from me- save the belief that Christ forgives me of my wretchedness- if they also believe than there is no iota of difference. Christianity has nothing to do with the morality of man- that, is a damning illusion- but it deals with the reality, which is the immorality of man and the righteousness of God."

The atheist just sat there trying to comprehend what he said. Sin is our common denominator. I have found that beginning with our sin (especially mine!) not only is the correct way to begin with the ungodly, but also with Modern Evangelica! At my last Thanksgiving, I spent three straight hours in converstation with my family. I felt good for having the opportunity to proclaim Law and Gospel and to educate my family about Lutheranism, but I left saddened with the whole experience, as I finally came head on with many of my suspicions about my family and their very heretical, unsafe, and at times damning, beliefs. Free Will and Sinlessness (Entire Sanctification) is what they hold firmly onto, absolutely refusing to believe in a God that wouldnt allow them to grow. It totally sucked hearing my uncle, whom I respect, go on about how he doesnt remember the last time he sinned and that I have a sick and twisted understanding of life and Scriptures. To them, the bible, is nothing more than a book of morals that speak of the greatness we achieve. Got alot of, "Oh, yes, you are supposed to repent, but you cant sin again!" "Jason, if I repented, and then sinned again, I wouldnt be a Christian!" "If you have sin in your life then you are going to Hell!"

Uggh! I felt ill. Much sicker than I was this weekend!

Oh, Holy and Just Judge, forgive me of my sins and I pray that You visit my family and reveal, by your Word, Your forgiveness offered to us by Your One and Only Son. Amen.

Remember one thing kids:

"Pietism Bad!"

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[SPALATIN]

One time I was working out and listening to a developing conversation around the dumbbell rack between an atheist and a Lutheran Sem. student. The atheist was going on and on about how "exclusionary" Christianity is and "how much better" Christians believe they are. Finally the sem. student, who had had enough, looked straight at him and said "You have no idea what you are talking about. Christianity is the only religion that has total equality. Everyone is equally damned and sinful. There is nothing that separates the mass-murderer or sickest child molestor from me- save the belief that Christ forgives me of my wretchedness- if they also believe than there is no iota of difference. Christianity has nothing to do with the morality of man- that, is a damning illusion- but it deals with the reality, which is the immorality of man and the righteousness of God."

The atheist just sat there trying to comprehend what he said. Sin is our common denominator. I have found that beginning with our sin (especially mine!) not only is the correct way to begin with the ungodly, but also with Modern Evangelica! At my last Thanksgiving, I spent three straight hours in converstation with my family. I felt good for having the opportunity to proclaim Law and Gospel and to educate my family about Lutheranism, but I left saddened with the whole experience, as I finally came head on with many of my suspicions about my family and their very heretical, unsafe, and at times damning, beliefs. Free Will and Sinlessness (Entire Sanctification) is what they hold firmly onto, absolutely refusing to believe in a God that wouldnt allow them to grow. It totally sucked hearing my uncle, whom I respect, go on about how he doesnt remember the last time he sinned and that I have a sick and twisted understanding of life and Scriptures. To them, the bible, is nothing more than a book of morals that speak of the greatness we achieve. Got alot of, "Oh, yes, you are supposed to repent, but you cant sin again!" "Jason, if I repented, and then sinned again, I wouldnt be a Christian!" "If you have sin in your life then you are going to Hell!"

Uggh! I felt ill. Much sicker than I was this weekend!

Oh, Holy and Just Judge, forgive me of my sins and I pray that You visit my family and reveal, by your Word, Your forgiveness offered to us by Your One and Only Son. Amen.

Remember one thing kids:

"Pietism Bad!"

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

ChiRho,

If they weren't family, Christ would have told you to wipe the dust from your feet as you left. Even then he did tell them to grab the plow and don't look back.

I am sorry for situation you found yourself in and I, too, will pray that he reveal his truth to them.

 

[KagomeShuko]

Sometimes Bridget should not post things at 1am in the morning! LOL

so instead of encouraging your local disbelieving Muslim or Jew on their current road to Hell, speak to him or her about the Promises of Christ

Exactly.

You'll find that
1) I am very much a confessional Lutheran.
2) I am very much ELCA, in a way (let's not talk about some of the other stuff)
3) I'm very much for finding "unity" where unity doesn't really exist (huh??? It makes sense in my mind, I don't know if it makes sense to you), in order to preach the promises of Christ.
4) Because I was once on a road to the whole "fire and brimstone approach" from working with a missionary, I am very cautious to avoid such things. I found what telling people about Christ did, and it works so much better than the other one.

I'll still wait and see if I can even see the Davey and Goliath special. I don't know if I'd like it or not. I don't know if we get the Hallmark channel (yeah, that's how much I pay attention to the television. . .LOL)

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[ChiRho]

3) I'm very much for finding "unity" where unity doesn't really exist (huh??? It makes sense in my mind, I don't know if it makes sense to you), in order to preach the promises of Christ.
4) Because I was once on a road to the whole "fire and brimstone approach" from working with a missionary, I am very cautious to avoid such things. I found what telling people about Christ did, and it works so much better than the other one.

I am not sure what you mean by these. Maybe you could help me understand what you mean?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Canadian75]

Quote:

Just because one doesn't know God is three persons of one essence is not sufficient to assume they are not praying or worshipping the one and only God.

Holy Scripture disagrees with you and so does Church Tradition. This actually shouldnt even be a belief articulated inside the Christian Only part of this site. If you read the rules- which I have become more familiar with as of late (Thanks Rose!)- anything that violates the Nicene Creed does not belong.

First of all I am shocked that anyone who believes that Jews and Muslims worship God cannot state this belief in a Christian forum. I am certainly NOT the only Christian to hold this belief! Secondly, it is fairly commonly debated topic, similar to the debate over infant baptism or evolution or real presence in the sacrament, etc. I never said that their conception of God is correct either. I am in full support of spreading the Good News to non-Christians to enhance their understanding of God and his relationship with us.

Anyone who denies Christ, whether it appears innocently or not, and disbelieves in the Promises offered to them- absent of faith in Him, Christ Jesus- is not saved. This is the truth, so instead of encouraging your local disbelieving Muslim or Jew on their current road to Hell, speak to him or her about the Promises of Christ.

I am not encouraging Jews and Muslims on their road to Hell. I did say that they are ignorant of God's true nature and non-Christian. There is a problem with being non-Christian as you pointed out, but I thought that was self evident and I did not feel the need to go into a great long speech about how non-Christians will be damned. I still believe Jews, Muslims and Christians are all monotheists and worship the same God. I did not at all mean that they will be saved by their worship and particular faith. There are Christians that believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost that will end up in the fires of hell.

You will find Triune confession throughout the Old Testament, perhaps a bit more implicit than, but certainly never contrary to, the New Testament.

We certainly can find evidence for the triune God in the Old Testament, because it is illuminated for us in the New. However, I don't see any evidence that Jewish masses believed in a triune God before Christ. Yes, God revealed Himself over time to us in ways we could understand, but the patriarchs didn't believe in the Trinity as we do. They were saved by thier faith in God as they knew Him and His promises.

Sure, I could be wrong about my position, I'm not perfect. Would it not make more sense to call others to Christ by working with what we have in common as a base to build from? Peter and Paul certainly used this technique in proclaiming the gospel to the Jews. They didn't tell the Jews that they were worshipping a false God. They used the Jewish belief in God and expanded upon it. When they called Jesus the Son of God, they didn't say "He's not the son of your false God," the Jewish masses already knew what God is, they didn't needed to be taught more fully about who He is.

Because I was once on a road to the whole "fire and brimstone approach" from working with a missionary, I am very cautious to avoid such things. I found what telling people about Christ did, and it works so much better than the other one.

I agree. I have read many testamonies of Christian converts from other faiths and they didn't need to be told they were idol worshippers to be convinced of the promises of Christ.

In the following I wish to illustrate my understanding of many faiths one God. I ask God's forgiveness if I do anything to offend him. It is not the most perfect analogy but I hope to get my point across:

Joe, a chemistry professor and Socrates, an ancient greek are both getting a glass of water. They are neighbours and each has a well in their backyard. After grabbing water from their respective wells, they meet at the fence to talk. Joe tells Socrates about how water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Socrates dissagrees and says that water is a basic element (like earth, air and fire) and that there is only "water atoms" in water. Now, Joe has a better understanding of the nature of water than Socrates...but does that mean that Socrates isn't drinking a glass of water?

I was never initially addressing whether or not Jews and Muslims are saved. I was simply stating that there is one God and anyone praying or worshipping God is directing their prayers and worship to that God. An incorrect understanding of God CAN certainly affect one's salvation.

 

[BronxBriar]

CHICAGO (ELCA) -- A unique quality to the special is "the theme of oneness among Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

WOW. Political correctness....am I surprised?

Personally I hope Goliath takes a bite out of whoever is corrupting Davey with this modernist nonsense.

Happy Holidays!

 

[CrossWiseMag]

Bridget,

There's one fundamental difference between today's Jews and the Jews of New Testament times. The Jews of that day had not yet heard of Jesus and rejected Him. There must necessarily have been some time during which Christ was preached, before Jews were considered to have rejected the Triune God. I would contend that this time is long since past. Not that we should not speak Law and Gospel to Jews of today--but the body of Judaism has clearly rejected the newly revealed totality of God in Christ.


Joe, a chemistry professor and Socrates, an ancient greek are both getting a glass of water. They are neighbours and each has a well in their backyard. After grabbing water from their respective wells, they meet at the fence to talk. Joe tells Socrates about how water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Socrates dissagrees and says that water is a basic element (like earth, air and fire) and that there is only "water atoms" in water. Now, Joe has a better understanding of the nature of water than Socrates...but does that mean that Socrates isn't drinking a glass of water?

The Biblical testimony disagrees with your application of this particular story, Bridget. What the Bible says is that Socrates, for the purposes of your illustration, does not have water, but has plenty of hydrogen. The modern position, such as the one in the press release above, would say that Socrates has water--but it's not adequate for him to drink. The Bible says that H2 without O is not H2O.

[size=-1]"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father. Whoever acknowledges
the Son also has the Father. " 1 John 2:23

[/size]No one comes to the Father, but through Me (John 14:6)

If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me (John 5:46).

There is no worship of God -- even inadequate worship -- outside of Christ.

 

[Tetzel]

There are Christians that believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost that will end up in the fires of hell.

Who and why? Doesn't that contradict John 3:16?

 

[Canadian75]

What the Bible says is that Socrates, for the purposes of your illustration, does not have water, but has plenty of hydrogen. The modern position, such as the one in the press release above, would say that Socrates has water--but it's not adequate for him to drink. The Bible says that H2 without O is not H2O.

My analogy was simply used to reflect my belief that God is an objective reality and that our subjective amount of knowledge about God does not affect His reality. I still believe that Christians and non-Christians can pray to God. I never wished to get into a big "who is saved" discussion. I never once thought that one would equate "I believe Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God" with "Thus, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all saved, regardless of Christ." I do not believe that.

anything that violates the Nicene Creed does not belong

The Nicene Creed represents my statement of faith, yet what about Eastern Orthodox Christians who reject a small portion of the Latin Nicene Creed (the filoque)? Are they allowed to post questions on the nature of the Holy Spirit and His relationship to the Father and the Son? I don't see how my post contradicts the Creed. I tried several times to simply express my belief that non-Christians may reject the Trinity, but that doesn't mean they don't worship God. Our belief, right or wrong, about God does not mean He does not hear those who pray to him. He may very well ignore them however.

It is at this point I will agree to disagree with those who oppose my views (or the views of the Lutherans who produce the Davy and Goliath interfaith program). Perhaps in time I will come to another understanding on this issue, or perhaps not. Our knowledge and beliefs change over time and many of them have no impact on our salvation. Whether I believe if non-Christian monotheists and Christians pray to the same God does not make me any less or more of a Christian than anyone else.

I do not wish to antagonize anyone any longer on this issue and I would ask forgiveness from anyone whom I might have offended. Our views may differ, but we are all brothers and sisters in Christ .

Peace, Blessings, and Come Lord Jesus!

 

[SPALATIN]

My analogy was simply used to reflect my belief that God is an objective reality and that our subjective amount of knowledge about God does not affect His reality. I still believe that Christians and non-Christians can pray to God. I never wished to get into a big "who is saved" discussion. I never once thought that one would equate "I believe Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God" with "Thus, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all saved, regardless of Christ." I do not believe that.

The Nicene Creed represents my statement of faith, yet what about Eastern Orthodox Christians who reject a small portion of the Latin Nicene Creed (the filoque)? Are they allowed to post questions on the nature of the Holy Spirit and His relationship to the Father and the Son? I don't see how my post contradicts the Creed. I tried several times to simply express my belief that non-Christians may reject the Trinity, but that doesn't mean they don't worship God. Our belief, right or wrong, about God does not mean He does not hear those who pray to him. He may very well ignore them however.

It is at this point I will agree to disagree with those who oppose my views (or the views of the Lutherans who produce the Davy and Goliath interfaith program). Perhaps in time I will come to another understanding on this issue, or perhaps not. Our knowledge and beliefs change over time and many of them have no impact on our salvation. Whether I believe if non-Christian monotheists and Christians pray to the same God does not make me any less or more of a Christian than anyone else.

I do not wish to antagonize anyone any longer on this issue and I would ask forgiveness from anyone whom I might have offended. Our views may differ, but we are all brothers and sisters in Christ .

Peace, Blessings, and Come Lord Jesus!

Canadian,

You are right we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I don't think it was necessarily to admonish you, but to comment more on the Davey and Goliath episodes about and the disagreements by many in the LCMS. Please don't take it personally. There are many here from other synods including the ELCA who don't agree with some of the things the ELCA has done or is planning to do. They don't take it personally and understand our pov even if they don't agree with us on other subjects.

Perhaps you are unaware of this but, just after the 9/11 disaster there was a Civic event in Yankee Stadium promoted by Oprah Winfrey and Mayor Giuliani where people were asked to come together and pray. Many religions were represented at this event including Christian. Now there would not have been a problem had the LCMS DP David Benke prayed to the Only God, but he didn't he prayed to the Unionistic God. The God of Jews, Muslims and Christians. This has literally torn our synod apart.

By Davey and Goliath perpetuating this same kind of Syncretistic and Unionistic message in the cartoon they are advocating what Pastor Benke did. So the arguments you are hearing are from those who see this issue being played out in this cartoon are in effect speaking out about Unionism, which the Bible clearly says is wrong.

I remember the Davey and Goliath from 30 years ago and they were pretty good cartoons. They were made popular again by the Mountain Dew commercial a couple of years back. If they went back and made the kind of shows they did without this syncretistic message they would be all fine and dandy, but perpetuating this only brings up these wounds that divide us in the LCMS.

 

[KagomeShuko]

By Davey and Goliath perpetuating this same kind of Syncretistic and Unionistic message in the cartoon they are advocating what Pastor Benke did. So the arguments you are hearing are from those who see this issue being played out in this cartoon are in effect speaking out about Unionism, which the Bible clearly says is wrong.

I remember the Davey and Goliath from 30 years ago and they were pretty good cartoons. They were made popular again by the Mountain Dew commercial a couple of years back. If they went back and made the kind of shows they did without this syncretistic message they would be all fine and dandy, but perpetuating this only brings up these wounds that divide us in the LCMS.

I like the old cartoons. They run on our TBN station. I'd still watch the new one before judging it.

It does belong to the ELCA. . .

You know, I'm not all for everything the ELCA does, but I'm quite ELCA in some ways. . .

Of course, if you are Christian, you ought to pray to the one true triune God!

Stein Auf!
Bridget