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sparow

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I do not know much about the Maccabees may have been Jews but they were not the ones taken into captivity who are part of Daniel's prophesy system; they may be counted with the lost sheep.

Did the Maccabees come to the Jerusalem Temple to cleanse it; was it before the temple was destroyed or was it after it was rebuilt? And by cleansing the temple do you mean they removed trash or performed the annual sprinkling of blood on the mercy seat for the remission of Israel's sins?

How far do you think Jesus went; Jesus said he would be with us always especially when we meet on a Holly day; a Sabbath, the Sabbath or a feast day etc.; heaven is traditionally were the clouds are and is the hemisphere they can be seen to form; unless one follows the Talmud or Babylonian astrology.

I had assumed you were a Futurist, Antiochus Epiphanes IV would make you a preterits.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The prophecies of Daniel have to do with the Jews from their captivity on - before and after Christ and the destruction of the temple, and to the second coming. I am not a preterist by any means. But I do apply prophecies where they belong.

Antiochus Epiphanes IV defiled the temple by slaughtering a pig on the altar on December 25, Zeus' birthday. You may have heard of Hanukkah when the little bit of oil in their lamps burned for 8 nights. God did that for the Maccabees. This all had to do with the cleansing of the temple - B.C. Chapter 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy has to do with Jesus, and the temple being destroyed in 70 A.D. The last verse of the prophecy has to do with national Jews and the last 7 years of the world.

Antiochus Epiphanes IV is a foreshadow of the future Antichrist. But the 2,300 evening and morning prophecy equalling 1,150 full days was the length of his reign. Because the days are specified as evenings and mornings, we can determine this to be actual time, not prophetic day/year or day/1000 year as in other prophecies. He was the little horn that grew out of the four generals. Read it:

Chapter 8
8 Therefore the male goat (Greece) grew very great (Alexander the Great); but when he became strong, the large horn was broken (he died), and in place of it four notable ones (his four generals) came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn (Antiochus Epiphanes IV) which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land (Jerusalem and the temple). 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away (Antiochus defiled the altar), and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days (the length of his reign); then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.” (by Maccabees)
 
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faroukfarouk

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Sorry, where does that quote come from, please?
 
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1stcenturylady

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Sorry, where does that quote come from, please?

We are talking about the prophecies in Daniel 8 and 9. He referred to the 2300 day prophecy as being about Jesus, and I just showed him the actual history behind them.
 
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1stcenturylady

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When I was SDA, I was taught that the 2,300 day prophecy was 2,300 years and that Jesus went into the heavenly sanctuary in 1844. They even believed that was going to be the return of Christ. Anyway, when I came out of that denomination, I studied the ancient history behind it. I even read 1 and 2 Maccabees. It is not scripture, but is true history. They are the kind of books you can only stomach once. What Antiochus Epiphanes IV did to the Jews was .... there isn't a word strong enough. And to think he is a foreshadow of the Antichrist! Yikes. I hope I won't live long enough to see him in action.
 
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bugkiller

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You didn't make a very understandable sentence, but I'll reply to what I think you are talking about.

Chapter 11 talks of the grafting of the Gentiles. Into what if not Israel, and not all of Israel, but those who believe in Christ.
The chapter very clearly says graft in among them. It also says very clearly we are graft into the Root, Jesus the Christ. Even the Jew must be graft into the Root. This is done the same way for both Jews and gentiles. Eph 2 says we are fellow citizens with the saints. It does not say we are fellow citizens of Israel or have part of their commonwealth.

bugkiller
 
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1stcenturylady

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You are probably right. Jesus is the root, but Israel is the natural branches from the root, and some were broken off which allowed for the Gentile wild branches to be grafted in.
 
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bugkiller

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The difference between new and old is that the Law is written in persons heart. That is why I think the Law is the same, but the method to receive it, is different. I don’t see what is not true in that, sorry.
Sorry but the law issued to Israel is not what is written on the heart. "Not according to" deals with contents and nothing about place.

bugkiller
 
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1stcenturylady

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You can read it for yourself. Take it any way you want. Does not matter to me except when being taught to others. The reason is the ramifications.

bugkiller

Read my edit to my post.
 
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bugkiller

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You are probably right. Jesus is the root, but Israel is the natural branches from the root, and some were broken off which allowed for the Gentile wild branches to be grafted in.
What were they broken off from and why? How do you read the Gospel of John? I read it is to the whole world. It says nothing about Israel in relation to salvation. The only way to possess salvation in the Gospel of John is through Jesus, the Christ. Jn 3, 5, 10 and 15 can not be more clear on this. There is zero about being part of Israel. The historical facts of Acts is proof.

bugkiller
 
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1stcenturylady

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Do you believe in what is called "replacement theology"?
 
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sparow

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From the SDA you should have gone forward not backward.



I can accept your historical account of Antiochus Epiphanes IV; I am surprised he was a Hellenist Jew; the Maccabees appear to be little better. The Maccabees may have produced the Pharisees. But cleansing the Sanctuary is something only Jesus can do; the OT High Priest could only perform the ritual pointing forward to when Christ would do it. The Jew would have receive immediate benefit but not ultimate salvation. Cleansing the sanctuary may be an unfortunate miss-translation:



Daniel 8:14 (RSV)
14 And he said to him, "For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."



It seems the annual sprinkling of blood on the mercy seat is not called “Cleansing the Sanctuary” in scripture so the Jews must have provided that name themselves.



https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1962/01/the-cleansing-of-the-sanctuary



Daniel 8:17 (RSV)
17 So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was frightened and fell upon my face. But he said to me, "Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end."

Daniel 8:19 (RSV)
19 He said, "Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation; for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.


So even though the prophesy is fulfilled as you say, the prophesy is meant for the time of the end and is expressed there as the king of the north and the king of the south.



But when is the time of the end and when does Daniel become relevant or open. I believe Jesus begins the time of the end; Daniel is the only Christ referred to by name so the book was open at that time; it may have been opened when the command was given to rebuild Jerusalem.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The temple was already cleansed from that defilement before Jesus was even born.
 
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1213

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Sorry but the law issued to Israel is not what is written on the heart. "Not according to" deals with contents and nothing about place.

The law is basically “love your neighbor as yourself”. That is same in OT and in NT. But in NT, it will be in persons heart.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The law is basically “love your neighbor as yourself”. That is same in OT and in NT. But in NT, it will be in persons heart.

Yes, that is half of the eternal law of God, which the Ten C are derived from. The first of the two is "Love God with all your strength, mind and spirit." This is why, instead of the Ten Commandments that showed us our sin, Jesus came to take away our sin so we would not need negative commandments telling us not to do what we have a new nature not to break. The commandments of the New Covenant written on our hearts are to believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another. 1 John 3:23. When we repented and turned AWAY from sin and turned to Christ, Jesus gave us His Own Sinless Spirit, called the Spirit of Christ Romans 8:9. Thus we are now dead to sin. Romans 6:2. And 1 John 3:9
 
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sparow

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The difference between new and old is that the Law is written in persons heart. That is why I think the Law is the same, but the method to receive it, is different. I don’t see what is not true in that, sorry.

AS we see “Not according to” means one thing to the prophet and many things according to whom is interpreting the prophet.

Deuteronomy 6:5-6 (ASV)
5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart;
7 and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

So the greatest commandment is quoted from the OT and it co-exists with the Law and is a component of it; as is the second Great Commandment, taking a bit from here and there.

Deuteronomy 30:10-11 (RSV)
10 if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 "For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
14 But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

The difference between the OC and the NC is not that the commandments are on their hearts but the difference is that they do not have to learn them. And according to Duet 6:6 the NC is not new either, it has happened before.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Then the question becomes, do the Sabbath requirements have to be learned, or are they already on our hearts. Or is it the ETERNAL laws of God that are written there. "Love God with all your strength, mind and spirit, and love your neighbor as yourself. That fits better as the two commandments of Jesus are 1 John 3:23.
 
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