NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL

[pasifika]

Not necessarily, odds are against them being the "same" species statistically speaking.
How Many Olive Varieties Are There and Which Are the Most Popular?
Also why mention "wild" if they truly are the "same"?

"Wild" because is not look after by a Gardener or farmer so to speak..in contrast to a "cultivate tree" which is look after by someone ( Gardener or farmer). But they both called Olive trees.. maybe the one that farm are more desirable and precious then the one one grow in the wild. This is comparison of Gentiles and Israel...

 

[Sophrosyne]

The Creator that grafted me in is the One Who made all trees.


When He says we are grafted into Israel, we bear that same fruit, as it was Created to be. Period.


*Science did not graft me in.

The problem is the Bible itself says Israel was grafted into the tree and if the tree is Israel grafting itself into its own self is illogical and cutting off a branch called Israel when the whole tree is Israel is also illogical too.

 

[Sophrosyne]

"Wild" because is not look after by a Gardener or farmer so to speak..in contrast to a "cultivate tree" which is look after by someone ( Gardener or farmer). But they both called Olive trees.. maybe the one that farm are more desirable and precious then the one one grow in the wild. This is comparison of Gentiles and Israel...

I take it you didn't read the page at the link I provided.

 

[Tone]

The problem is the Bible itself says Israel was grafted into the tree and if the tree is Israel grafting itself into its own self is illogical and cutting off a branch called Israel when the whole tree is Israel is also illogical too.

I can't make heads or tails of your "logic". I think you are being a little to liberal in putting words in my mouth though.

Which I'd appreciate it if you didn't.

 

[Tone]

Not what men can do but what the Bible has provided to us proof of what men have done throughout history due to a fallen nature.

My point is that you are trying to impose a manmade lens (science) onto what the Bible is actually saying.

 

[pasifika]

I take it you didn't read the page at the link I provided.

No I didn't read the link..but it doesn't matter how many Olive varieties they still Olive...it's the same as many cultures, people's, tongues, nations, colours etc but same human race...

 

[Tone]

Romans 11:1
"1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew."


Nuff said.

 

[Sophrosyne]

My point is that you are trying to impose a manmade lens (science) onto what the Bible is actually saying.

Not really...... unless grafting has changed the logic to grafting is the same.

 

[Tone]

Not really...... unless grafting has changed the logic to grafting is the same.

Yeah, well, i'm happy to inform you that logic isn't gonna save anybody!

If you want to compare man's limited capabilities in handling what they haven't created in the first place...have at it.

Like I said before, the One Who made the trees, has grafted me in by His Wisdom, Knowledge, and Understanding.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No I didn't read the link..but it doesn't matter how many Olive varieties they still Olive...it's the same as many cultures, people's, tongues, nations, colours etc but same human race...

So by that logic you just essentially reduced the uniqueness of Israel to zero and irrelevant.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yeah, well, i'm happy to inform you that logic isn't gonna save anybody!

If you want to compare man's limited capabilities in handling what they haven't created in the first place...have at it.

Like I said before, the One Who made the trees, has grafted me in by His Wisdom, Knowledge, and Understanding.

I beg to differ, Paul used logic to win souls in the Bible.

 

[Tone]

I beg to differ, Paul used logic to win souls in the Bible.

No, he used The Logos.

1 Corinthians 1
"23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength."


*Power.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No, he used The Logos.

1 Corinthians 1
"23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength."


*Power.

You forgot when Paul was in a city where they worshipped all sorts of gods and he found one called "the unknown god" Paul logically concluded that Jesus was to them that god and appealed to them through the "unknown god" identity. I contend this was a rather effective use of logic on Paul's part.

 

[Tone]

You forgot when Paul was in a city where they worshipped all sorts of gods and he found one called "the unknown god" Paul logically concluded that Jesus was to them that god and appealed to them through the "unknown god" identity. I contend this was a rather effective use of logic on Paul's part.

Oh, you want another one?

1 Corinthians 2
"4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power."

 

[pasifika]

So by that logic you just essentially reduced the uniqueness of Israel to zero and irrelevant.

Who do you think the cultivate Olive tree is? And do you know that the Olive tree nourish by the sap that comes from the root...so if the root is holy so does the branches...So how can Israel be not unique if the holy One of God is from Israel in his human form..

 

[A.ModerateOne]

"For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16 RSV)

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy." (1Pet 2:9-10 RSV)

From where and to whom are those descriptions in 1 Peter written?

"and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” (Exod 19:6 RSV)
“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth." (Deut 7:6 RSV)
"but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory." (Isa 61:6 RSV)

How are New Covenant Believers described?
"For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, ... But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." (Heb 12:18, 22-24 RSV)

OT prophecies are applied to the New Covenant Assembly of God Israel from all nations

Joel 2:28 applied Acts 2:16, 17
2 Sam 7:12 & Psa. 132:11 applied Acts 2:30, 31 .... not some 1000 years still yet future
Zech. 12:9-10 applied in John 19:36, 37
Amos 9:11,12 applied Acts 15:13-16
Jer. 31:31, 33 applied Heb. 8:1, 4, 6-8
Mal. 4:5, 6 applied Luke 1:17; Matt. 11:13, 14

"And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came afterwards, also proclaimed these days. You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God gave to your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your posterity shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’" (Acts 3:24-25 RSV)

"The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look." (1Pet 1:10-12 RSV)

The matter of grafting has come into the conversation, so try this for an understanding of the difficult passage in Romans 11 -

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

 

[Sophrosyne]

Who do you think the cultivate Olive tree is? And do you know that the Olive tree nourish by the sap that comes from the root...so if the root is holy so does the branches...So how can Israel be not unique if the holy One of God is from Israel in his human form..

If you are going to totally IGNORE the science of grafting then this discussion is over because nothing I will say truly has any meaning to you whatsoever.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Oh, you want another one?

1 Corinthians 2
"4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power."

I'm not discounting faith but there is a lot of logic to what God does and parables Jesus himself spoke were based on simple logic often like the talents where the man who buried his talents made no profit and those who invested it returned profit and logically those who profited were commended. The logic of sowing seeds in good soil vs bad soil. The logic of building your house on firm ground vs sand. Now faith often defies logic but if one understands faith as Christians should there is some logic to it also when you remember that without faith it is impossible to please God and then with faith you can please God and if one thinks logically if God is pleased with you then chances increase that you can have favor with God and things that are undoable logically to man God himself can do.

 

[Davy]

The problem is the Bible itself says Israel was grafted into the tree and if the tree is Israel grafting itself into its own self is illogical and cutting off a branch called Israel when the whole tree is Israel is also illogical too.

You obviously don't understand God's concept of 'Israel'. It's not just about a little ole nation in the middle east filled with Jews. The name Israel is the Salvation name under Christ Jesus. So it's a lot more than just a certain people. It's about God's future Kingdom under His Son, our King of kings, and Lord of lords.

It all began with God's Birthright first given through Abraham.

1. God first gave the Promise by Faith (The Gospel) to Abraham; Abraham believed and God counted to him as righteousness. This is the same Faith we have believed, which is Paul called believers the children of Abraham in Galatians.
2. Other Promises were included to Abraham, a great number of seed, ruling the gates of thy enemies, plenty of corn and wine.
3. God's Birthright then passed to Abraham's son Isaac.
4. The Birthright then passed to Isaac's son Jacob.
5. Jacob wrestled with The Angel of The Lord and prevailed, and demanded a blessing. The Angel gave Jacob a new name, Israel, which means 'to prevail with God's help', i.e., to overcome.
6. The name ISRAEL became the Birthright name from God to represent God's Salvation Promises especially in The Gospel of Jesus Christ which they were to have care of for all nations. God told Jacob "a nation" and "a company of nations" would be of his seed.
7. The Birthright then went to Jacob's son Joseph, who was separated from his brethren in Egypt.
8. Joseph was exalted in Egypt, and had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
9. Jacob blessed Joseph's two sons and said Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations", and Manasseh would also become great.
10. God's Birthright blessing then went to Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today.
11. Because Solomon allowed pagan worship in Israel, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, a 3 tribe kingdom in the south at Jerusalem under Judah, and a 10 tribe kingdom in the north at Samaria under a king born of Ephraim. The two kingdoms had war against each other.
12. The northern "kingdom of Israel" did pagan gold calf idol worship.
13. God brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern kingdom, and took them captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. Only the 3 tribe kingdom of Judah in the south was left in the land.
14. The ten tribes would loose their knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel. They would become as Gentiles, living as Gentiles, and God would scatter them further through the countries.
15. The southern kingdom of Judah would also fall away about 120 years later, and God would bring the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon them, and carry them captive to Babylon for 70 years.
16. After the 70 years, a small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi would return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple, city, and walls. The ten tribes remained beyond Euphrates, but still a very large number. The majority of Judah would choose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years, and be further scattered through the countries as Israel (ten tribes) were.

17. The ten tribes of Israel drop out of history. The Jews loose what happened to them. The Jews (southern kingdom of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, some small remnants of the northern tribes, and the strangers) keep their heritage as Israel, and the holy days and sabbaths.
18. The ten tribes scatter west, through the Caucasus mountains, around the Black Sea, and into Asia Minor and Europe. They keep their false Baal idol worship they fell away for. God leads them into the 'wilderness' of new lands in the West. Each area in Asia Minor and Europe they create cultures each with their own name for their ancient Baal worship. God gives them the full strength of their lovers of Baal.
19. When it is time, The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to them, and they become the Western Christian nations, the fulfillment of the "company of nations" of Jacob, and the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim. They put away their Baal idols, and receive The Gospel. They are the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes).
20. Among scattered Israel, Gentiles believe The Gospel also with them, and they both, together, become Christ's Church. Many of the house of Judah scattered from Babylon also believe on Jesus and become part of His Church in the West.
21. The remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, i.e., the Jews, remain blinded by God to The Gospel, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (and to scattered Israel of course!).

This is why when Apostle Paul said "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2, that's what Christ's Church is, a 'commonwealth' of nations of believers under Christ Jesus. Thus God made use of Israel's rebelliousness in falling to Baal worship.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You obviously don't understand God's concept of 'Israel'. It's not just about a little ole nation in the middle east filled with Jews. The name Israel is the Salvation name under Christ Jesus. So it's a lot more than just a certain people. It's about God's future Kingdom under His Son, our King of kings, and Lord of lords.

It all began with God's Birthright first given through Abraham.

1. God first gave the Promise by Faith (The Gospel) to Abraham; Abraham believed and God counted to him as righteousness. This is the same Faith we have believed, which is Paul called believers the children of Abraham in Galatians.
2. Other Promises were included to Abraham, a great number of seed, ruling the gates of thy enemies, plenty of corn and wine.
3. God's Birthright then passed to Abraham's son Isaac.
4. The Birthright then passed to Isaac's son Jacob.
5. Jacob wrestled with The Angel of The Lord and prevailed, and demanded a blessing. The Angel gave Jacob a new name, Israel, which means 'to prevail with God's help', i.e., to overcome.
6. The name ISRAEL became the Birthright name from God to represent God's Salvation Promises especially in The Gospel of Jesus Christ which they were to have care of for all nations. God told Jacob "a nation" and "a company of nations" would be of his seed.
7. The Birthright then went to Jacob's son Joseph, who was separated from his brethren in Egypt.
8. Joseph was exalted in Egypt, and had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
9. Jacob blessed Joseph's two sons and said Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations", and Manasseh would also become great.
10. God's Birthright blessing then went to Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today.
11. Because Solomon allowed pagan worship in Israel, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, a 3 tribe kingdom in the south at Jerusalem under Judah, and a 10 tribe kingdom in the north at Samaria under a king born of Ephraim. The two kingdoms had war against each other.
12. The northern "kingdom of Israel" did pagan gold calf idol worship.
13. God brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern kingdom, and took them captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. Only the 3 tribe kingdom of Judah in the south was left in the land.
14. The ten tribes would loose their knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel. They would become as Gentiles, living as Gentiles, and God would scatter them further through the countries.
15. The southern kingdom of Judah would also fall away about 120 years later, and God would bring the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon them, and carry them captive to Babylon for 70 years.
16. After the 70 years, a small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi would return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple, city, and walls. The ten tribes remained beyond Euphrates, but still a very large number. The majority of Judah would choose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years, and be further scattered through the countries as Israel (ten tribes) were.

17. The ten tribes of Israel drop out of history. The Jews loose what happened to them. The Jews (southern kingdom of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, some small remnants of the northern tribes, and the strangers) keep their heritage as Israel, and the holy days and sabbaths.
18. The ten tribes scatter west, through the Caucasus mountains, around the Black Sea, and into Asia Minor and Europe. They keep their false Baal idol worship they fell away for. God leads them into the 'wilderness' of new lands in the West. Each area in Asia Minor and Europe they create cultures each with their own name for their ancient Baal worship. God gives them the full strength of their lovers of Baal.
19. When it is time, The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to them, and they become the Western Christian nations, the fulfillment of the "company of nations" of Jacob, and the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim. They put away their Baal idols, and receive The Gospel. They are the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes).
20. Among scattered Israel, Gentiles believe The Gospel also with them, and they both, together, become Christ's Church. Many of the house of Judah scattered from Babylon also believe on Jesus and become part of His Church in the West.
21. The remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, i.e., the Jews, remain blinded by God to The Gospel, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (and to scattered Israel of course!).

This is why when Apostle Paul said "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2, that's what Christ's Church is, a 'commonwealth' of nations of believers under Christ Jesus. Thus God made use of Israel's rebelliousness in falling to Baal worship.

NO. the bride of Christ is no commonwealth or nations nor Israel those are your made up assumptions.
The church has nothing to do with Israel itself as Paul himself expressed that we are neither jew or gentile in Christ thus since Gentiles cannot be of Israel outside of Christ then in Christ we aren't of Israel either.