New California Law Would Ban the Bible

[creslaw]

Over the years I've worked with a lot of survivors of "SOCE" and those survivors come in all sorts of forms and histories and that includes those who walked into "therapy" actually believing the claims the "therapists" made. Sadly these are the ones that end up most damaged by the process.

The outcome of therapy always depends upon the motivation and commitment of the client. For some that will only be managing their same sex feelings so they can live a life congruent with their personal, social & religious goals.

The "damage" caused by therapy is dissatisfied clients looking to place blame rather than accept responsibility. Feelings of guilt & depression, and being less able to accept a gay identity, are not damage - these feelings are a response to trying to live contrary to God's will.

 

[SilverBear]

The outcome of therapy always depends upon the motivation and commitment of the client. For some that will only be managing their same sex feelings so they can live a life congruent with their personal, social & religious goals.

The "damage" caused by therapy is dissatisfied clients looking to place blame rather than accept responsibility. Feelings of guilt & depression, and being less able to accept a gay identity, are not damage - these feelings are a response to trying to live contrary to God's will.

[/QUOTE] Yeah, that is pretty much what ex-gay "therapists" tell people who don't change (which is everyone eventually). If this change doesn't' happen it's your own fault. If only you were a better Christian. If only you really believed in God. If only you REALLY wanted to change.

No combatant therapist would pay such a load of abusive excrement at the feet of the people that come to them for help.

Survivors of ex-gay "therapy" feel guilt and depression for the same reason that any survivor of abuse feels guilt and depression. Because of years of verbal , emotional and physical abuse. Because the abusers blame the people they hurt.

 

[creslaw]

Yeah, that is pretty much what ex-gay "therapists" tell people who don't change (which is everyone eventually). If this change doesn't' happen it's your own fault. If only you were a better Christian. If only you really believed in God. If only you REALLY wanted to change.

No combatant therapist would pay such a load of abusive excrement at the feet of the people that come to them for help.

Survivors of ex-gay "therapy" feel guilt and depression for the same reason that any survivor of abuse feels guilt and depression. Because of years of verbal , emotional and physical abuse. Because the abusers blame the people they hurt.

Your understanding is far too simplistic. You may find some outliers but therapists do not operate in the way you describe.

And you are confusing the depression felt as a result of "years of verbal, emotional and physical abuse", which is valid, with disappointment in the outcome of therapy, which is based on a client's perception that a therapist has a magic wand. This disappointment is expressed by blaming therapy for feeling depressed.

Christian therapists will never deny the possibility of complete deliverance because Jesus Christ is Almighty God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) but they will also point to Paul's "thorn in the flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7-9) as an example of God giving the strength needed to live with an "infirmity".

The attempt to deny people access to therapy is based on an ideology which promotes pride in homosexuality rather than genuine concern for the rights of all.

 

[SilverBear]

Your understanding is far too simplistic. You may find some outliers but therapists do not operate in the way you describe.

And you are confusing the depression felt as a result of "years of verbal, emotional and physical abuse", which is valid, with disappointment in the outcome of therapy, which is based on a client's perception that a therapist has a magic wand. This disappointment is expressed by blaming therapy for feeling depressed.

See my previous post about passing the blame to the client.

Christian therapists will never deny the possibility of complete deliverance because Jesus Christ is Almighty God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) but they will also point to Paul's "thorn in the flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7-9) as an example of God giving the strength needed to live with an "infirmity".

The attempt to deny people access to therapy is based on an ideology which promotes pride in homosexuality rather than genuine concern for the rights of all.

It's the "therapy" based on an ideology that is the problem.

 

[creslaw]

It's the "therapy" based on an ideology that is the problem.

Obviously you are little acquainted with the approach of most currently practising therapists who use a client directed approach ... the clients whose rights you would abolish.

Christian therapy is based on Biblical faith which offers hope for a better life, as opposed to the gay mantra of "you are trapped in homosexuality forever". I know which sounds more depressing to most people.

 

[SilverBear]

Obviously you are little acquainted with the approach of most currently practising therapists who use a client directed approach ... the clients whose rights you would abolish.

Christian therapy is based on Biblical faith which offers hope for a better life, as opposed to the gay mantra of "you are trapped in homosexuality forever". I know which sounds more depressing to most people.

Client directed therapy values the experience of the person in therapy above all else, it emphasizes the person's evaluation of both the therapeutic alliance and the treatment itself.
No one claiming to be involved with client directed therapy would ever suggest that client dissatisfaction with therapy is the result of the client refusing to accept responsibility or on the client's faulty perceptions. One of the hallmarks of client directed therapy is that the client's perspective and perceptions are always the one listened to.

 

[creslaw]

Client directed therapy values the experience of the person in therapy above all else, it emphasizes the person's evaluation of both the therapeutic alliance and the treatment itself.
No one claiming to be involved with client directed therapy would ever suggest that client dissatisfaction with therapy is the result of the client refusing to accept responsibility or on the client's faulty perceptions. One of the hallmarks of client directed therapy is that the client's perspective and perceptions are always the one listened to.

Nothing you have said supports a client blaming therapy for failing to help in achieving his goals. The aim of client centered therapy is to encourage the client to accept responsibility for the process as well as the outcomes.

When a client leaves therapy disappointed he is assailed by messages from the gay community that he has no hope of change - this is what drives more people to suicide than anything else.

 

[SilverBear]

Nothing you have said supports a client blaming therapy for failing to help in achieving his goals. The aim of client centered therapy is to encourage the client to accept responsibility for the process as well as the outcomes.

he point being that ex-gay "therapy" is anything but client centered.

Consider your own responses here. A client states that they are dissatisfied with treatment and has experienced no change in orientation. Your responses:
reject the client's view of orientation, they are experiencing aberrant sexual urges
The client is placing blame for their "failure"
the client is reusing to take responsibility
they aren't motivated

None of these are client centered they are ideology centered...your ideology.

if a client were to identify that they were wrong about their sexual orientation, that change is not a possibility and they want to set goals regarding improved self-esteem, acceptance and finding happiness - would that happen?
Would all pretense of client centered therapy be dropped and the client sent away?
Would the client be chastised for failing to fall in line with your ideology?
Would they be told lies about homosexuality like the suicide whopper you droped in this thread?

When a client leaves therapy disappointed he is assailed by messages from the gay community that he has no hope of change - this is what drives more people to suicide than anything else.

Bull

the causative issues of suicide in the LGBT community are well known and well documented. It is years of dealing with hate and intolerance and the kind of treatment that you are defending here.

 

[creslaw]

he point being that ex-gay "therapy" is anything but client centered.

Consider your own responses here. A client states that they are dissatisfied with treatment and has experienced no change in orientation. Your responses:
reject the client's view of orientation, they are experiencing aberrant sexual urges
The client is placing blame for their "failure"
the client is reusing to take responsibility
they aren't motivated

None of these are client centered they are ideology centered...your ideology.

if a client were to identify that they were wrong about their sexual orientation, that change is not a possibility and they want to set goals regarding improved self-esteem, acceptance and finding happiness - would that happen?
Would all pretense of client centered therapy be dropped and the client sent away?
Would the client be chastised for failing to fall in line with your ideology?
Would they be told lies about homosexuality like the suicide whopper you droped in this thread?



Bull

the causative issues of suicide in the LGBT community are well known and well documented. It is years of dealing with hate and intolerance and the kind of treatment that you are defending here.

Your understanding of client centered therapy is very confused. CCT is about the subjective fit of therapy with a client's expectations & motivations. A homosexual client, no more than an obese person or alcoholic, is in a position to form an objective assessment of therapy in general. Their assessment can only be based on their subjective experience which is, in the case of a disappointed client, the result of their expectations & commitment not matching the therapeutic process.

Christian therapy starts with the understanding that God's will is that we are celibate or express sexuality only in heterosexual marriage. If a client is not committed to that understanding, a therapist will recommend the client seek an alternative process. When a client is committed to that understanding of Scripture, there are very positive results.

There is a dirty secret that homosexual activists try to hide which is that most suicides are caused by the hopelessness engendered by their promotion of the lie that a person can never live a life free from homosexuality. Of course they can't admit this so their virulent campaign to impugn therapy which offers hope.

 

[SilverBear]

Your understanding of client centered therapy is very confused.

no it is accurate, the problem is that the process you are describing as client centered is not client centered at all.

CCT is about the subjective fit of therapy with a client's expectations & motivations. A homosexual client, no more than an obese person or alcoholic, is in a position to form an objective assessment of therapy in general. Their assessment can only be based on their subjective experience which is, in the case of a disappointed client, the result of their expectations & commitment not matching the therapeutic process.

Again you blame the client showing your complete disregard for client centered therapy.

C. von Bellow and A. Werbart Dissatisfied psychotherapy patients: A tentative conceptual model grounded in the participants' view. Found that the main reasons for client "disappointment" was inflexibility on the part of the therapist and the therapists rejection of goals of the client.
It isn't the result of expectations or commitment on the part of the client that leads to dissatisfaction but the therapists disinterest in the goals and concerns of the client.

Christian therapy starts with the understanding that God's will is that we are celibate or express sexuality only in heterosexual marriage. If a client is not committed to that understanding, a therapist will recommend the client seek an alternative process. When a client is committed to that understanding of Scripture, there are very positive results.

showing again a disregard for client centered therapy in favor if the ideology of the therapist.

There is a dirty secret that homosexual activists try to hide which is that most suicides are caused by the hopelessness engendered by their promotion of the lie that a person can never live a life free from homosexuality. Of course they can't admit this so their virulent campaign to impugn therapy which offers hope.

a fine example of ideology trumping both truth and the well being of the client.


I recognize you won't look at any of these and because the findings don't support you ideology they will be be rejected but here are a very small numb of the studies on gays and suicide and the causative issues.

M.J. Rotherman-Borus Suicidal Behavior and Gay-Related Stress among Gay and Bisexual Male Adolescents Journal of adolescent research 2013


V. P. Poteat and D. L. Espelage Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students Journal of Adolescence 2009


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


V.M. Mays & S.D. Cochran “Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults in the United States 2001

J. Ramirez-Valles, L. M. Kuhns, R. T. Campbell, and R. M. Diaz Social Integration and Health: Community Involvement, Stigmatized Identities, and Sexual Risk in Latino Sexual Minorities journal of health and societal behavior.2010

L. E. Ross, C. Dobinson, and A. Eady Perceived Determinants of Mental Health for Bisexual People: A Qualitative Examination American Journal of Public Health 2009

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Mays, V.M. and Cochran, S.D. Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health Nov 2001


M.L. Hatzenbuehler The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Youth. Pediatrics 2011


Cochran, S.D. Sulivan, J.G. and Mays V.M. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Feb 2003


Sanfort, T.G.M., deGraaf, R. and Schnabel, P. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: : Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001


Meyer, I. H. Minority Stress and Mental Health in Gay Men Journal of health and social behavior 2010


Fredrikson, K.I et al Successful Aging Among LGBT Older Adults: Physical and Mental Health-Related Quality of Life by Age Group. The Gerontologist Sept 2014


Kattari, S.K. and Hasche, L. Differences Across Age Groups in Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming People's Experiences of Health Care Discrimination, Harassment, and Victimization. J of Aging June 2015


Peel, E. and Nodin, N. Risk and Resilience Explored for Sexual Minorities in England: Qualitative Findings. Applied Qualitative Research in Psychology, Aug 2014


Burns M.N. et al Mental Health Disorders in Young Urban Sexual Minority Men. J of Adolescent Health Jan 2015

Holloway, I. W. Padilla, M. B. and WIllner, L. Effects of Minority stress processes on the mental health of Latino men who have sex with men. Arch of sexual behavior Sept 2014


Charles K. et al Sexual minority status and trauma symptom severity. J of behavioral medicine Jan 2011


Marshal, P.M. and Dermody S.S. Depressive symptoms and suicidality among heterosexual and sexual minority youth J of youth and adolescence april 2013


Pachankis J. E. and COcran, S.D. The mental health of sexual minority adults in and out of the closet: A population-based study. J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Oct 2015


Bostwick W.B. et al. Discrimination and mental health among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Am J of Orthopshcyiatry Jan 2014


D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Hershberger, S.L. N.W. Pilkington and A.R. D’Augelli. Predictors of Suicide Attempts Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Youth. J of Adolescent research. 1997


Poteat, V.P. and D.L Espelage. Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students J of Adolescent research. 2007


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007


Kyung-Hee Choi, Paul J. Experiences of Discrimination and Their Impact on the Mental Health among African American, Asian and Pacific Islander, and Latino Men Who Have Sex with Men. Am J Public Health. 2013


Savin-Williams, Ritch C. Verbal and physical abuse as stressors in the lives of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths: Associations with school problems, running away, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2014


Graham L.F. Et al Factors Influencing Depression and Anxiety among Black Sexual Minority Men. J of depression research and treatment 2011

 

[creslaw]

no it is accurate, the problem is that the process you are describing as client centered is not client centered at all.



Again you blame the client showing your complete disregard for client centered therapy.

C. von Bellow and A. Werbart Dissatisfied psychotherapy patients: A tentative conceptual model grounded in the participants' view. Found that the main reasons for client "disappointment" was inflexibility on the part of the therapist and the therapists rejection of goals of the client.
It isn't the result of expectations or commitment on the part of the client that leads to dissatisfaction but the therapists disinterest in the goals and concerns of the client.




showing again a disregard for client centered therapy in favor if the ideology of the therapist.



a fine example of ideology trumping both truth and the well being of the client.


I recognize you won't look at any of these and because the findings don't support you ideology they will be be rejected but here are a very small numb of the studies on gays and suicide and the causative issues.

M.J. Rotherman-Borus Suicidal Behavior and Gay-Related Stress among Gay and Bisexual Male Adolescents Journal of adolescent research 2013


V. P. Poteat and D. L. Espelage Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students Journal of Adolescence 2009


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


V.M. Mays & S.D. Cochran “Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults in the United States 2001

J. Ramirez-Valles, L. M. Kuhns, R. T. Campbell, and R. M. Diaz Social Integration and Health: Community Involvement, Stigmatized Identities, and Sexual Risk in Latino Sexual Minorities journal of health and societal behavior.2010

L. E. Ross, C. Dobinson, and A. Eady Perceived Determinants of Mental Health for Bisexual People: A Qualitative Examination American Journal of Public Health 2009

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Mays, V.M. and Cochran, S.D. Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health Nov 2001


M.L. Hatzenbuehler The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Youth. Pediatrics 2011


Cochran, S.D. Sulivan, J.G. and Mays V.M. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Feb 2003


Sanfort, T.G.M., deGraaf, R. and Schnabel, P. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: : Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001


Meyer, I. H. Minority Stress and Mental Health in Gay Men Journal of health and social behavior 2010


Fredrikson, K.I et al Successful Aging Among LGBT Older Adults: Physical and Mental Health-Related Quality of Life by Age Group. The Gerontologist Sept 2014


Kattari, S.K. and Hasche, L. Differences Across Age Groups in Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming People's Experiences of Health Care Discrimination, Harassment, and Victimization. J of Aging June 2015


Peel, E. and Nodin, N. Risk and Resilience Explored for Sexual Minorities in England: Qualitative Findings. Applied Qualitative Research in Psychology, Aug 2014


Burns M.N. et al Mental Health Disorders in Young Urban Sexual Minority Men. J of Adolescent Health Jan 2015

Holloway, I. W. Padilla, M. B. and WIllner, L. Effects of Minority stress processes on the mental health of Latino men who have sex with men. Arch of sexual behavior Sept 2014


Charles K. et al Sexual minority status and trauma symptom severity. J of behavioral medicine Jan 2011


Marshal, P.M. and Dermody S.S. Depressive symptoms and suicidality among heterosexual and sexual minority youth J of youth and adolescence april 2013


Pachankis J. E. and COcran, S.D. The mental health of sexual minority adults in and out of the closet: A population-based study. J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Oct 2015


Bostwick W.B. et al. Discrimination and mental health among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Am J of Orthopshcyiatry Jan 2014


D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005


Hershberger, S.L. N.W. Pilkington and A.R. D’Augelli. Predictors of Suicide Attempts Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Youth. J of Adolescent research. 1997


Poteat, V.P. and D.L Espelage. Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students J of Adolescent research. 2007


Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003


S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007


Kyung-Hee Choi, Paul J. Experiences of Discrimination and Their Impact on the Mental Health among African American, Asian and Pacific Islander, and Latino Men Who Have Sex with Men. Am J Public Health. 2013


Savin-Williams, Ritch C. Verbal and physical abuse as stressors in the lives of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths: Associations with school problems, running away, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2014


Graham L.F. Et al Factors Influencing Depression and Anxiety among Black Sexual Minority Men. J of depression research and treatment 2011

Yes, bullying drives people to suicide, everyone knows that. What gay activism tries to hide is that hopelessness caused by the notion a person can never be free of homosexuality causes even more suicides.

Your approach to client centred therapy would turn out happy pedophiles and accept a client's decision to kill himself.

 

[SilverBear]

Yes, bullying drives people to suicide, everyone knows that.

bullying like blaming the client for their dissatisfaction with therapy because they dared to reject the ideology of the therapist.

Of course more common forms of bullying would be lying about suicide or suddenly bringing bringing up a false association with pedophilia.

What other lies to you tell homosexuals?
Lower life expectancy?
Insane levels of promiscuity?
Diseases?
Interpersonal violence?

What gay activism tries to hide is that hopelessness caused by the notion a person can never be free of homosexuality causes even more suicides.

Evidence?

Your approach to client centred therapy would turn out happy pedophiles and accept a client's decision to kill himself.

If you are trying to bully me, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[creslaw]

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[SilverBear]

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

and the truth is:
no one changes orientation
The highest rates of suicidal thoughts and attempts are found among those participating in ex-gay of conversion therapy.
Client dissatisfaction with ex-gay therapies is related to the inflexibility and disinterest of the therapist.
Ex-gay therapists routinely lie to their clients.

 

[Michael Corbett]

Hi Nic,

I am new to the site and like your posts. I see you are in the Ft. Worth area. Can you give me your take on the faith based feel of that area?

Thanks!

Mike

https://godfatherpolitics.com/new-california-bill-would-mean-banning-the-bible/

"The bill in question is California Assembly Bill 2943. It would treat as a criminal violation of the state’s consumer fraud act “the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer” that consists of “advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual.” Don’t be misled into thinking that this bill bans only professional counselors from trying to alter same-sex attractions. It goes well beyond that.

The new law would outlaw anything that states that same-sex sexuality is not innate. It would deny anyone from saying or counseling that people choose their sexual actions. This would include counseling someone who wants to leave the same-sex lifestyle or offering them literature to that effect.

Is this an exaggeration? Not according to what the bill proposes:"

___________________________________________________________________________

This would be outrageous!

Well even just as Americans, this is an indirect attack on freedom of speech. This is very bad if it passes.