Never to be equaled

Interplanner

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Thinking caps everyone!

The DofJ's misery would "never be equalled."

Let's test this out as though it was future. First, you would all have to agree that the DofJ of 70 was as awful as the text says. And that the text is about that. Ie, you can't jump to the future with it, because if anything were to happen in the distant future, it has to be compared with what happened in that generation, which it did. You have to have the event of 70 to compare to.

2, The DofJ of 70 was therefore worse than 586 BC, which was the low-point of Israel's history before 70 AD.

3, The DofJ of 70 was a punishment in fulfillment of all that was written, Lk 21 and I Thess 1. So there would not need to be another that was in direct relation to what was written. That allows for a 'secular' situation, which is what we have today.

Today we have the farce religion Islam at the neck of the secular state Israel. I hope Israel wins, not because of anything in "prophecy," but because Israel is not sharia totalitarianism. It is not a situation where the old covenant has any terms to bring to bear, because the punishment in fulfillment of all that was written is complete. It is just a secular situation of tension and discord and regressive religion(s). Jesus is saying he knew it would/could happen. But that is very different from saying that a set of old covenant events were going to be replicated there all over again.

4, one big improvement, as far as modern Israel's security goes, over the zealot rebellion, is that you don't have people so deluded by religion that they would rather kill off the incorrect others within their country and then fight the gigantic Roman forces against them, like you did in the DofJ. Which failed.

5, 'world' in v21 must be the land of Israel because there have been other awful events in other places down through time. One would be Noah's flood...
 
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Bible2

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Interplanner said in post 1:

4, one big improvement, as far as modern Israel's security goes, over the zealot rebellion, is that you don't have people so deluded by religion that they would rather kill off the incorrect others within their country and then fight the gigantic Roman forces against them, like you did in the DofJ. Which failed.

Don't forget the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel today.

For one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to remove these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. (Or they could simply clear away their rubble, if earthquakes have already destroyed them by that time.)

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

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Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).
 
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KrAZeD

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Thinking caps everyone!

The DofJ's misery would "never be equalled."

Let's test this out as though it was future. First, you would all have to agree that the DofJ of 70 was as awful as the text says. And that the text is about that. Ie, you can't jump to the future with it, because if anything were to happen in the distant future, it has to be compared with what happened in that generation, which it did. You have to have the event of 70 to compare to.

2, The DofJ of 70 was therefore worse than 586 BC, which was the low-point of Israel's history before 70 AD.

3, The DofJ of 70 was a punishment in fulfillment of all that was written, Lk 21 and I Thess 1. So there would not need to be another that was in direct relation to what was written. That allows for a 'secular' situation, which is what we have today.

Today we have the farce religion Islam at the neck of the secular state Israel. I hope Israel wins, not because of anything in "prophecy," but because Israel is not sharia totalitarianism. It is not a situation where the old covenant has any terms to bring to bear, because the punishment in fulfillment of all that was written is complete. It is just a secular situation of tension and discord and regressive religion(s). Jesus is saying he knew it would/could happen. But that is very different from saying that a set of old covenant events were going to be replicated there all over again.

4, one big improvement, as far as modern Israel's security goes, over the zealot rebellion, is that you don't have people so deluded by religion that they would rather kill off the incorrect others within their country and then fight the gigantic Roman forces against them, like you did in the DofJ. Which failed.

5, 'world' in v21 must be the land of Israel because there have been other awful events in other places down through time. One would be Noah's flood...


5 is self defeating even with your own analogy. Unless your going to tell me noahs flood was only "localized", and was not near the land of "isreal".....please don't tell me you doubt a global flood.

Again I'll give you this question, did Jesus come to save the "world" or only save "gaia"/isreal?
 
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Interplanner

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#5 is strengthened by either size. either one would have been a larger calamity than 586 BC Jerusalem, in which a lot of people were taken captive, not massacred. The % of death in 70 AD Jerusalem was much higher, including many people in the surrounding areas.

Mt24A is about 1st century Judea. At v29 it adds on the topic of the 2nd coming after all the catastrophe of 66-70 AD.

I don't think there was any chance of saving 1st century Israel based on moments like Lk 13:34, and that was half way through the ministry. By the final week of ministry, they knew he had spoken the parable of the tenants against them, which is about the end of the old system and place, and the coming of the new workers in God's 'vineyard.'

The Gospel itself is of course for all mankind, but God was looking for a particular response from Israel about it--to become its missionaries. Instead they chose the zealot way generally--to join a freedom fight for independence.

Our mission of God continues after the DofJ to the end of time.
 
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