Never Heard the Gospel? BURN IN HELL!

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟59,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the bible gives us broad strokes as to what the afterlife will bring us and "hell" is not a crystal clear subject biblical speaking.

What is important in the "perish" part of John 3:16 is not something we should ever take comfort in and we should always seek and desire the eternal life. Where do people go who have never heard the gospel? they go to be judge by God as we all are and he will do as he will with them.

Jesus gave numerous parables in an attempt to illustrate "the kingdom of heaven" and the alternative place, "hell".

"hell" is not a crystal clear subject biblical speaking

Jesus described hell in "crystal clear" terms in most parables related to the "entrance" to the kingdom of heaven...

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8

Where do people go who have never heard the gospel? they go to be judge by God as we all are and he will do as he will with them.

Immediately after Jesus tells us that we have two possibilities, Perish/death or everlasting life, he tells us what happens to those who do not receive everlasting life...They are "condemned already" under the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world. They perish...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
"Condemned already"? Yes, condemned to "death", the consequence of having been born into the world that Adam's sin caused to result in "death". That is why we "must be born again"...

If we accept his offer of "eternal life", we are headed toward a promised "inheritance" that has requirements of entry clearly defined in the word. If we reject the offer of Life", we do not receive "life", remain "dead" and will not be resurrected.

 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jesus gave numerous parables in an attempt to illustrate "the kingdom of heaven" and the alternative place, "hell".



Jesus described hell in "crystal clear" terms in most parables related to the "entrance" to the kingdom of heaven...

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8



Immediately after Jesus tells us that we have two possibilities, Perish/death or everlasting life, he tells us what happens to those who do not receive everlasting life...They are "condemned already" under the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world. They perish...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
"Condemned already"? Yes, condemned to "death", the consequence of having been born into the world that Adam's sin caused to result in "death". That is why we "must be born again"...

If we accept his offer of "eternal life", we are headed toward a promised "inheritance" that has requirements of entry clearly defined in the word. If we reject the offer of Life", we do not receive "life", remain "dead" and will not be resurrected.
Parables are not crystal clear images, they are broad strokes.
 
Upvote 0

Cheylynn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Nov 22, 2017
119
127
57
Vancouver Island
✟112,033.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is unfortunate that we Christians have been telling the unsaved, including those who have never heard the gospel, that they will burn in hell for all eternity. There are millions upon millions who have lived and died, never having heard the gospel, and we say that it is "just" for God to assign them to hell forever, although they had no chance of being saved.

Well-meaning Christians will jump all over this post, believing that they are actually defending God and His word, even though they are not. At the same time, they perpetuate the lie that he is an unjust monster, creating humans destined for hell unless they receive the Savior, most of whom never hear a word about, until they arrive at judgment when it's too late.

If you would like to hear the whole story of a good and just God and have a true explanation of an essential question, go to www.WhoGoesToHell.com for a brief video summary and the readable study online.

When Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he brought two things into the world.

1. "Death" because he disobeyed God.

2. "The knowledge of good and evil" because he ate from the tree that imparted that knowledge.​

Since we have been given the knowledge of good and evil, we can determine what is "good" from what is "evil", and what is "just" from what is "unjust".

The scenario

A man, "John", was driving his car through various towns on his journey. He unknowingly crossed an unmarked town line. A town police officer pulled him over, telling him that he was going 30 MPH in a 29 MPH zone. John said that there were no signs indicating that the speed limit was 29 MPH and that he was only 1 MPH over the limit, even if there were signs (and there were none).

The officer said, I am not the judge, you are under arrest. John was brought before the judge.

John pleaded with the judge saying that there were actually no signs indicating the speed limit, and had there been signs, he would have obeyed.

The judge sentenced him to life in prison with no possibility of appeal or parole.

QUESTION: Is this "Just" or "Unjust" sentencing?​

(This is where Christians jump in to defend God's honor, when in reality, they are defending a doctrine that paints him as an unjust monster.)

Traditional Christian doctrine says that anyone who does not receive Jesus as Savior, even if they never even had the opportunity to hear a single word of the gospel, will burn in hell for all eternity.

Here is what Jesus said...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3)​


Jesus says that there are two possibilities, "perish" (death as a consequence of Adam's sin) or "everlasting life", life that only Jesus can give.

Jesus "saves" us from death and gives us "everlasting life". That is "salvation". That happens when we accept his sacrifice and exchange our "mortality" for "immortality".

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1 Corinthians 15)​

Those who have never heard the gospel "perish" and return to the dust because they were not able to "put on immortality", never having heard of the Savior or his good news covenant.

God's judgment upon Adam (and the world because of Adam)...

17 To the man he said: Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat from it,

Cursed is the ground because of you!
In toil you shall eat its yield
all the days of your life.
18 Thorns and thistles it shall bear for you,
and you shall eat the grass of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you shall eat bread,
Until you return to the ground,
from which you were taken;
For you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.

There is no mention of being resurrected into an eternal existence and being sentenced to hell for all eternity. That is a far greater incentive to obey had Adam been warned...

Then... It is only after we have entered the covenant and have been born again by the spirit can we "strive to enter" our promised "inheritance" which has conditions of entry. These conditions are the expectations of the "Lord" over his "servants", those to whom he has given "salvation" and a promised place that they must value and possess. See the parable of the Treasure hidden in a field, the pearl of great price, the parable of the talents, and others...

Most of the parables are illustrations of those who "enter the kingdom of heaven" having met the Lord's reasonable expectations and those who fail to meet them and are cast out. The "servants" who fail to meet his clearly defined expectations of their "Lord" are sent somewhere... Outer darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth in every case.

Examine the relationships in the following parable. All three individuals are defined as "servants" of the same "Lord". Their Lord comes to "settle accounts" with his servants. In order to be a "servant" of the "Lord", you must receive the covenant that only Jesus offers. Then, and only then, will there be an expectation of the Lord for "productivity"...

The Parable of the Talents

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25

These "servants" have been given eternal life. They have "put on immortality". They can never die. They go to where eternal beings like Satan and the rebellious angels under judgment go... Hell.

Those who do not accept the covenant of everlasting life from Jesus, whether they have heard of it or not, "perish", just as Jesus said they will.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3)​

Those who receive his covenant are given eternal life and will be asked by "their Lord" to demonstrate that they have valued the kingdom promised "inheritance" that was theirs to "enter", when their Lord comes to settle accounts with His "servants".

The parables reveal the mystery of the "requirements" to possess what the Lord has purchased for those who receive his covenant of "salvation" from death and promise of and "inheritance", the kingdom of heaven...

Take a look for a complete understanding: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

I have given your post and responses a read to try to hear where you are coming from. In my last response (#42) I said that what you say is troubling, and maintain this.
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions. 1 Timothy 6:3-4.
What you are attempting to put out there is unfounded scripturely. As the above scripture says, you are arguing'about words' and cherry pick, and twist verses to suit your meaning. You are dangerous for the young believers.
And this is my warning regarding you:
I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. Romans 16:17.
You are taking away from Christ and Him crucified, by nullifying why it is He came by somehow removing Him so your (heretical) doctrine can be propagated. Dangerous. I seriously have no vested interest in you personally, but one thing, to warn you in Christ. You tread on dangerous ground in your doctrine of confusion that you are attempting to spread.
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟59,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have given your post and responses a read to try to hear where you are coming from. In my last response (#42) I said that what you say is troubling, and maintain this.
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions. 1 Timothy 6:3-4.
What you are attempting to put out there is unfounded scripturely. As the above scripture says, you are arguing'about words' and cherry pick, and twist verses to suit your meaning. You are dangerous for the young believers.
And this is my warning regarding you:
I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. Romans 16:17.
You are taking away from Christ and Him crucified, by nullifying why it is He came by somehow removing Him so your (heretical) doctrine can be propagated. Dangerous. I seriously have no vested interest in you personally, but one thing, to warn you in Christ. You tread on dangerous ground in your doctrine of confusion that you are attempting to spread.

We will all stand before the Lord and give an account. One billion Catholics will say of Protestants what you have said to me. They will insist that what they believe about the scriptures is "sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching" and that you "are conceited and understand nothing". Does their numbers and long history make their understanding of scripture perfect so as to dismiss and condemn others?

Martin Luther suggested that salvation came by grace through faith rather than works and he was called a heretic, just as you accuse me. And no, I am not saying I am on a par with Martin Luther. I am simply asking believers to examine what we say the scriptures mean and to be able to explain it in the light of legitimate examination.

You have not scripturally refuted or even addressed any of the points that I have presented at great length, though I have addressed every question respectfully. You merely condemn me as someone whom you reject and call "dangerous". That is because you sincerely believe what you believe is an accurate understanding of scripture and not because you "are conceited and understand nothing". You should afford me the same respect, and not assume that because you disagree with a view that I present to fellow believers, supported by a mountain of scripture, that it is your duty to slander me based on your view of the meaning of the same scriptures.

I chose to present this topic for discussion on the "Controversial Christian Theology" discussion board so that those with a thorough understanding of the word of God can tear apart what I have put forth. You have contributed nothing to the conversation other than to slander me.

I have heard your warning (again) and you and I will stand before the Lord and He will tell us who has rightly divided the word of truth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The word “perish” is self-defined as absolute. It does not need further qualifying adjectives to be understood as you suggest are necessary…

The associated word "destruction" (2 Thess.1:9) has a qualifying adjective, aionios. That proves that such words as these have qualifying adjectives associated with them.

If aionios at 2 Thess.1:9 & Jn.3:16 refers to a long finite duration of a future aion (eon, age), then the point of John 3:16 can be contrasting destinies in that eon.

More literal versions say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

The word “perish” already means “completely destroyed permanently” as it is translated in the English language.

The first 2 definitions of Webster's dictionary are 1. "to become destroyed or ruined" & 2. " deteriorate, spoil": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perish

Anyone that is told, “My son “perished” in the Iraq war”, understands that the son has “perished endlessly” and he won’t be reconstituted in this life. He is completely and irrevocably returned to the dust as far as his existence on the earth. Whether or not he will be raised to a “new” life or not, does not negate the fact that his “old” natural life has perished “endlessly”, and the hearer understands this in the English language.

Actually, that is incorrect. Saying "My son “perished” in the Iraq war" says nothing about whether or not he has perished forever. The resurrection will reverse that perishing, making it temporary, not forever.

A tomato "perishes" endlessly. It is understood without adding the word "endlessly".

A tomato that rots or is burned up is not annihilated. It does not cease to exist, but is ruined, changed into something else, e.g. smoke, ashes. If Love Omnipotent wanted to He could restore the tomato just as He will resurrect bodies that have been cremated or rotted away in their graves.

All unsaved mankind are already perishing while still alive:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor.1:18)
For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor.2:15)

The prodigal son was also "lost" (same Greek word for "perish" Jn.3:16) & "dead". He was not annihilated or destroyed forever, but later found & alive again. This proves that to perish (Jn.3:16) is not a condition of ruin that Love Omnipotent is unable to save them from.

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/5

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
As I'm sure you know, the further down the list of definitions that you go, the more abstract and less used meanings of the word being defined.

That is not always true.

BTW in your 10 point list, the first 5 have no bible references with them, but all of the last 5 do.

The first 5 definitions are what are universally understood as the meaning of the word "perish".

This has not been proven or supported with any evidence, but merely asserted.

You have also ignored other sources & opinions re the word. The urls i provided to various opinions on the Greek word apollumi consistently showed the meanings of "lose", "lost" & or "ruin" (literally or figuratively).
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟59,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The associated word "destruction" (2 Thess.1:9) has a qualifying adjective, aionios. That proves that such words as these have qualifying adjectives associated with them.

If aionios at 2 Thess.1:9 & Jn.3:16 refers to a long finite duration of a future aion (eon, age), then the point of John 3:16 can be contrasting destinies in that eon.

More literal versions say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

The first 2 definitions of Webster's dictionary are 1. "to become destroyed or ruined" & 2. " deteriorate, spoil": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perish

Actually, that is incorrect. Saying "My son “perished” in the Iraq war" says nothing about whether or not he has perished forever. The resurrection will reverse that perishing, making it temporary, not forever.

A tomato that rots or is burned up is not annihilated. It does not cease to exist, but is ruined, changed into something else, e.g. smoke, ashes. If Love Omnipotent wanted to He could restore the tomato just as He will resurrect bodies that have been cremated or rotted away in their graves.

All unsaved mankind are already perishing while still alive:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor.1:18)
For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor.2:15)

The prodigal son was also "lost" (same Greek word for "perish" Jn.3:16) & "dead". He was not annihilated or destroyed forever, but later found & alive again. This proves that to perish (Jn.3:16) is not a condition of ruin that Love Omnipotent is unable to save them from.

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/5

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html


You have touched on an essential point that will clarify things a little later in my response...

We probably will not agree on the simple meaning of the word "perish" as it is understood by the vast majority of those who use and hear it used- Its permanence, endlessly continuing as I believe the word is defined without qualification.

The associated word "destruction" (2 Thess.1:9) has a qualifying adjective, aionios. That proves that such words as these have qualifying adjectives associated with them.

Here is the verse you referenced:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

When someone "perishes" as the word is defined, it is understood to mean "permanently". I know that you disagree. In the example you cite as proof, you use "everlasting destruction", as opposed to simple "destruction", there is a difference. In the case of "destruction", there is the potential of reconstruction to the same state prior to destruction. The whole verse has to make it clear that the "destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from his glory" is permanent, not to be restored. Therefore, "everlasting" must qualify the word "destruction" so that it is understood to be permanent, as is the word, "perish".

Some folks reading this believe we are splitting hairs over words. I know that you take words seriously, as do I. Man "lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

The first 2 definitions of Webster's dictionary are 1. "to become destroyed or ruined" & 2. " deteriorate, spoil": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perish

I used the King James Dictionary to define the words. It is written with a biblical understanding of words as they are used in the bible.

KJV Dictionary Definition: perish

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner

2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.

5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.
Actually, that is incorrect. Saying "My son “perished” in the Iraq war" says nothing about whether or not he has perished forever. The resurrection will reverse that perishing, making it temporary, not forever.

This is where we get to the heart of the matter under discussion. It is the perfect example of illustrating what I am attempting to present.

If my son "perished" in the Iraq war, he has permanently "perished" from his "mortal" life and will not be restored to "mortal" life. His only hope of any life to come will be by the "new" life, that is everlasting, that only Jesus gives, if it was accepted by him before he died. My son would have had to enter the covenant with Christ so that he will be resurrected to "Immortality"...

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54​

Jesus is the only one who gives everlasting life. Agree/Disagree? If someone does not enter into the covenant, accepting everlasting life from "death", they "perish" because they are "mortal" only. They cannot put on "immortality" apart from the covenant.

This is the whole point... Church doctrine says that everyone already has everlasting life, that the soul is already eternal, that all will be resurrected, and then judged, being sent to heaven or hell.

What does this mean?

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18​

If a "mortal" being "perishes", it is permanent. The soul, thought life, and consciousness ceases unless there is an intervention by Christ, who is the only one who can give "immortality". This is why we must be "born again".

The "vessel" of a "mortal" body is "flesh" and it contains our soul, our consciousness, the "who we are". When we enter the covenant with Christ, we have been born in the "spirit", a new and "imperishable vessel" into which our soul is translated at the resurrection of the dead.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3​

Unless one is "born of" the spirit, he will not have the spirit's attribute of "everlasting" life. He will only have the attribute of the "flesh", mortality, being only "born of" the flesh.

Please just pause and examine what I just said. It is not heresy. It is an exact understanding of the what Jesus was attempting to explain to Nicodemus.

A tomato that rots or is burned up is not annihilated. It does not cease to exist, but is ruined, changed into something else, e.g. smoke, ashes. If Love Omnipotent wanted to He could restore the tomato just as He will resurrect bodies that have been cremated or rotted away in their graves.

This is another illustration of the point I am making. A tomato that "perishes" and returns to dust, has permanently left its state of being as a "tomato". It no longer exists as a living tomato if it returns to the dust. Yes, the Lord can intervene, but if he does not, it has "perished" permanently. Dust is no longer a tomato. It is "dust", merely the elements of what it is no longer..

When the Lord told Adam,

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17​

He defined what he meant by "die"...

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen 3
Unless the Lord creates a covenant by which Adam can be raised from the dust, he has perished permanently. Fortunately, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and Adam will be saved by the Savior born of the "woman's seed". Again, this is an intervention by the Lord to bring a different destiny than the one Adam would have permanently "perished" as a result of his sin.

The prodigal son was also "lost" (same Greek word for "perish" Jn.3:16) & "dead". He was not annihilated or destroyed forever, but later found & alive again. This proves that to perish (Jn.3:16) is not a condition of ruin that Love Omnipotent is unable to save them from.

While the prodigal son was away from his father by his own choice, in his father's eyes, he was "dead" and "lost". Had the son not returned and died without being restored to his father, he would have remained "dead" and "lost" to his father. The son's choice to return (intervened in the inevitable permanence of separation) and his father's response and restoration shows the love of our Father. But if we choose to stay away, we can see how he sees us by this parable, "dead" and "lost".

23 Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast,

24 because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.’ Then the celebration began.

The son was restored before death closed his eyes for the last time. In his case, he was never "dead" in the flesh, but only "dead" in his father's eyes. His restoration came by reentering his father's house of his own free will, as do we...

Thank you for your thoughtful examination of this view of scripture. I know how difficult it is to even consider any other view than what we have all believed. The only thing that will matter is if it is true.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Crystal clear as far as being a terrifying place that one would not want to go to. How's that?
it's an undesired place and we should never take comfort in the fact that some may go there but what the place looks like should be considered unknown, just that it is undesired
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We probably will not agree on the simple meaning of the word "perish" as it is understood by the vast majority of those who use and hear it used- Its permanence, endlessly continuing as I believe the word is defined without qualification.

I think when we talk about how the "vast majority" of the church has understood the Greek word behind the English rendering "perish" (e.g. Jn.3:16), it has not meant endless annihilation for the past 2000 years except to a minority. The vast majority have not taken the word to mean annihilation, let alone endless annihilation.

Here is the verse you referenced:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

When someone "perishes" as the word is defined, it is understood to mean "permanently". I know that you disagree. In the example you cite as proof, you use "everlasting destruction", as opposed to simple "destruction", there is a difference. In the case of "destruction", there is the potential of reconstruction to the same state prior to destruction. The whole verse has to make it clear that the "destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from his glory" is permanent, not to be restored. Therefore, "everlasting" must qualify the word "destruction" so that it is understood to be permanent, as is the word, "perish".

Permanence has nothing to do with the word apollumi rendered "perish", "lost", "destroy", "lose", "ruin", "die", etc in the Scriptures. A person, e.g. Lazarus, could "perish" (i.e. die) & be raised back to life again in a few minutes, hours or days. The duration of "perish" was hardly permanent. The word itself tells us nothing of how long the thing or person etc shall "perish", be "lost", "ruined", "destroyed", etc.

In the case of 2 Thess.1:9 the context does tell us how long the "destruction" will be. It is aionion, eonian, that is pertaining to, or related to, an eon or eons. Certainly not something that need be everlasting, but may very well last a long, long time.

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –
properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/book-review-the-inescapable-love-of-god-part-5/

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=213

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4087

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


Some folks reading this believe we are splitting hairs over words. I know that you take words seriously, as do I. Man "lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

I used the King James Dictionary to define the words. It is written with a biblical understanding of words as they are used in the bible.

Who is the author of the "King James Dictionary"? What are his qualifications in Greek? If it was published in 1828, can we consider it up to date with the latest Greek scholarship:
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/kjd.html

OTOH here are what some Greek scholars say:

"There is nothing in the word that necessitates ἀπόλλυμι means a permanent and total destruction.":

https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/does-ἀπόλλυμι-mean-“destroy”

"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7. So of persons, Matthew 2:13, "destroy;" Matthew 8:25, "perish;" Matthew 22:7; Matthew 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28; Luke 13:3,5; John 3:16(John 3:15 in some mss.); John 10:28; John 17:12; Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15, "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; James 4:12; 2 Peter 3:9."
https://studybible.info/vines/Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive


KJV Dictionary Definition: perish

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner

2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.

5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.

The first meaning above is "1. To die; to lose life in any manner". This recalls the prodigal son's loss of life. He is spoken of as "dead" & "lost"(apolummi). Not permanently or eternally, but only until he was later found & alive. He was never endlessly annihilated or ceasing to exist.​


When the Lord told Adam,

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17​
He defined what he meant by "die"...

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen 3​

Man is more than just dust, earth, water, & material substances. He is made in the image & likeness of God & has a soul & spirit.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
What does this mean?

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18

The sinning soul shall die. Not die eternally.

The verse may simply be referring to this mortal life in harmony with what many other OT passages say:

Proverbs 3:1,2: "My son, forget not my law; but let your heart keep my commands, for length of days and long life, and peace, shall they add to you."

Ezek. 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.

Proverbs 4:10: "My son, receive My sayings; and the years of your life shall be many."
Proverbs 10:27: "The fear of the LORD prolongs days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
1Kings 3:14: "If you walk in My ways, and keep My commandments ... then I will lengthen your days.
Exodus 20:12: “Honour your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Deuteronomy 5:16: “Honour your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Psalm 34:12,13: “Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit.”
Psalm 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
Eph.6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Exodus 23:25,26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and He will BLESS your bread and water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you, and the (full) number of your days I will fulfil."
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
Disagree. Hell is the absence of God and is full of regret the moment you get there.

There is no painting of a good picture in hell. It's better to lose your eyes here on earth than be in hell.

You can disagree.

The whole point of Hell is that men need not die in the absence of God, unless it is their will to do so.

Even then, they may choose to change their faith, between death and the second death (in principle).

Once you die, in Hell, then yes, there is an absence of God - but they weren't the terms you were discussing: the terms you were discussing were being in Hell, implicitly before dying in Hell.
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟59,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The sinning soul shall die. Not die eternally.

The verse may simply be referring to this mortal life in harmony with what many other OT passages say:

Proverbs 3:1,2: "My son, forget not my law; but let your heart keep my commands, for length of days and long life, and peace, shall they add to you."

Ezek. 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.

Proverbs 4:10: "My son, receive My sayings; and the years of your life shall be many."
Proverbs 10:27: "The fear of the LORD prolongs days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
1Kings 3:14: "If you walk in My ways, and keep My commandments ... then I will lengthen your days.
Exodus 20:12: “Honour your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Deuteronomy 5:16: “Honour your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Psalm 34:12,13: “Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit.”
Psalm 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
Eph.6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Exodus 23:25,26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and He will BLESS your bread and water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you, and the (full) number of your days I will fulfil."

All of the verses you cited have to do with "long life and length of days on the earth". These verses refer to "mortal" existence only. This is the "old" covenant, that did not offer "eternal life" until Jesus fulfilled the covenant and became the Jews' Savior as the Lamb that was slain. Their covenant was "obey the law and you will be blessed in your life here on earth". Jesus brought the full blessing of not merely "land" here, but the promise of an eternal "promised land" inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.

The sinning soul shall die. Not die eternally.

The verse may simply be referring to this mortal life in harmony with what many other OT passages say:

3 Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146
Does an animal perish "endlessly"? Is it resurrected from the dust to the previous state of "being" an animal? No, it has perished permanently. "Can" God resurrect every animal? Of course. Does He? And if he does not, has the animal perished "endlessly"?

A "mortal" man, "in whom there is no salvation" (eternal life from Christ), "his spirit departs, he returns to the dust" and "that very day his thoughts perish". His consciousness ceases.

Unless the Lord has given him "immortality", he is only "mortal" and perishes like an animal, returning to the dust. (I know you do not agree).

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54

Do you agree that if the "mortal" does not put on "immortality" that the "mortal" man faces permanent "corruption"?

Do you agree that Jesus is the only One who offers "immortality"?

Do you agree that if someone does not accept the "immorality" covenant from Christ that "death" has a "victory"?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟59,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think when we talk about how the "vast majority" of the church has understood the Greek word behind the English rendering "perish" (e.g. Jn.3:16), it has not meant endless annihilation for the past 2000 years except to a minority. The vast majority have not taken the word to mean annihilation, let alone endless annihilation.



Permanence has nothing to do with the word apollumi rendered "perish", "lost", "destroy", "lose", "ruin", "die", etc in the Scriptures. A person, e.g. Lazarus, could "perish" (i.e. die) & be raised back to life again in a few minutes, hours or days. The duration of "perish" was hardly permanent. The word itself tells us nothing of how long the thing or person etc shall "perish", be "lost", "ruined", "destroyed", etc.

In the case of 2 Thess.1:9 the context does tell us how long the "destruction" will be. It is aionion, eonian, that is pertaining to, or related to, an eon or eons. Certainly not something that need be everlasting, but may very well last a long, long time.

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –
properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/book-review-the-inescapable-love-of-god-part-5/

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=213

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4087

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf




Who is the author of the "King James Dictionary"? What are his qualifications in Greek? If it was published in 1828, can we consider it up to date with the latest Greek scholarship:
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/kjd.html

OTOH here are what some Greek scholars say:

"There is nothing in the word that necessitates ἀπόλλυμι means a permanent and total destruction.":

https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/does-ἀπόλλυμι-mean-“destroy”

"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7. So of persons, Matthew 2:13, "destroy;" Matthew 8:25, "perish;" Matthew 22:7; Matthew 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28; Luke 13:3,5; John 3:16(John 3:15 in some mss.); John 10:28; John 17:12; Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15, "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; James 4:12; 2 Peter 3:9."
https://studybible.info/vines/Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive




The first meaning above is "1. To die; to lose life in any manner". This recalls the prodigal son's loss of life. He is spoken of as "dead" & "lost"(apolummi). Not permanently or eternally, but only until he was later found & alive. He was never endlessly annihilated or ceasing to exist.​




Man is more than just dust, earth, water, & material substances. He is made in the image & likeness of God & has a soul & spirit.

Man is more than just dust, earth, water, & material substances. He is made in the image & likeness of God & has a soul & spirit.

God said to Adam, "You ARE dust", not "You are more than just dust". Being made in the "image and likeness of God" is not without limitation. We are not almighty, omnipresent, omniscient, eternal, etc. He can take way what has been given. In fact, that is exactly what he told Adam would be the consequence for disobeying his one command. Everything that was given to Adam that was more than dust will be taken away, and to his previous state, he will be returned...

By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”​

He is telling Adam that what you were before, out of what I fashioned you into my image and likeness, was dust, and to that state of being, you are going to return". Dust has no conscious existence.

It is only by the covenant given by Jesus to Adam, that his soul will be resurrected and given "everlasting life"... He will become a "new" creature, incorruptible, immortal.
 
Upvote 0

Eric Abbott

Active Member
Dec 8, 2016
60
46
35
Texas
Visit site
✟13,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You can disagree.

The whole point of Hell is that men need not die in the absence of God, unless it is their will to do so.

Even then, they may choose to change their faith, between death and the second death (in principle).

Once you die, in Hell, then yes, there is an absence of God - but they weren't the terms you were discussing: the terms you were discussing were being in Hell, implicitly before dying in Hell.
Your reading the Bible correct?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
3 Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146
Does an animal perish "endlessly"? Is it resurrected from the dust to the previous state of "being" an animal? No, it has perished permanently. "Can" God resurrect every animal? Of course. Does He? And if he does not, has the animal perished "endlessly"?

The "soul sleep" view of Jehovah's Witnesses & some other cults is addressed at:

https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2007/10/26/soul-sleep-a-refutation/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2018/01/soul-sleep-thorough-biblical-refutation.html

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/208462-refuting-the-jehovahs-witnesses-on-soul-sleep/

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/soul_sleep.htm

https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-do-we-refute-the-soul-sleep-argument

http://www.dispelthedarkness.org/articles/ecclesiastes-95-and-soul-sleep/

Even if the soul did sleep until the resurrection, God will still be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) in the end:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
It is unfortunate that we Christians have been telling the unsaved, including those who have never heard the gospel, that they will burn in hell for all eternity. There are millions upon millions who have lived and died, never having heard the gospel, and we say that it is "just" for God to assign them to hell forever, although they had no chance of being saved.

Well-meaning Christians will jump all over this post, believing that they are actually defending God and His word, even though they are not. At the same time, they perpetuate the lie that he is an unjust monster, creating humans destined for hell unless they receive the Savior, most of whom never hear a word about, until they arrive at judgment when it's too late.

If you would like to hear the whole story of a good and just God and have a true explanation of an essential question, go to www.WhoGoesToHell.com for a brief video summary and the readable study online.

When Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he brought two things into the world.

1. "Death" because he disobeyed God.

2. "The knowledge of good and evil" because he ate from the tree that imparted that knowledge.​

Since we have been given the knowledge of good and evil, we can determine what is "good" from what is "evil", and what is "just" from what is "unjust".

The scenario

A man, "John", was driving his car through various towns on his journey. He unknowingly crossed an unmarked town line. A town police officer pulled him over, telling him that he was going 30 MPH in a 29 MPH zone. John said that there were no signs indicating that the speed limit was 29 MPH and that he was only 1 MPH over the limit, even if there were signs (and there were none).

The officer said, I am not the judge, you are under arrest. John was brought before the judge.

John pleaded with the judge saying that there were actually no signs indicating the speed limit, and had there been signs, he would have obeyed.

The judge sentenced him to life in prison with no possibility of appeal or parole.

QUESTION: Is this "Just" or "Unjust" sentencing?​

(This is where Christians jump in to defend God's honor, when in reality, they are defending a doctrine that paints him as an unjust monster.)

Traditional Christian doctrine says that anyone who does not receive Jesus as Savior, even if they never even had the opportunity to hear a single word of the gospel, will burn in hell for all eternity.

Here is what Jesus said...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3)​


Jesus says that there are two possibilities, "perish" (death as a consequence of Adam's sin) or "everlasting life", life that only Jesus can give.

Jesus "saves" us from death and gives us "everlasting life". That is "salvation". That happens when we accept his sacrifice and exchange our "mortality" for "immortality".

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1 Corinthians 15)​

Those who have never heard the gospel "perish" and return to the dust because they were not able to "put on immortality", never having heard of the Savior or his good news covenant.

God's judgment upon Adam (and the world because of Adam)...

17 To the man he said: Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat from it,

Cursed is the ground because of you!
In toil you shall eat its yield
all the days of your life.
18 Thorns and thistles it shall bear for you,
and you shall eat the grass of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you shall eat bread,
Until you return to the ground,
from which you were taken;
For you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.

There is no mention of being resurrected into an eternal existence and being sentenced to hell for all eternity. That is a far greater incentive to obey had Adam been warned...

Then... It is only after we have entered the covenant and have been born again by the spirit can we "strive to enter" our promised "inheritance" which has conditions of entry. These conditions are the expectations of the "Lord" over his "servants", those to whom he has given "salvation" and a promised place that they must value and possess. See the parable of the Treasure hidden in a field, the pearl of great price, the parable of the talents, and others...

Most of the parables are illustrations of those who "enter the kingdom of heaven" having met the Lord's reasonable expectations and those who fail to meet them and are cast out. The "servants" who fail to meet his clearly defined expectations of their "Lord" are sent somewhere... Outer darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth in every case.

Examine the relationships in the following parable. All three individuals are defined as "servants" of the same "Lord". Their Lord comes to "settle accounts" with his servants. In order to be a "servant" of the "Lord", you must receive the covenant that only Jesus offers. Then, and only then, will there be an expectation of the Lord for "productivity"...

The Parable of the Talents

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25

These "servants" have been given eternal life. They have "put on immortality". They can never die. They go to where eternal beings like Satan and the rebellious angels under judgment go... Hell.

Those who do not accept the covenant of everlasting life from Jesus, whether they have heard of it or not, "perish", just as Jesus said they will.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3)​

Those who receive his covenant are given eternal life and will be asked by "their Lord" to demonstrate that they have valued the kingdom promised "inheritance" that was theirs to "enter", when their Lord comes to settle accounts with His "servants".

The parables reveal the mystery of the "requirements" to possess what the Lord has purchased for those who receive his covenant of "salvation" from death and promise of and "inheritance", the kingdom of heaven...

Take a look for a complete understanding: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

I could be wrong... but I am convinced that we are living in a time period when Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is keeping his promise to ...... .in the future...... speak plainly of the Father.

John 16:25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."


https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-being-of-light-of-nde-fame-g-d-or-satan.7933912/
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All of the verses you cited have to do with "long life and length of days on the earth". These verses refer to "mortal" existence only. This is the "old" covenant, that did not offer "eternal life" until Jesus fulfilled the covenant and became the Jews' Savior as the Lamb that was slain. Their covenant was "obey the law and you will be blessed in your life here on earth". Jesus brought the full blessing of not merely "land" here, but the promise of an eternal "promised land" inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.
3 Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146
Does an animal perish "endlessly"? Is it resurrected from the dust to the previous state of "being" an animal? No, it has perished permanently. "Can" God resurrect every animal? Of course. Does He? And if he does not, has the animal perished "endlessly"?
A "mortal" man, "in whom there is no salvation" (eternal life from Christ), "his spirit departs, he returns to the dust" and "that very day his thoughts perish". His consciousness ceases.
Unless the Lord has given him "immortality", he is only "mortal" and perishes like an animal, returning to the dust. (I know you do not agree).

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54
Do you agree that if the "mortal" does not put on "immortality" that the "mortal" man faces permanent "corruption"?
Do you agree that Jesus is the only One who offers "immortality"?
Do you agree that if someone does not accept the "immorality" covenant from Christ that "death" has a "victory"
?
One can make the Bible support almost any view by selectively quoting out-of-context proof texts.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
In the NT Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​


 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,890
7,988
NW England
✟1,052,155.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Also-- if God never sends them a missinary, it was because they wouldn't have believed them about the gospel anyway..

No.
Jesus told us to go into the world and make disciples of ALL nations, Matthew 28:19-20. He told the disciples they would be his witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth, Acts 1:8. He also told us to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send more labourers into the harvest.
He did not say "preach the Gospel to some people; the rest wouldn't have believed anyway, so you're off the hook."
Jesus said that we shouldn't love only those who love us; so we shouldn't only proclaim the Gospel to those we think will accept it.

If missionaries don't go to some parts of the world, it's probably either because those countries refuse to let them in, or to preach, or that there are language problems and the Bible isn't available in that language - or simply that God is calling and people aren't answering.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Eric Abbott
Upvote 0