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Never Heard the Gospel? BURN IN HELL!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by TogetherInHim, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  2. Cheylynn

    Cheylynn Member Supporter

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    Romans 1: 18-32 explains clearly that ALL are without excuse for in creation, God reveals Himself.
    I feel that you are arguing that there are some who are 'innocent' which is counter to what we are taught through the scriptures. 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' says Rom 3:23. ALL are deserving of the judgement of God's wrath, which is upon ALL sin, that is not covered by the blood of His Son. Three is no compartments to who goes where. Those who did not get formerly told of Christ, are told of God, in the creation - they need only to acknowledge Him, and worship Him in this - but most if not all - do not. we all die, and are appointed THE judgement, not judgements.
    the scenario you give regarding the judge - is quite flawed. It reveals your lack of knowledge for one. as I have stated, we are given the commandments and God also reveals Himself in creation. there is not one, who will be without excuse to say 'oh, sorry, I did not know' for on that day, they will not even open their mouth - for they will clearly see how they rejected God over and over again. Your argument is troubling to say the least.
    You are using 'wording' argument - what we are warned not to do 1 Tim 6:4; he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
    This reference you make as God being an 'unjust monster' - I believe, is the place where you are caught in- for it is YOU that has placed him there. you have head knowledge, are gathering the knowledge of others - and are creating your own image of God, that suits your flesh mind. I would admonish you to learn what it means to seek God in Spirit and truth.
    For in truth, you are like a bulldozer, trying to create your own landscape my friend
     
  3. V37

    V37 New Member

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    While I flinch at the idea of [a good and just god], I have come to accept 1# that God relies on the gospel never to get anybody to heaven (salvation level 4), but only to get folk into the church (salvation level 3), level 3 being a blessed addition to life subsequent to Calvary and limited to exposure to and uptake of its message, and 2# that level 4 has never been based on a message. You might enjoy reading Israel’s Gone Global on this.
     
  4. Eric Abbott

    Eric Abbott New Member

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    People do not go to hell for not hearing about Jesus, they go to hell for their sin and things that they did that they knew was wrong.

    Also-- if God never sends them a missinary, it was because they wouldn't have believed them about the gospel anyway.. Since God knows what their decision would be if he did send them one. He would not force them to reject it, he would just know what they would do.

    Again, those who did not accept Christ or never heard the gospel, they are not going to be judged by not hearing the gospel, they will only be judged by their own sin against their conscious...

    Now i dont know about you, but this is why Jesus has commanded us to tell the gospel to everyone-- this gives me a sense of urgency about it, and its my drive to tell my family, coworkers and friends.. And using the resources of the church to spread and reach as many people as possible about the gospel while i am here.
     
  5. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

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    11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” Romans 10
     
  6. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

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    You contradicted yourself...

    "if God never sends them a missionary, it was because they wouldn't have believed them about the gospel anyway.. Since God knows what their decision would be if he did send them one. He would not force them to reject it, he would just know what they would do."​

    Then you say...

    "Now i don't know about you, but this is why Jesus has commanded us to tell the gospel to everyone-- this gives me a sense of urgency about it, and its my drive to tell my family, coworkers and friends.. And using the resources of the church to spread and reach as many people as possible about the gospel while i am here."
    If you say on the one hand, we should be urgent about spreading the gospel to friends and family "as missionaries", then why is OK to not be urgent about whole countries that have not had the gospel preached? They certainly cannot be saved without hearing.

    Why would Paul say this if what you are saying is true?...

    11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” Romans 10
     
  7. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

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    It is troubling (for your sake) to hear you inaccurately characterize what I have presented and then make a scathing condemnation of me personally.

    It is obvious that you do not understand what I have presented for consideration.

    In any case...

    You have wrongly stated that I said that those who do not hear the gospel are "innocent" and therefore should not be judged. What I said was that those who do not hear the gospel so as to be "saved" from "death", the curse that Adam brought upon the world, are judged already... Just as Jesus said...

    16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3
    Those that have never heard the gospel so as to be saved, "are without excuse" as far as using "unawareness" of the gospel to justify themselves into escaping God's judgement of "death" that Adam bought upon the world.

    Everyone born has the inner knowledge of God that is seen in all his creation. Every culture throughout time has set up religious worship of a god or gods because this is so...

    "we all die, and are appointed THE judgement, not judgements." You are incorrect. Since the first "judgement" of "death" that fell upon Adam and upon the world because of his sin, we are all under this judgement and will "perish" unless we are "saved" by the blood covenant of Christ and given "everlasting life" in exchange for our death sentence...

    16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    The final judgement will be at the resurrection of those who have been given eternal life from death that only Jesus gives. This is where many will hear...

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ Matthew 7

    This judgement is for those who are expected to "do the will of My Father who is in heaven". Those that call upon the name of the Lord and receive his unmerited gift of everlasting life from "death", are expected to "do the will of the Father in heaven". What is the "will of the Father"? Repent and love. That is our covenant sealed in the blood of Christ. If instead they "practice lawlessness"...

    26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10

    There is no way to read this scripture and say it is not for those who have accepted the covenant of Christ. "who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified... "Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

    The final judgement is for those who have passed from "death" to "life" and stand before the Lord who gave us everything...

    Parable of the Talents

    14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.


    16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.


    19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’


    22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’


    24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’


    26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’


    29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25

    I hope that you can see by the relationships that Jesus uses of "Lord" and "his Servants", that our Lord has reasonable expectations of "his servants" and that he will "settle accounts". These expectations have both rewards and consequences regarding entrance to our "inheritance", the kingdom of heaven.

    If you can't see it, then Jesus was right again...

    10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

    You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
    You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
    15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
    With their ears they scarcely hear,
    And they have closed their eyes,
    Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    And understand with their heart and return,
    And I would heal them.’

    Matthew 13
     
  8. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

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    You have redefined the definition of "perish".


    KJV Dictionary Definition: perish

    PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

    1. To die; to lose life in any manner

    2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

    3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

    4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.

    5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.​

    Your definition, "Perish as being cast into eternal Hell" does not exist. This is why we do not understand what Jesus is offering, "life" from certain "death"...

    16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3

    This is exactly what went wrong...we have merged two separate and distinctly different things together. "Salvation" and our "inheritance". The kingdom of heaven "inheritance" is bought and paid for by Christ when we accept his covenant along with life from our death sentence, exchanged for everlasting life.

    1. We are "saved" from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world and given "everlasting life".

    2. We are promised and "inheritance" the kingdom of heaven (as you put it, "God's glorious presence")​

    Both of these are wonderful free gifts completely paid for, no works to "earn" them. However, it is clearly seen in the parables that there are expectations of the Lord that somehow qualifies and disqualifies those who have been given both "salvation " from death and an "inheritance", to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.


    16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.


    19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’


    22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’


    24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’


    26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’


    29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25

    Do you agree that there is no distinction between the "servants", that they are all "owned" and that "their Lord" has expectations of something? And on the basis of those expectations being met, or unmet, that they either "enter into" or are "cast out of" the place where the "Master" dwells?

    The "productivity" the Lord is expecting is not to "earn" what he has already paid for. It is to demonstrate as a believer that it is treasured and that we are joyfully working on his behalf out of appreciation. See the parable of the "Treasure Hidden in a Field" and the Pearl of Great Price.

    When Jesus says, "The kingdom of heaven is like...", he is speaking specifically about these divine expectations by the Lord of "his servants"...
     
  9. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Lets make this simple. Jesus said..if you were BLIND you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains....amen
     
  10. Doulos 7

    Doulos 7 New Member

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    Unfortunately we are not the ones that determine God's character! To those that claim that he is a monster, what about Jesus? God sent Him to die when He had committed no sin! Does that make Him unjust? In reality we read, "he who has believed an been baptized shall be saved" no middle ground! Therefore the view of heaven just got a little more narrow! (Matthew 7:13,14)
     
  11. Eric Abbott

    Eric Abbott New Member

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    Are you saying you do not share the same sense of urgency to tell the lost the good news of Christ as i do? If not, why? I'm not following what your saying. I just tell people about Christ, God has told me that's his command to me in his word, so that's what i do. And i do it with joy. As a follower of Christ you should do the same! I hope to have many people in heaven that will say it was me as a vessel which God used to reach them. And I'll continue to tell people everyday, as long as i live about Christ.

    Good bless!
     
  12. Eric Abbott

    Eric Abbott New Member

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    I kind of see where your getting your confusion from add to how it sounds contradicting. I get it. Had to re-read it several times at your reply. People will be saved through Christ. There is no hope because we all sin. We have God's law written on our hearts, we know what is wrong and what is right with knowledge.

    Me personally i can tell you that i don't deserve to go to heaven, I've messed up and sinned in my life. If it was not for me believing in Christ i would go to hell where i deserve to be.. If Christ did not die for me, i would be judged for my sin. If i never heard of Christ, i would be judged for my sin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

    More literal versions say:

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

    http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It exists, but you only quoted half the list (5 out of 10) of definitions. Why was that?

    You also didn't accurately quote what the first 5 say. Here is the complete list without your alterations:

    https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/perish.html

    Compare:

    https://studybible.info/strongs/G622

    https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G622/apollumi.htm

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=a)po/llumi

    http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=ἀπόλλυμι

    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/622.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  15. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    I think, not to put a too short a stop on it, that you have left out the crucial balance of God's judgment:

    God sends those that do not believe in Jesus, to Hell.

    But in Hell, God is there with them.

    It is therefore tolerable, to send people to Hell.
     
  16. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Good to see someone quoting the direct answer about those never having heard the gospel (though I think most people will need all the passage from verse 6 though 16). Also along with the Romans 2:6-16, it's helpful to look at Romans 4:15 and 5:13, that we are not accountable for what we don't know (and don't have conscience about). A more categorical answer about those not having heard the gospel isn't really known, unless we can know all the types of the "spirits in prison" who would be visited (1 Peter 3).
     
  17. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

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    The word “perish” is self-defined as absolute. It does not need further qualifying adjectives to be understood as you suggest are necessary…

    The word “perish” already means “completely destroyed permanently” as it is translated in the English language. Anyone that is told, “My son “perished” in the Iraq war”, understands that the son has “perished endlessly” and he won’t be reconstituted in this life. He is completely and irrevocably returned to the dust as far as his existence on the earth. Whether or not he will be raised to a “new” life or not, does not negate the fact that his “old” natural life has perished “endlessly”, and the hearer understands this in the English language. A tomato "perishes" endlessly. It is understood without adding the word "endlessly".

    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

    Should God have said, “…and unto dust shalt thou return endlessly”?

    Without a Savior to give Adam a new and different life, he would have “perished endlessly”. The fact that he, and we, have a Savior who creates a “New Creature”, does not negate the fact that the “old man” has “perished” permanently. Without Jesus to give us new and everlasting life, we "perish" permanently.

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

    The “new” creature, is not the “old creature” reconstituted. The “old creature” has passed away permanently (endlessly). Paul could have written, “Old things are passed away endlessly”, but didn’t because he knows that it is understood that “passed away” meant “endlessly”.

    You cited 1 Timothy 1:4 as the proof that “endless” needs to be associated with “perish” in order for us to understand that “perish” is “endless”…

    4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.​

    This is a completely different application. “Genealogies” are not necessarily “endless”, so Paul adds the word “endless” to qualify his point. When using the word, “perish”, there is no qualification needed. Everyone understands that “perish” is permanent, “endless”…


    You also cited Luke 1:33 to prove your point…

    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.​

    Again, this application has nothing to do with a self-defined word like “perish”. A distinction must be made with regard to a “reign” and a “kingdom” being “endless” because it is understood that reigns and kingdoms come and go. In this application, Luke must add “endless” to “reign” and “kingdom” otherwise it would be assumed that this reign and kingdom could pass away like every other reign and kingdom.
     
  18. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

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    As I'm sure you know, the further down the list of definitions that you go, the more abstract and less used meanings of the word being defined. The first 5 definitions are what are universally understood as the meaning of the word "perish".
     
  19. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the bible gives us broad strokes as to what the afterlife will bring us and "hell" is not a crystal clear subject biblical speaking.

    What is important in the "perish" part of John 3:16 is not something we should ever take comfort in and we should always seek and desire the eternal life. Where do people go who have never heard the gospel? they go to be judge by God as we all are and he will do as he will with them.
     
  20. Eric Abbott

    Eric Abbott New Member

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    Disagree. Hell is the absence of God and is full of regret the moment you get there.

    There is no painting of a good picture in hell. It's better to lose your eyes here on earth than be in hell.
     
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