Need your thoughts/ideas, and prayers wouldn't hurt either

[Antony in Tx]

Our 13 month old little girl who we adopted at birth is due to start a Mommy's day out at a local Baptist (SBC) church. It looks for all the world like a wonderful place, and a great learning environment. My wife, who is not Orthodox but was nominally raised Methodist, is very gung ho for this place. I, on the other hand have some concerns about how an SBC ministry may approach proselytizing, even to little toddlers and children. We are not very active in our parish for several reasons, so I don't have the comfort of falling back on a healthy frequent exposure to Orthodoxy to help me ensure that our child will be shown the right approach to God and to Salvation. I do pray with her almost daily at home, and my wife has very Orthodox views on Theology and Soteriology, she just has not gotten to the point of joining the Church. This is in large part due to her being ADD and not very patient with a slow and meticulous liturgy. She gets bored and impatient even though she says she likes church okay. That said, is it wrong for me to have reservations about what my daughter might be exposed to at a Protestant/Fundamentalist church? How do I convey my concern to my wife without turning it into a fight? And will praying fervently, and teaching my daughter of the right and straight path to God and how we should think of sin, redemption, and Christ be enough to overcome any obstacle? Your prayers are appreciated!

 

[Cappadocious]

What does your wife hope to get out of it?

 

[Antony in Tx]

"What does your wife hope to get out of it? "


A little time to herself for housework, personal maintenance, etc. Plus we live in a rural area, so this will be a chance for our child to be around other kids her age. It's not the Mother's Day Out that makes me nervous, it's the strong tie to a Southern Baptist church (who, at least in this area are infamous for strong proselytizing and badmouthing Catholics...I'm fairly sure that few if any of them know what Orthodox Christianity is).

 

[gzt]

I can't imagine it would be that bad, but if she comes home and starts smashing icons, nailing theses to the door, etc, that's a bad sign.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can't imagine it would be that bad, but if she comes home and starts smashing icons, nailing theses to the door, etc, that's a bad sign.

LOL! Somehow the image of that made me laugh!

They are very opposed theologically to Orthodox beliefs, of course. I can vouch for that. I've spent some time in the churches, went to one as a child, and taught children in Baptist churches.

But ... I don't think you have to worry while she is young. I don't know what your future plans are. I wouldn't want to form a strong tie that couldn't be severed later.

But for the first few years, I doubt she will get anything other than Jesus being a wonderful person who is God and who loves her. If they do explain the crucifixion, it's almost certainly going to be in terms of penal substitution, but that is actually not something they usually go into a lot of detail for young children, as it can be considered a little bit gruesome. Before age 5 or 6 it's not probably not going to be explained. And possibly not in detail for quite some time after, but you can't count on that.

Our programs usually included Bible stories. More of a "what happened" with very little emphasis on a "why" that would be a problem for Orthodoxy. You might get a little too much guilt from the expulsion from the Garden of Eden with a God who is quite angry. But I suspect there will be mostly stories of David and Goliath - trust in God. Daniel and the Lion's Den - trust in God. Jesus loves children. Noah - trust in God and bad people get in trouble. Going over all the lessons I've taught to the younger kids, I can't recall there are likely to be any problems. At least not for several years.

Everything is usually geared to getting the stories told on a child's level, and showing Jesus as someone who loves us, and God as someone to obey. Whether or not God is angry will vary, but that usually doesn't enter in until kids are at least 5 or 6, as I said. By 7 or 8 though, you're going to see some major divergence in teaching. Long-term it would be a problem. But at 13 months, you shouldn't have anything to worry about, and not for several years.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah, but one more thing. They very well MAY talk about assurance of heaven, from as young as about 4 or 5. Asking Jesus into your heart, and a promise of heaven. That kind of thing. But I don't expect they would be likely to try to explain that younger than about 4 years old or so. Just a heads-up.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can understand your reservations, I guess if I was in that boat I would allow it but pay attention, and anything false that they might start teaching the kid I would correct at home if not too much a problem.

 

[Dorothea]

Our 13 month old little girl who we adopted at birth is due to start a Mommy's day out at a local Baptist (SBC) church. It looks for all the world like a wonderful place, and a great learning environment. My wife, who is not Orthodox but was nominally raised Methodist, is very gung ho for this place. I, on the other hand have some concerns about how an SBC ministry may approach proselytizing, even to little toddlers and children. We are not very active in our parish for several reasons, so I don't have the comfort of falling back on a healthy frequent exposure to Orthodoxy to help me ensure that our child will be shown the right approach to God and to Salvation. I do pray with her almost daily at home, and my wife has very Orthodox views on Theology and Soteriology, she just has not gotten to the point of joining the Church. This is in large part due to her being ADD and not very patient with a slow and meticulous liturgy. She gets bored and impatient even though she says she likes church okay. That said, is it wrong for me to have reservations about what my daughter might be exposed to at a Protestant/Fundamentalist church? How do I convey my concern to my wife without turning it into a fight? And will praying fervently, and teaching my daughter of the right and straight path to God and how we should think of sin, redemption, and Christ be enough to overcome any obstacle? Your prayers are appreciated!

Does this Baptist community have a school? I'm not sure I understand exactly what your daughter will be attending, other than a daycare type of deal so that your wife can have some free time for herself, which is quite understandable. Are you saying that the Baptist church there has a school also and that is where your child will be going? If that is the case, I think it could be ok if you are teaching her the Orthodox faith at home and taking her to the Orthodox Church as regularly as you can. My oldest niece grew up going to a private Baptist school for all 12 years of her schooling, but my sister had my niece and her sister involved in the Orthodox Church - attending regularly - all the time while growing up, and so there was no confusion.

I don't think your concerns are not warranted. It's only natural to have some concerns. I will be praying for you all.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I feel reassured by what you have all shared. I appreciate that early on it may not be a problem. They do indeed have a school, but it is not likely we would send our daughter there after about age 3 or so. I guess I'm a little worried that my wife doesn't appreciate how we need to reinforce our beliefs (and remember, while not a member of the Orthodox Church she has VERY Orthodox attitudes) in order to counter the subtle messages that may be sent. I don't think these people would be malevolent, the would think they were very well in intentioned, but they have no idea how what they would be teaching might differ from another person's very valid POV.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, I can almost guarantee you that they are very well-intentioned (they believe they are helping to save a child's soul), and they likely have no idea actually that some of the theologies would be problematic to anyone. I certainly never knew from an Orthodox perspective while I was teaching Baptist children.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My three children attend a private Lutheran LCMS school. We love it. Yes, they teach Bible study and religion and prayer every day. Largely the lessons and subject matter is absolutely fine and nothing we Orthodox would disagree with, for the most part. Occasionally there might be a reference to a more Protestant mindset, and I address it. I remind the kids that we are guests of the school's church, and we must respect their vision, but we don't have to agree with it. I emphasize with my kids that they might hear "In Jesus's name, Amen" at the end of a prayer, and that we Orthodox pray to the entire Trinity and have a different style, but as long as we know that, we're ok.

I have spoken at length to my kids about the councils, our approach to the Atonement versus theirs, sola scriptura, and other things. They're smart kids. I'm a smart dad. We're doing fine.

Everyone has opinions about this. There is NO Orthodox position. My priest and our deacon FANATICALLY hate the idea of private Christian schools. They're prefer public. They think our Orthodox kids need to witness their faith in the public system. I humbly disagree. They also loathe the home schooling thing. I don't listen to our clergy at my parish about this topic. I roll my eyes and just move on. Priests have limitations.

As long as the experience isn't some super fanatic holy-roller wackadoodle cult, the older mainline protestant groups (Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican) aren't that bad. As long as you supplement, explain, expound, and guide your kids, trust in the Lord. He watches out for ya!

 

[Antony in Tx]

"As long as the experience isn't some super fanatic holy-roller wackadoodle cult..."

Well Gurney, I DID specify that this is Southern Baptist Convention!!!

As for private/religious vs public schools, my wife and I very much agree that we will likely go the public route. If we feel the need to go to a private school after 6th grade or so, it could likely be a boarding school whose practices we would vet heavily prior to any placement. We want our kids to be mainline Americans who also are good Orthodox Chrisitians.

 

[truefiction1]

Honestly, my biggest concern would be that your daughter, because she has now entered the critical age that we now have come to know is the crucial window of time where secure attachment must take place between a child's primary caregiver (in this case, her mother) and the child. Removing the baby from her mother for extended periods of time, while she is in this critical state of development, and placing her in the care of strangers could lead to the experience of acute separation anxiety/distress, and interfere with the optimum "epigenesis". The strongest bonding between human mothers and their babes does not begin until at least the second half of the first year, and may be complete by age 1. Still, your daughter is quite young, so you should make yourself aware of how important "secure attachment" is with regards to your child's lifelong emotional well-being. Try to remain sensitive to your child's emotional reaction to this new arrangement, is my only advice.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I work in the public system. If you knew HALF the stuff that goes on that parents are not aware of, you'd flip your lid, bruthuh! It's nuts. With the levels of bullying, vulgarity, sex talk at super young ages, the lack of respect for people of faith, the secular agenda and nonsense that goes on as well as the incompetent administration, I wouldn't recommend it. The funny thing is, I'd recommend the exact OPPOSITE of what you guys are planning (that's ok!). It's better, in my experience, to have a kid go private K-6, then go public junior high and high school. They've built up that foundation strongly and can cope. Going the reverse route almost always blows in the parents' faces. I've seen it! The kids start in public, hear about Miley Cyrus and "twerking" and cuss and talk sex, and wear what they want and hang out with libertine little twerps, work in an environment geared toward the low kids and really less structure, then they go to private where there is more structure and rules, the kids are VERY tight and close-knit because of years of being private together, and your kid sees them as snobby, goody-two-shoes uptight private Christian kids. That has happened on many occasions with kids who were at my school whose parents went private for junior high. They often come back to public because the kid doesn't want the structure and traditional values. You also face lousy numbers. My kids go to a school where you are like 18 kids to 1 teacher. This year in fourth grade there are only TWELVE kids in my class! My son gets a ton of attention, interaction, and the science experiments and hands-on opportunities are off the hook. They take twelve times the field trips that the public kids take as well. They get more art, much more participation in drama, they know their teacher better, they have daily religion class, memory verses, and they learn that Bible. My kids all know the Bible inside out. It's awesome. They also have prayer and collections where they encourage philanthropy.

At my school, public, where I teach the average is 30 kids to 1 teacher! It's cookie-cutter, loud, discipline nightmares, MANY "ED" kids (emotionally disturbed). You have no idea how many mentally ill kids there are at the public schools who are now "mainstreamed!" Your kid, if he/she is smart, will end up being the coach for low kids trying to pull them up rather than being challenged. Due to budgets and common core standards now, there is a huge learning curve for teachers. Frankly, I'm in the midst of a learning curve.

And what's crazy is you can't get over how many atheists and secular humanists there are in public ed.!

In the end, you end up explaining less stuff to your private kid (sola scriptura, etc.) than to your public kid (sex, bullying, more sex, vulgarity, perverse music and video games, yada yada, evolution, etc.) In California we have a "Harvey Milk Day." Bet your booty we'll have to celebrate it one of these fine days. LGBT "hero" of the month! Already California passed legislation to put gay and lesbians and bisexuals into the social studies program. It just hasn't kicked in yet. when it does, I will refuse to teach it. If called on it, I'll have to retire early. I hope it won't come to that.

I've watched dangerous, angry, mentally-ill ED kids tear apart students on the playground and beat the snot out of them. The principal's solution? Take away the bully's recess and PUT HIM IN THE KIDERGARTEN CLASS TO WORK WITH K KIDS! Yeah, I'm not kidding. And another kid who thrashed another student within an inch of his life on the playground got a behavior referral, but not before my principal took him into our teacher staff room and bought him a cookie and Pepsi, telling him, "I know you're a good kid." My friend and I have watched as principals have come and go, and they all don't want to deal with bullying, harassment, violence, and apathy. Why? Because if they suspend a kid, that goes to the district office. The D.O. keeps statistics on how many suspensions there are. If there are too many, the principal looks bad and gets called on it. So, principals turn a blind eye.

A good example is about 8 years ago we had a new fifth grade teacher. The sixth grade teacher down the hall was having tons of trouble with this insane kid in his class. The kid told the teacher to "go F himself" and was beating up kids in the classroom! The teacher knew the principal wouldn't do anything, so he kicked the kid out, sent him to the new fifth grade teacher. The kid got mad at the new teacher when he got up to leave because Tom, the new teacher, gently touched his shoulders indicating "sit down, you're staying put." The kid went and got a baseball bat and ran at Tom, trying to swing it into his head and pummel him. The next day the mom of this psycho kid filed charges against TOM for touching his shoulders! Never mind the kid used a baseball bat!

The special ed system is a joke. They just do paperwork and tell parents what they want to hear. Speech is a joke. They meet with kids twice a week for 10 MINUTES!!! Then they make it "seem" that so much is going on. Sometimes they don't call kids for weeks.

For "Christmas" kids can sing and learn "Grandma got run over a reindeer," but anything about Christ is O-U-T!

Public education is in ashes. I'm too far in to get out now, and I fight my butt off to make a difference. But trust me, with these parameters, the public's stupidity, bad parenting, bullies and the PTA having more power than teachers, and just the modern secular junk we shovel, I don't believe in the very system I work in!

"As long as the experience isn't some super fanatic holy-roller wackadoodle cult..."

Well Gurney, I DID specify that this is Southern Baptist Convention!!!

As for private/religious vs public schools, my wife and I very much agree that we will likely go the public route. If we feel the need to go to a private school after 6th grade or so, it could likely be a boarding school whose practices we would vet heavily prior to any placement. We want our kids to be mainline Americans who also are good Orthodox Chrisitians.

 

[Antony in Tx]

Thanks for your concern, TF. Daughter has been with Mommy pretty much since birth with only a few afternoons with Daddy while Mommy got to go the hair salon, etc. Other than that, hasn't been apart from Mommy for more than an hour at a time. She's now almost 14 mos old and very secure. Plus we are very aware of development. I'm a family doc, and my wife is a retired (14 yrs in the trenches) special ed teacher. We will be very attentive to her emotional well being.

 

[Antony in Tx]

Gurney, we live in rural Texas where the city will often still have a nativity scene on the town square and the small town we live in is safe enough that you could leave your doors unlocked for weeks at a time without a problem. Our police send out a weekly report and "vacation checks" and "elder welfare checks" vastly outnumber traffic issues. We had a real scandal a couple of years ago when we actually had two DUI arrests in one year! We kinda live in the antithesis of LA/Cali. That said, your concerns are noted.

 

[Anhelyna]

OK - can I take it back to the present for a little bit ?

Anthony has a 13 month old child - pretty much been with just Mommy and Daddy since her arrival with them.

She is now starting to grow up and also needs the stimulation of being , from time to time, with other children - she needs to learn how to interact with them , how to share toys etc , how to communicate with her limited speech. These things are all part of maturing.

Let me change it slightly now - we have a wonderful young married priest and his adopted 3year old . The little one is a joy - she will come to any of us in Church - we all help divert her from going to join Daddy in Church Snag is - they don't speak English at home so the little one is not learning any She's very much with them 24 hours a day [ oh and the dog ]

Over here we have government funded early years education - 5 mornings or afternoons from the age of 3 and this is where the little one should be now . She needs to socialise or formal education when she enters the system at 5 is going to be a nasty shock - how is our little one going to cope when she will not be able to communicate ?

Anthony - you are doing a marvellous job with your little one - you are looking ahead and realise that actually the separation of your daughter and her mother for a short period in controlled circumstances is good - go for it - you will have time to watch her mature and make decisions about formal education as she grows up a bit - you will be able to see how she relates to being with other people and thus judge what will be better educationally for her when that time comes. I've seen what happens at School entry - 2 classes of 24 children - 4 little white faces who were in fact the only children who spoke any English in the 2 classes. Their education was going to suffer until the other children learnt English - the other 20 kids couldn't mix with each other - they had been kept in the home with Mommy

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I wish you all the luck, trust me. I hope everything works out. They aren't really my concerns, so much, as my observations. Before I forget, I don't live in L.A. I am about 3.5 hours from L.A. I live in the super conservative, Texas-like Central Valley of California, and even here in the heart of blood-red conservative tea party old school traditional Republican values, farmers, cowboys, and good ole boys, the public system is rapidly becoming a cheesy, we're-all-winners, LGBT-obsessed, liberal bunch of loons! It can happen anywhere. I hope your experience is a good one! God bless you, your wife, and precious children.

Gurney, we live in rural Texas where the city will often still have a nativity scene on the town square and the small town we live in is safe enough that you could leave your doors unlocked for weeks at a time without a problem. Our police send out a weekly report and "vacation checks" and "elder welfare checks" vastly outnumber traffic issues. We had a real scandal a couple of years ago when we actually had two DUI arrests in one year! We kinda live in the antithesis of LA/Cali. That said, your concerns are noted.

 

[truefiction1]

Thanks for your concern, TF. Daughter has been with Mommy pretty much since birth with only a few afternoons with Daddy while Mommy got to go the hair salon, etc. Other than that, hasn't been apart from Mommy for more than an hour at a time. She's now almost 14 mos old and very secure. Plus we are very aware of development. I'm a family doc, and my wife is a retired (14 yrs in the trenches) special ed teacher. We will be very attentive to her emotional well being.

That is awesome!

 

[Antony in Tx]

Thanks again, everyone. I have come to some peace that I just need to be a better Daddy and make sure to attend to my child's spiritual development. (BTW...she is also adopted, we are unable to have children). I understand and appreciate the concerns, and we will make sure to let her understand that life is not always fair, and that this world is a fallen one, and that our only refuge is to follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles by way of our Church. With God's grace and our diligence, I pray that we can raise her to be a good person. Now it's time to go to our "meet the teachers night" so she can start the program next week.