Need prayers/ advice

[Columba7]

I am going to be open and honest. I hope my words don't seem silly or offensive. I never properly introduced myself so this will let you know a bit about me. My family and I live in an area where Orthodoxy isn't very accessible, in more ways than one. It takes two hours by car to reach the nearest parish and the priest and laity seem to care less whether we stay or go. I am lucky if I can get the priest to talk to me for 5 minutes every few months. Note that this is in spite of the fact that we have been parishioners for a couple years now.

Before becoming Orthodox I spent 5+ years discerning between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. During that time I must admit I always felt more spiritually/ emotionally pulled towards Catholicism. I loved the art, architecture, and and Western liturgical style (when it is done properly, mind you). In fact, unlike most converts to Orthodoxy I have spoken to, I prefer Western rite to Eastern rite liturgy. However, I was ultimately won over by the theology and historical case presented by Orthodoxy. It is funny, usually it is Roman Catholics who speak of intellectual conversions and Orthodox Christians who speak of more spiritual or experiential conversions

Well, I feel I have finally reached my breaking point and am tempted to switch over to the local Catholic parish. The priest doesn't mess around. He does the Mass properly and enforces Catholic moral teachings. It is also nice that I could walk to the parish in 15 minutes if I wanted. He has expressed interest in my family and I and the parish has been warm and accepting. Another factor is that my wife desperately wants to return to the Catholic faith. She doesn't like Eastern liturgy, doesn't care for the impersonal nature of the parish, and doesn't like having to sit in a car 4 hours just to go to liturgy for two hours when the nearest Catholic parish is in walking distance. Western Rite might be a good compromise, but there aren't any WR parishes in our area.

I ask for both your prayers and your advice during this trying time.

 

[ArmyMatt]

you gotta go where the Truth is and not compromise anything (although, WR is not a theological compromise. they are legit Orthodox). it is better for you to patiently and prayerfully endure, and then when the opportunity presents itself where a mission springs up or you move to an area where Orthodoxy is closer. remember all those guys and gals under communism would go years without Church.

keep steady brother, prayers for you!

 

[Columba7]

you gotta go where the Truth is and not compromise anything (although, WR is not a theological compromise. they are legit Orthodox). it is better for you to patiently and prayerfully endure, and then when the opportunity presents itself where a mission springs up or you move to an area where Orthodoxy is closer. remember all those guys and gals under communism would go years without Church.

keep steady brother, prayers for you!

That is another issue. I'm not sure how convinced I am that Orthodoxy is more true than Roman Catholicism anymore. Frankly, I have difficulties with aspects of both. I guess figuring out what is true will just be one more trial to deal with.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is another issue. I'm not sure how convinced I am that Orthodoxy is more true than Roman Catholicism anymore. Frankly, I have difficulties with aspects of both. I guess figuring out what is true will just be one more trial to deal with.

always seek after the Truth and God will provide. when you find the Truth, you will know where to go

 

[jckstraw72]

Lord have mercy!

 

[Dorothea]

I take it there's no Western Rite Orthodox Church in your area. That sounds like it would be the perfect fit for you. May God guide you in what you and your family should do.

 

[Columba7]

I take it there's no Western Rite Orthodox Church in your area. That sounds like it would be the perfect fit for you. May God guide you in what you and your family should do.

Unfortunately, no. The closest WR parish is a province over. In Canada that is a long way to drive.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Columba, it seemed like you were very defensive and combative when people criticized the pope or Catholicism on here, so I suspected you were on the fence, and it seems like you're trying to rationalize yourself into going Catholic. Been there, done that, and it takes one to know one. I know when someone is trying Catholicize themselves because it's convenient, easier, and expedient to do so.

But the facts are the facts. The Roman Church is a church of schismatics. Since the Great Schism, they have descended deeper into a legalistic and sometimes heretical body that has not only bastardized the liturgy into a train wreck, but they have created a monster of the papacy loading it with anachronisms and nonsense. The Catholic Church is a mess. Joining it because it's closer would mean you'd have to pretend the filioque stuff never happened, that the Pope is infallible and universally supreme when we know he's not, pretend indulgences and purgatory are legit, pretend that legalism is the way to relate to Our God, change perspective on Islam, replace the awesome Eucharist full of the leaven of Christ's fulfilled presence with flat Tron-like cardboardish wafers, endure the unnecessary state of having celibate, unmarried priests, and you'd have to become a quote machine a la Catholic Answers full of sound bytes that are out of context. You'd have to overlook the Donation of Constantine, throw some hate toward St. Photius and St. Gregory Palamas, and you'd have to pretend that the ancient Church was Roman Catholic, which we all know is pure boloney!

You'd have to do some SERIOUS rationalization and stretching of theological truths to arrive at convenience. I think it's a bad idea. Better to go once a month to the Divine Liturgy and be Orthodox than to go four times a month as a schismatic. Pray about it. Think hard. Turning your back on Holy Orthodoxy should be the last thing you'd EVER do in your life.

As Matt said, we have to follow Truth. If you seriously believe Truth is Catholicism, then you have a duty to sail the Tiber, but I think all of us in this subforum will passionately cling to what we know is True, and hope you'll stay a member of---the Holy Orthodox Church.

 

[Anhelyna]

Columba

Forgive me , a Catholic [ yes an Eastern Catholic ] butting in here - BUT do listen to the advice people are giving you. It's good advice , believe me.

I wrestled for about 6 years before I made my decision to go EC [ from the Anglican Church ] and it's a move I've never regretted. I have a round trip of 100 miles every week - and at my age that's tiring , but it's worth it. There's no way I can go to an RC Church. Should my Parish close [ it's the only one in the Country ] I will have either a 4 hour train journey [ $127 ] or a one hour Flight [ $80] to another EU country , and I know which I will do.

Sometimes I think about 'doxing - it would be easier - 10 mins away from my house by car . The easier journey is NOT the correct reason to make the change.

Think carefully about this and take your time.

 

[prodromos]

Have you written to your bishop? I think it is important that he be made aware of your situation and what is (or isn't) occurring at your parish.

 

[Columba7]

Just a point of clarity- I would never choose a different church just because it is more accessible. I would have to be able to reconcile and believe in its doctrines. I brought up the accessibility factor because, although it isn't the most important factor, it is a factor to consider, especially given that I am questioning how convinced I am that Orthodoxy is more true than Roman Catholicism. In the end, though, what I believe to be true will be the deciding factor, regardless of how far I have to travel.

Have you written to your bishop? I think it is important that he be made aware of your situation and what is (or isn't) occurring at your parish.

I have not. I don't want to be a snitch and I don't want to stir up any anger.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, I would talk to your priest (or a priest you respect) about the issues that you are having with the Faith. Godwilling he can help clear some things up.

 

[Columba7]

well, I would talk to your priest (or a priest you respect) about the issues that you are having with the Faith. Godwilling he can help clear some things up.

I have thought about switching from OCA to Greek. Since it is difficult to get ahold of my priest is it something I should just do, or do you think I should try to talk to my parish priest about it, even if it takes a while?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lex orandi, Lex credendi. Look at the Catholic Mass and the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Speaks for itself. You'd have to do one heck of a lot of revisionist anachronistic history self-talk to get to the point of rejecting the Orthodox faith in favor of schismatic medievalism, but God's blessings on the journey.

 

[gzt]

It takes two hours by car to reach the nearest parish...

Serious question that you don't necessarily need to answer for us: what's keeping you where you are and preventing relocation? Of course, sure, once you've established a family, it's hard to uproot.

 

[Columba7]

Lex orandi, Lex credendi. Look at the Catholic Mass and the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Speaks for itself. You'd have to do one heck of a lot of revisionist anachronistic history self-talk to get to the point of rejecting the Orthodox faith in favor of schismatic medievalism, but God's blessings on the journey.

I'm sure you mean well, but I don't care much for the oversimplified polemics. These are serious, difficult issues that require serious contemplation.

 

[Columba7]

Serious question that you don't necessarily need to answer for us: what's keeping you where you are and preventing relocation? Of course, sure, once you've established a family, it's hard to uproot.

That is just it. Family roots, employment, and cost of living. I'd rather not live in an expensive metro area.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sorry you feel that way. But I also don't care for the insults. I'm not oversimplifying anything. Each thing I've said you claim is more complex...really? So going for 1,000 years with a conciliar church in which all patriarchs were equal and where Rome had a primacy of honor and then suddenly 1,900 years later claiming that the Pope is infallible and universally supreme over the entire Church Catholic, you don't find that a tad odd? Ever heard of Keenan's Catechism? Ever hear of the Donation of Constantine forgery that was used to back up these bogus claims? I don't appreciate your charge that I'm speaking with polemics. I think maybe you're in a tender spot where you WANT to believe this stuff, but you don't want to really critically think about it, with all due respect. You may not like what I'm saying, but you need to hear it. If you have a church that takes 1900 years to finally proclaim a patriarch infallible and you need a host of anachronisms, forgeries, and PR to make it happen, you're in trouble.

As an Orthodox Christian, do you understand WHY we used leavened bread for the Eucharist? Do you understand why it is absurdity to go back in time and how it's a step in the wrong direction making it back into unleavened bread? How is that polemical or oversimplified?

What's polemical or oversimplified about bad theological nonsense like indulgences or purgatory?

I'm assuming since you became Orthodox, you've read the Fathers. Would it be overly-simplistic of me to say that you won't find narry a word of most modern Catholic theology in their writings but you WILL read Holy Orthodoxy there?

Do you really want to enter into a modernistic mess like the Mass with all the hand-holding kumbaya, the priest facing the people instead of the altar, strumming guitars, communion in the hand by a bunch of "extraordinary ministers" of the Eucharist instead of only by a priest, seeing "altar girls" while there is no incense? Do you want to sit in a pew as a spectator at Mass or be using your entire body to praise God? Do you want to follow the scholastics of the middle ages or the Fathers?

Why do you think my questions aren't of a "serious, contemplative" nature? I'm dead serious when I ask you these things. I think you just don't like what I'm asking. When you're about to spend money on a new car and you're already in debt, and you call you dad asking for advice, you DON'T want to hear him tell you NO! When you're about to marry a girlfriend you've only been dating for two weeks, you DON'T want to hear people tell you you're crazy. When you want to quit your job because you're fed up with your jerk of a boss, you don't want to hear STAY THE COURSE!

And when I tell you that you're making a serious mistake wanting to jump onto a ship sailing deep into the waters of schism, you claim I'm not thinking things through and just spitting polemics. Sorry, but you're the one who needs to put on the brakes and think. You're being tempted by the evil one, and if nobody points it out, well, I guess I will.

If you can safely say that you're ok with anachronism and Catholic thinking, then shoot, I don't know how any of us can help you except to just pray for you. If anything, this pope should scare you to death and give you pause!

I'm sure you mean well, but I don't care much for the oversimplified polemics. These are serious, difficult issues that require serious contemplation.

 

[prodromos]

I have not. I don't want to be a snitch and I don't want to stir up any anger.

This isn't about dobbing your priest in, this is about letting your bishop know your pastoral needs are not being met. I don't know if your priest is indifferent or simply swamped, but the situation will never improve if no one in authority knows about it.

 

[Anhelyna]

Prodromos speaks well

Bishops can't always know exactly what's happening - and sometimes they need to - please make sure you tell him.

I have always found that our Eastern Hierarchs , somehow , are far more approachable than Western Hierarchs and they do listen.