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Need info and scripture

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Living for Him, Apr 29, 2002.

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  1. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    Hi. :) I need some help from all of my fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus. I need any scriptures you have about the existence of the trinity. My brother and his wife are being sucked into a oneness pentecostal group,literally,and they have allowed me to try to "counter"any of their beliefs,with scripture of course. And I am too wet behind the ears to do this myself. Can anyone,will anyone be willing to give a little of their time to help me? It would be greatly appreciated and I know our God will bless you !!! :clap:

    Living for Him,Lori
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    Well my Pastor always uses this joke:

    When Jesus was baptised, the heavens opened and God said "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON IN WHOM I'M WELL PLEASED!"

    He'd joke, whaddya think! Jesus was a ventroloquist?!

    but on a more serious note, the danger in oneness pentecostal is that in trying to lump all into one, you water down the love relationship between the Father and Son. eg unless you understand how much the Father loved his Son, you cant appreciate how much it cost Him to sacrifice Jesus, ie you cant really app the value of the cross or your salvation.

    also Jesus who is now at the right hand of the Father is still fully man -- but in bodily glorified form. becos he's rep us (man), our advocate. the Bible says one day our bodies will be like his.

    such concepts will be watered down if we lump it all up.
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    well how about we start with the diety of christ...here is something I saved when ryan typed it up

    The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16: "I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been "sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).

    The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me." Then there is the baptismal formula: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). One name (God) -- yet three names!

    Yet we can know that Jesus is God because He said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8) .

    There are several other reasons to at least start believing our Lord Jesus Christ is God:

    Christ' Title and Name
    1) Lord means Deity
    The title Lord was first applied to Jesus by Simon Peter just prior to his declaration that "You are the Christ, the son of the Living God." Thereafter, Lord is increasingly applied to Jesus. Although the title of Lord may mean simply a master, to the Jews "Lord" was a reverent title of Deity. The Bible of their day was the Septuagint - a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The Septuagint translated the Hebrew word for God (YHWH) as the Greek word meaning Lord. In fact, it was the early church's refusal to agree that Caesar was Lord that caused the Christians to be martyred.
    2) Jesus means Savior
    Throughout the Holy Scripture, the Lord God adamantly proclaims that there is no other savior besides Himself. Yet Scripture also calls Jesus our savior, and his very name means "Savior".
    3) Christ means Messiah
    The very title of Christ means God's Holy One or God's Anointed One. The Jews looked forward to this person's coming as the Messiah.
    4) Son of God
    When the scribes and Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy because he was claiming to be equal with God. Jesus and Hebrews also explain that the Son of God means deity.
    5) Son of Man
    The Son of Man is Jesus favorite name for himself. This name reaches back to Daniel's name for the Messiah. By calling Himself the son of Man, Jesus was identifying Himself as the anointed one - the Christ.
    6) Lord of Glory
    When Jesus is called the Lord of Glory, this title refers specifically to His Deity.
    None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the "Lord of glory." - 1 Corinthians 2:8

    mesh with:

    Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you. - Isaiah 60:1-2

    7) Claimed to be One with the Father
    There is a oneness to the triune God that is beyond our comprehension. Not only is the Father in Jesus, but Jesus is in the Father. Truly, the Lord is one.
    8) Claimed to Be Lord of The Sabbath
    The Sabbath is the day is the day of rest at the completion of the creation. By claiming to be the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus is claiming to have been the one who rested on the seventh day.
    9) Claimed to be Lord over All
    There can only be one supreme commander in chief. And there can only be one Lord over all. Jesus is not competing with the Father, because Jesus too is YHWH - the Lord over All.
    10) Claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega
    Only six times in scripture does anyone claim to be the very first and the very last. Three times the LORD God makes this claim, and three times Jesus Christ makes the same claim.
    11) Made several "I Am" statements
    It seems no coincidence that Jesus Christ, when asked question concerning His nature, replied with the same answer that the Lord God used when Moses asked questions.
    12) Christ dared to forgive Sins
    Only one person can forgive a sin against God, and that's God. Yet Jesus repeatedly completely forgave sin.
    13) Christ spoke with authority
    All the other prophets spoke saying, "Thus Says the Lord,". But not Jesus. When He taught, the listeners marveled at His authority.

    If the greatest sin is breaking the greatest commandment, then worshiping anyone or anything besides God is the greatest sin possible. Yet, Jesus regularly received worship, and blessed those who worshipped Him. Is this blasphemy, or obeying the greatest commandment? 14) He is worshiped at His Birth
    At His entry into His Earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by shepards, wise men and angels.
    15) His disciples worshiped him
    Those closest to Christ, who heard His private teachings and prayed daily with Him, worshiped Christ!
    16) Those he healed worshiped him
    Those Christ healed responded with appropriate worship for their God!
    17) The Holy Scriptures worship Him
    So often a New Testament writer is explaining some aspect of God, or our salvation, and He breaks into a passage of worship and praise for God, and for Christ. That the God-breathed Holy Scriptures worship Christ is perhaps the most significant proof of the Deity of Jesus. If Christ is not God, then by this proof, the entire foundation of Christianity just came tumbling down!
    18) Heaven worships him
    The book of Revelation is an incredible glimpse into the worship of heaven. The focal point of the book is worship directed toward our Lord Jesus Christ. One hundred million angels, the twenty-four elders and the four heavenly being can't be wrong.
    19) Angels are commanded to worship him
    God commands the angels to worship Christ! Is the Lord God committing idolatry?
    20) Every Knee shall bow
    In Paul's great hymn of the incarnation, the song concludes with the bold statement that every knee, believer or not, all will bow before Christ - and declare that Jesus Christ is LORD!

    Evidence of Christ's Divine Nature
    21) Self-Existent
    Christ has no beginning - as only God can claim
    22) Omnipotent
    Christ has all power - as only God can have!
    23) Omnipresent
    Christ's divine nature is infinite and without boundary - as only God can be!
    24) Omniscience
    Christ knows every secret - as only God can know!
    25) Holy
    Christ is holy and righteous - as only God is holy.
    26) Good
    Christ is good - as only God is good.
    27) Just
    Christ is fair and just, and judge of everyone - as only God shows justice.
    28) Eternal
    Christ is eternal, pre-existent and the ancient of days - as only God is beyond the markers of time.
    29) Immutable
    Christ is the same today, yesterday, and forever, consistent, unchanging - as only God is immutable.
    30) The Creator
    Christ is no other than the one who spoke time, the universe, the laws of physics, and your soul into being - as only God can do!
    31) Sustainer of Life
    Christ is the one who sustains all life - as God is the source of life
    32) The King
    Christ is the King of the Universe - as only God can rule!
    33) sends forth the Holy Spirit
    Christ sends forth the Comforter - as only God can send forth His Spirit.
    34) The Light of the World
    Christ is the source of spiritual light and truth and the light of heaven - as only God is the source of truth.

    The Old Testament Prophets Prepared for the Messiah as YHWH Himself
    35) Isaiah
    The Prophet spoke of the Messiah as the Mighty God!
    36) John the Baptist
    The final prophet of the Old Testament made straight the path of the Lord
    37) Psalms
    Several Psalms speak to the Son as God.
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    The Apostle John Taught that Jesus is God
    38) John's Gospel Prelude
    The Gospel of John opens with the clearest possible way that John can say that Christ both "is God" and "is with God". John say that the word became flesh and tabernacled among His people.
    39) John calls Jesus True God
    In one of John's letters, he directly calls Jesus the true God.
    40) Jesus blessed Thomas' confession that Jesus was his God
    John records Thomas' confession that Jesus was his Lord and his God. And Jesus responds by blessing the confession.

    The author of Hebrews taught the Deity of Christ
    41) The letter to the Hebrews revels the Glory of Jesus' Deity
    Hebrews opens the Holy Scriptures (O.T.) and shows how Jesus is higher than the angels by showing that Jesus is God Himself. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
    - Hebrews 1:3

    Wow! How clearer can it get? Christ's Divinity means that He is the God in the flesh. This verse reminds me of the Transfiguration. When Jesus gave his best friends a glimpse of His Divine glory.

    42) The Builder of all things
    In my personal favorite passage of Deity, the writer of Hebrews weaves a wonderfully concise progression of logic explaining that Jesus is greater than Moses, because Jesus is the builder (of the law, and of the church)and the builder is God.
    43) The Father calls The Son God
    The writer of Hebrews opens the Old Testament and shows points to a dialog between God the Father and God the son, wherein the Father calls the Son "Oh God"! - Hebrews 1:8

    Paul the Apostle teaches that Jesus is God Incarnate
    The Apostle Paul persecuted Christians before meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. The glory of God shinning from Jesus blinded Paul. Paul's personal encounter with the Deity of Christ changed him. Paul became a bondservant of Jesus, an apostle called to preach the gospel.

    44) the Incarnation Hymn
    Paul's famous incarnation hymn guides the reader with Christ as Christ humbles Himself and becomes a man. Christ is then obedient to the cross and is then glorified by the Father. -Philippians 2: 5-11
    45) Jesus is our great God
    Paul writes to his friend, Titus, with the great hope of the appearance of Jesus Christ, our Great God and Savior. - Titus 2:13 Literally in the Greek it reads: "Great God Also Savior (of us) Jesus Christ"
    46) Jesus is the bodily image of God
    In several passages, Paul explains that Jesus is the God made visible.
    47) Christ is God of all
    In a passage of praise and worship to Jesus Christ, Paul praises Christ as God, over all, blessed and eternal.
    48) It was God who bled on the cross
    In a sad farewell to a beloved congregation Paul says the church was bought by God's blood. - Acts 20:28
    49) The Incarnation is the Mystery of Godliness
    To Timothy, Paul's protege, he writes that the incarnation is the great mystery of Godliness.

    But ed, I know you have some objections (as does Michael. SO let me me post them here:

    But what about?
    Those who deny the deity of Christ offer the following objections. 1) Jesus is the firstborn
    The objection: If Jesus is the firstborn then he was born, right? So, how can a God have a beginning?
    The answer: Firstborn is the position of greatest honor in the family and is more of a title than actually saying Christ is born. Also, firstborn refers to Christ as the first to be raised from the dead with a glorified body.
    2) Jesus is the mediator between man and God
    The objection: How can Jesus be between God and man and be God at the same time?
    The answer: Christ is the perfect mediator because He is both man and God. How could a mere man serve as God's mediator?
    3) Jesus prayed to the Father
    The objection: If Christ is God he would not need to pray to communicate with the Father.
    The answer: Jesus prayed as a human in submission and worship to His Father.
    4) Jesus Called God His God.
    The objection: Jesus worshiped God as His God. If Jesus thought God was God why don't we take the same position and simply worship God and not Jesus?
    The answer: In submission and worship to the Father, Jesus called God the Father His God. (see Psalm 45.)
    5) Jesus said he didn't know the hour of His return and Jesus learned as a human would learn.
    The objection: If Jesus is God how can He not know the hour of His return? And how come Jesus had to learn anything at all?
    The answer: Jesus set aside some of the glory of deity when he chose to become human (Phil 2).
    6) How could God die?
    The objection: God can't die. But Jesus died. How is that?
    The answer: Jesus' human nature did die. But His divine nature did not die.

    As you can see, the evidence is overwhelming. I urge you ed and Michael to both reconsider the deity of Christ as is proven in scripture.
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    Of course I usually point to how Jesus accepts workship, which, if he is not God, is a big no no then look at rev 22:8-9 to show what happens if you're not God and someone worships you. He accepts worship in Luke 24:52 and John 20:28
  6. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    :wave: WOW guys...thanks. You are great !!!! :clap:

    I can't wait til I get to the point where I just have all of this knowledge stored in my heart and brain !

    Living for Him,Lori
  7. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    Because this subject can lead to a long fruitless conversation...as it has for me in the past.
    I finally took a long hard look at this verse

    16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    God is a mystery...and who are we to say, or teach that we have HIM as a whole all figured out. The bible says its a mystery, why are we as believers spending so much time trying to figure it out? There are verse to prove and disprove the trinity..to me that means, IT'S a MYSTERY that will be reavealed in heaven.
    Just a thought.
    I had many debates with my friend over this.
    If you really feel compelled....
    How about this....
    We as believers in Christ have a body, a soul and spirit.
    After we are saved, we are "reborn" in God's image. Now that we are born in his image....where and who is Gods body, soul and spirit??
    You do the math
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    United States
    Hey Lori! Hope these help:

    Acts 5:3,4
    But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men BUT TO GOD."

    Also Christ prescribed baptism "in the name (singular: one God, one name) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - three Persons who are the one God to whom Christians commit themselves:

    Matt. 28:19
    Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name (it doesn't say names) of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit

    Note: (italicized portion above is my addition for clarity's sake)

    The blessing of 2 Cor 13:14 is trinitarian,:

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

    as is the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Rev. 1:4,5:

    Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, AND from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, AND from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

    As you can see here, it calls for the grace and peace of "Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Obviously, that wasn't the Father, that was Jesus, who is also God, from whom all grace and peace originate.

    In this verse from Revelations it is important to note that John includes the Spirit between the Father and the Son only because he teaches that the Spirit is divine in the very same sense as are the Father and the Son.

    The three personal "subsistences" (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being "I" in relation to two who are "You," and each having the full divine essence of God, the specific existence that belongs to God alone.

    God is not one person who plays three separate roles; this is the error called "modalism." Nor are there three gods who only seem to be one because they always act together; this is "tritheism."

    The theologian B. B. Warfield put it simply: "when we have said these three things, then - that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person - we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness."

    God bless.
  9. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    Thankyou ! It did help. Thankyou for your time !! :wave:
  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Awesome posts, Louis! Very comprehensive.

    Jesus was the Word, "in the beginning with God, and GOD WAS THE WORD; and the Word flesh became and tabernacled among us" (direct from the Greek in John 1). In Hebrews 6, at the end, it says "This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast and which enters within the veil (do you understand that that's all about?), where Jesus has entered before us, having become a priest forever according to the order of Mechizedek". Continuing in chapter 7, it's still talkin' about Jesus: "For this Melchizedak, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings...." (Didn't Abraham live long before Jesus???) "...without father, without mother, without genealogy, having NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE, but made like the Son of God, He abides a priest forever."

    Jesus had no beginning, He has always existed. Jesus is God. And yet---Jesus does not know all of the things the Father does (Matt24:36), Jesus talks to the Father; clearly they are separate people. The only explanation, is they are separate persons of one God. If that's confusing, don't worry---we're finite, He's not.

    We don't hafta understand everything about the Universe...

    (Reformationist nailed the only verse I know of the plainly equates the Holy SPirit with God, in Acts 5)...

  11. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    Thankyou Ben,and you are right,they hold fast to the scripture there in Acts 5...they also hold onto when Jesus ascended,he says,go and babptize in MY name.So therefore,the say that baptizing in the Father ,the Son and the Holy ghost ,then became obsolete. That you MUST be baptized in Jesus name only .Then there's also the "you must speak in tongues to get into heaven" also...oooooh.... I'm so frustrated. I feel like I am fighting for their souls and sometimes I feel like I'm losing. Just feels like we keep going back and forth and back and forth.To me,Gods truth is so simple...why do people want to change it,complicate it...I guess I just need to pray harder...for perseverance.

    Godbless you all,Lori
  12. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    United States
    I commend what you're doing if it's because you love them and you desire that they come to a fuller understanding of God's Word. I would just advise you to remember, it is God who will bring about things, not man (or woman). Just remember to always ensure your motive is because you love them and also that you respond in godliness. God is much bigger than anything you might be able to say, or anything they might be able to do. God has also brought this circumstance into your life to produce compassion for your brother and his family and to help you learn to trust that He will accomplish all He has set out to accomplish. God never loses anyone.

    God bless.
  13. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    I did my research and with your help,sent her every scripture and verse i could come up with to refute her beliefs,now she is giving me the scripture

    Matthew 7:14
    "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    Saying they know the real truth because they have truly asked for it.And the truth is...you must be baptized in Jesus name only ,you must have the gift of speaking in tongues,because only then are you truly filled with the holy spirit,and only then can you truly be saved ,and you must be baptized in Jesus name only ,that once he ascended into heaven,he said "go and baptize in Jesus name"....

    Any other suggestions? For me?
    Thanks you guys,Lori
  14. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    United Ch. of Christ
    Now this is more like it! A good thread. The trinity is what I have the most fun defending, outside of salvation through faith in Christ.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 (literal translation: Hear Israel, Jehovah God is one LORD.)shawmah Yisrawale Yehovah elohim eckawd Yehovah

    Isaiah 9:6 (I think)
    Luke 4:12
    John 20:28
    John 10:30
    John 1:1 & 14
    "Your sins are forgiven" (quote from Jesus)
    Romans 9:5

    I can have more later on if you want. Why do you need them if you don't mind me asking?
  15. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    My brother and his wife have become involved in the Oneness movement. Or Oneness Pentecostal. And she has challenged me more or less to come up with evidence to prove to her that I know she is wrong ! To me,it's not a game or a contest. It is my brothers and her soul. I want them to be in Heaven with me. Period. So I am doing my best...with a lot of help from people here at CF. :clap: Thanks again !

  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    hmm..if she doesn't accept the authority of the bible then you can't really do much. Its like beating your head on a wall. If she doesn't accept the multitude of verses tell her you will pray for her. that's about all you can do. Secret knowledge isn't for just her. God has reveiled it to everyone, not a select few. Col 1:26-27
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Louis! Very good!

    I'm proud of you!

  18. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    I could give you a few hundred scriptures, and verses too. But you have already been given more than you can deal with now. So I will forgo that unless you are collecting them.

    But, the more serious issue now is, how do people prevent themselves from getting "sucked in" by nonsense and heresy.
    It is pre kindergarten type basic Christianity.

    FIRST: Make sure you have truly had a spiritual re-birth, or simply SAVED!

    Second: Once you have done step one then obey the most basic of all sciptures for Christians, II Timothy 2:15: " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

    The operative word here is S-T-U-D-Y. Many people have the idea that READ is the same as STUDY. It is not! It is very very verfy different. If you STUDY God's Word, praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you will NOT be so easily "sucked in" to false teaching. I pray they will become sensitive to the Holy Spirit and allow Him to lead them out of that incredibly silly FALSE teaching of satan.

    Show them the truth, but do not debate or argue with them. That will only increase thier "stubborness" and cause them to harden thier hearts and "dig in" for the battle.

    Remember Isaiah 55:11. You simply tell them and let God do the work.

    "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
  19. Living for Him

    Living for Him RTrue24Fan For Rocky

    Thankyou Gerry. I needed that, to be honest I have been pretty discouraged here the last couple of days, and have just kind of put it aside these last couple of days. You're right. Thanks again...

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