Need help, seriously questioning.

[Steve Petersen]

doesn't really matter and I don't care - I didn't ask about christian history.

Right, you decided to launch into a rant about Jews who don't believe in Jesus.

 

[Dkh587]

1 john 4:2-3 is an argument against gnostics who believed that Messiah was a spirit who momentarily inhabited the body of Jesus. Thus they denied that Christ had 'come in the flesh.' This is not a blanket condemnation of those who do not believe in Jesus, but those who believe he was not Christ incarnated.

It doesn't say that at all. To the contrary, it says anybody denying Jesus is the Messiah is anti-Messiah. It doesn't matter if you're a "Jew", American, African, Chinese,
European, Australian etc

Anybody denying the Son denies the Father and is anti-Messiah.

 

[Dkh587]

You can keep using the term as you please, but it really does not strengthen your argument. This would be especially a poor way to term it if you are trying to convert Jewish people - or someone leaning that way like me. But I am not anti-Messiah or anti-Jesus, or even anti-Messiah Jesus....I am searching for truth.

Perhaps let us all continue on with the subject rather than getting hung up on a particular term? I am not absolving myself from participating in the argument, I certainly did....but I don't think it is going anywhere.

Do you believe Jesus is the Messiah? If so, you are NOT an anti-Messiah

Do you believe that Jesus is not the Messiah? If so, then you are an anti-Messiah

It's really not that difficult to grasp.

 

[tampasteve]

It doesn't say that at all. To the contrary, it says anybody denying Jesus is the Messiah is anti-Messiah. It doesn't matter if you're a "Jew", American, African, Chinese,
European, Australian etc

Anybody denying the Son denies the Father and is anti-Messiah.

Do you believe Jesus is the Messiah? If so, you are NOT an anti-Messiah

Do you believe that Jesus is not the Messiah? If so, then you are an anti-Messiah

It's really not that difficult to grasp.

Ok, call them and me whatever you please, throw that first stone. It really does not matter, if they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah then they can be anti-whatever. They looked at the evidence and found it lacking, they looked at the prophesies and say that it just does not add up all the time. The look at the scriptures in the NT and see some serious discrepancies.

This where I am at, this is what these people have to contend with. I do not know if Jesus is the Messiah, I am searching.

I appreciate your contribution to this conversation, but I am going to put you on "block" it really is not going anywhere for me and is going into a place I do not need to be at right now.

 

[Dkh587]

Right, you decided to launch into a rant about Jews who don't believe in Jesus.

Me stating who is and isn't anti-Messiah according to what the scriptures say is not launching into a rant.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish people as a counter missionary. The obvious implications for someone that is not Jewish, as I am not, is that the lecture series makes one question one's belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For various reasons I stopped pursuing the track at the time, but recently started again. At this point my faith in Christ is seriously lacking, almost to apostasy. Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Has anyone listened to these lectures or read similar information? There is a lot to write about, but essentially it boils down to:
1. Jesus could not be the Messiah (and many reasons are given)
2. It is possible that the OT is true while the NT is not - and many flaws of the NT are pointed out.
3. If Judaism was the true religion up until the crucifixion and resurrection, then it stands to reason that Judaism would be the "true" religion still if Jesus was not the Messiah and Christianity is not true.
4. There are many scriptures that point to the Law of Moses not ever changing, which is opposed to Paul's teachings. However, this could still work on a MJ level.
5. Many of the "messianic" verses pointing to Jesus as the Messiah are misinterpreted on purpose or on accident by Christians in the OT.

I can link to some of the audio or video if you like, but each lecture is long - around 75 minutes.

Why did you start listening to Rabbi Singer? Were you doubting Christianity, drawn more to Judaism, or what?

 

[tampasteve]

Why did you start listening to Rabbi Singer? Were you doubting Christianity, drawn more to Judaism, or what?

A bit of both to be honest. At the time I had a crisis of faith due to a major personal relationship issue that had been ongoing for a few years. I was drawn more into the Bible, but with that came questions about certain discrepancies in the NT. Researching those led me to Rabbi Singer as well as other Christian and Jewish teachers.

 

[chunkofcoal]

A bit of both to be honest. At the time I had a crisis of faith due to a major personal relationship issue that had been ongoing for a few years. I was drawn more into the Bible, but with that came questions about certain discrepancies in the NT. Researching those led me to Rabbi Singer as well as other Christian and Jewish teachers.

You said: "At the time I had a crisis of faith due to a major personal relationship issue that had been ongoing for a few years." So you were doubting God because of this?

Just trying to understand what led you to the point you are at. It might be helpful to those who'd like to respond to your questions and doubts.

 

[tampasteve]

You said: "At the time I had a crisis of faith due to a major personal relationship issue that had been ongoing for a few years." So you were doubting God because of this?

Just trying to understand what led you to the point you are at. It might be helpful to those who'd like to respond to your questions and doubts.

Sure, at the time I had converted to Catholicism from Protestantism and attended a Catholic church for around 12 years. I was adamantly Catholic. However, my wife started having an online affair with one person and eventually an in person affair with another/s (not really sure if it was one or more) man. We ended up divorcing, but prior to that I had started to search the why things were not going as I believed G-d would have for my life, I was following His Church to the letter, and delved into scripture more, really got into it as much as I could. But this led me to searching different translations, different explanations of passages, and eventually to the discrepancies of the NT. That research led me to Jewish scholars and Rabbi Singer. I eventually just stopped to "give it to G-d" and continued as a Christian, but the doubt remained far back in my mind.

 

[Dirk1540]

Great suggestion - wish I'd been thinking and had it come to mind. Mike Brown and his circle were good friends of mine and had a big part in my spiritual formation along the way.

I'd love to compare notes with him again, but rather doubt I'd really get the chance. Might have to see about looking them up though.

Agreed. For years I felt like the arguments for the prophecies seemed kind of 'Pencilled In' until I found Dr Brown's material.

 

[CherubRam]

And is non-Trinitarian?

I'd be curious to ask you about that, but it can't be discussed in Christian areas of CF.

Send a PM and ask your question.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Sure, at the time I had converted to Catholicism from Protestantism and attended a Catholic church for around 12 years. I was adamantly Catholic. However, my wife started having an online affair with one person and eventually an in person affair with another/s (not really sure if it was one or more) man. We ended up divorcing, but prior to that I had started to search the why things were not going as I believed G-d would have for my life, I was following His Church to the letter, and delved into scripture more, really got into it as much as I could. But this led me to searching different translations, different explanations of passages, and eventually to the discrepancies of the NT. That research led me to Jewish scholars and Rabbi Singer. I eventually just stopped to "give it to G-d" and continued as a Christian, but the doubt remained far back in my mind.

I think probably most crisis of faith moments come from when our lives aren't going the way we'd hoped. One of the hardest things to really take to heart is:
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
That isn't just a Christian idea or a 'Paulism" - I've found the same kind of idea in some Jewish writings, too.

Thank you for answering my questions. I bet there are others here who have had similar questions, and struggles.
Just take a deep breath and ask God "Where do I go from here?"

 

[tampasteve]

I found this group online:
The Union of Conservative Messianic Jewish Synagogues
Does anyone know much about them? I think that I can abide by their principles of faith:
Principles of Faith - Union of Conservative Messianic Jewish Synagogues

 

[dougangel]

As for Jer. 31, in light of the other scriptures showing that the Mosaic Covenant was forever we can read that to mean that the "new covenant" is a renewal of the "old covenant" that the people would worship in mind, soul, body, and belief, not in empty gestures. We cannot isolate Jer. 31 from the previous scripture saying that the covenant would be "forever". It is either forever or it is not.

Well your just changing that and totally ignoring it.
but can you explain how modern people can actually keep Mosaic law ?

 

[tampasteve]

Well your just changing that and totally ignoring it.
but can you explain how modern people can actually keep Mosaic law ?

I do not think I am really ignoring it, rather the other interpretations are ignoring earlier scripture that states the law is forever. Or perhaps I misunderstand your statement, which I am possibly doing. If you can clarify I would be happy to look at it again.

But you are right, some parts of the Law cannot be kept as there is no Temple. Outside of that the Law can be attempted to be kept, but one will fail, just as one fails in Christianity. The key at that point is atonement and trying to do better. Let us not forget that even in the Old Covenant there was a plan for non-Jewish people (the Noahide Law). Remembering that helps keep the writings of Paul in better perspective, I believe.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Well your just changing that and totally ignoring it.
but can you explain how modern people can actually keep Mosaic law ?

What would prevent modern people from keeping Mosaic law?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Israel was commanded only to make sacrifices in the place God had chosen to place His name (Deut. 12:5.) It would have been a sin to do otherwise. There is no Temple for this anymore in Jerusalem. So by NOT making sacrifices today Jew are actually obeying the commandment of God.

 

[dougangel]

What would prevent modern people from keeping Mosaic law?

Have you read Leviticus lately ????

 

[dougangel]

What would prevent modern people from keeping Mosaic law?

The punishment laws. These are all capital offences.
Hasn't modern Israel changed these laws.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Send a PM and ask your question.

Done and thank you for the offer.