Need help, seriously questioning.

[tampasteve]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish people as a counter missionary. The obvious implications for someone that is not Jewish, as I am not, is that the lecture series makes one question one's belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For various reasons I stopped pursuing the track at the time, but recently started again. At this point my faith in Christ is seriously lacking, almost to apostasy. Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Has anyone listened to these lectures or read similar information? There is a lot to write about, but essentially it boils down to:
1. Jesus could not be the Messiah (and many reasons are given)
2. It is possible that the OT is true while the NT is not - and many flaws of the NT are pointed out.
3. If Judaism was the true religion up until the crucifixion and resurrection, then it stands to reason that Judaism would be the "true" religion still if Jesus was not the Messiah and Christianity is not true.
4. There are many scriptures that point to the Law of Moses not ever changing, which is opposed to Paul's teachings. However, this could still work on a MJ level.
5. Many of the "messianic" verses pointing to Jesus as the Messiah are misinterpreted on purpose or on accident by Christians in the OT.

I can link to some of the audio or video if you like, but each lecture is long - around 75 minutes.

 

[Alicia Schout]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish people as a counter missionary. The obvious implications for someone that is not Jewish, as I am not, is that the lecture series makes one question one's belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For various reasons I stopped pursuing the track at the time, but recently started again. At this point my faith in Christ is seriously lacking, almost to apostasy. Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Has anyone listened to these lectures or read similar information? There is a lot to write about, but essentially it boils down to:
1. Jesus could not be the Messiah (and many reasons are given)
2. It is possible that the OT is true while the NT is not - and many flaws of the NT are pointed out.
3. If Judaism was the true religion up until the crucifixion and resurrection, then it stands to reason that Judaism would be the "true" religion still if Jesus was not the Messiah and Christianity is not true.
4. There are many scriptures that point to the Law of Moses not ever changing, which is opposed to Paul's teachings. However, this could still work on a MJ level.
5. Many of the "messianic" verses pointing to Jesus as the Messiah are misinterpreted on purpose or on accident by Christians in the OT.

I can link to some of the audio or video if you like, but each lecture is long - around 75 minutes.

You might have problems recognizing Jesus as the Saviour of the World.
He died so that we can live. This means when we believe in Him and do His will as being obedient to the commandments of the Lord according to the new testament, born-again by the Spirit, baptize by water and the Holy Spirit in the Name of the Father and the Son we obtain eternal life.

This flesh of us will die, but our soul will be saved through the blood of Jesus, because we live in Him and die in Him.

Yes Jesus is the Saviour, the Messiah. He was cruxified by his own, the Jews. He is not one of the prophets. He is the son of the living God.
He will come back again. We should be ready for his second coming.

 

[tampasteve]

You might have problems recognizing Jesus as the Saviour of the World.
He died so that we can live. This means when we believe in Him and do His will as being obedient to the commandments of the Lord according to the new testament, born-again by the Spirit, baptize by water and the Holy Spirit in the Name of the Father and the Son we obtain eternal life.

This flesh of us will die, but our soul will be saved through the blood of Jesus, because we live in Him and die in Him.

Yes Jesus is the Saviour, the Messiah. He was cruxified by his own, the Jews. He is not one of the prophets. He is the son of the living God.
He will come back again. We should be ready for his second coming.

I appreciate you taking the time to write to me. However, I am not sure that it really helps my situation.
I understand the role of Jesus in mainline and non-Messianic Judaism Christian theology very well. Perhaps you did not see the post was in the Messianic Judaism forum? The role as you describe is exactly one of the main issues I am having. At the moment I lean towards Judaism, but I could be brought back to a Messianic faith, I believe....but it is a struggle.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish people as a counter missionary. The obvious implications for someone that is not Jewish, as I am not, is that the lecture series makes one question one's belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For various reasons I stopped pursuing the track at the time, but recently started again. At this point my faith in Christ is seriously lacking, almost to apostasy. Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Has anyone listened to these lectures or read similar information? There is a lot to write about, but essentially it boils down to:
1. Jesus could not be the Messiah (and many reasons are given)
2. It is possible that the OT is true while the NT is not - and many flaws of the NT are pointed out.
3. If Judaism was the true religion up until the crucifixion and resurrection, then it stands to reason that Judaism would be the "true" religion still if Jesus was not the Messiah and Christianity is not true.
4. There are many scriptures that point to the Law of Moses not ever changing, which is opposed to Paul's teachings. However, this could still work on a MJ level.
5. Many of the "messianic" verses pointing to Jesus as the Messiah are misinterpreted on purpose or on accident by Christians in the OT.

I can link to some of the audio or video if you like, but each lecture is long - around 75 minutes.

This may help: Audio Series: 26 Answers to 26 Reasons

 

[tampasteve]

This may help: Audio Series: 26 Answers to 26 Reasons

Thank you, I will download and listen to those, from the titles they look like exactly what I am looking for!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi TampaSteve,

This is not my home forum, so I won't put forth any teaching. I will simply say ... it reminds me of the people among Christians who claim the whole early Church was corrupted and everything wrong. The answer is the same. If you wish to know, there are TONS of materials preserved, other letters between the different Churches in the early years, historic information about the martyrs for several centuries and what they died for, what they believed. And indeed, the Church grew out of Judaism, and in many ways it WAS still the faith ... they just missed Christ.

It is in Judaism's own interest to discredit Christ - they tried to do it while He was alive, and continued after His death and resurrection. Nothing new.

But you don't have to take the word of a rabbi of Judaism who is opposed to the faith twenty centuries later. The words of those who lived the faith right after Christ are available. Much has been translated and is on ccel.org.

And it goes without saying ... if your faith is weakened, that is no time to open your doors to the enemies of the Cross.


I pray you find what you need. God be with you.

 

[dougangel]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish

Israel is no longer a theocracy. The law of Moses can no longer be obeyed. Particularly the ceremonial laws and the administrative laws of Moses.

Christ made certain truth claims. HE can't just be a prophet.

Jesus is the spiritual temple the physical temple has been destroyed

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hi TampaSteve,

This is not my home forum, so I won't put forth any teaching. I will simply say ... it reminds me of the people among Christians who claim the whole early Church was corrupted and everything wrong. The answer is the same. If you wish to know, there are TONS of materials preserved, other letters between the different Churches in the early years, historic information about the martyrs for several centuries and what they died for, what they believed.

It is in the Jews' own interest to discredit Christ - they tried to do it while He was alive, and continued after His death and resurrection. Nothing new.

But you don't have to take the word of a Jewish teacher who is opposed to the faith twenty centuries later. The words of those who lived the faith right after Christ are available. Much has been translated and is on ccel.org.

And it goes without saying ... if your faith is weakened, that is no time to open your doors to the enemies of the Cross.


I pray you find what you need. God be with you.

Not liking the tone of this post.

The first believers were Jews. Acts tells us that many thousands became believers and that many priests were obedient to the faith.

Paul says the Jews are beloved for the sake of the fathers, that their gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[tampasteve]

It is in Judaism's own interest to discredit Christ - they tried to do it while He was alive, and continued after His death and resurrection. Nothing new.

Is it though? That would imply some sort of multi-millennial conspiracy. To believe that means one must believe that the Jewish people actually do believe that Jesus was some sort of divine person or even the Messiah, but continue to reject him for an unknown reason. Rather, it seems they mostly just point out why he was not the Messiah and move on from thinking about him. It seems that there is just a lot of evidence against Jesus being the Messiah, which is what the Jewish people reject about Jesus and is the foundation of Christianity as is typically practiced. The Jewish people at the time and now really do not pursue conversion, so why is it in their interest to discredit Jesus?

I pray you find what you need. God be with you.

Thank you, I believe G-d hears the prayers of all of us, Christians, Jews, or other Holy people.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not liking the tone of this post.

The first believers were Jews. Acts tells us that many thousands became believers and that many priests were obedient to the faith.

Paul says the Jews are beloved for the sake of the fathers, that their gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Forgive me ... if you meant by "tone" the way certain words came across, I agree. I did not realize until I reread it. My apologies, much going on and I am pretty exhausdted for several days now. I edited it, then saw your post here.

The first believers were indeed Jewish, and the Church was based on the Jewish faith. We are greatly indebted to them, and Judaism was established by God Himself.

However, certain sects of Judaism absolutely hated and rejected Christ and later Christians, and there were tensions. It is well-documented in Scripture.

I meant no prejudice though, if that's what you mean. I apologize for how I came across. If the edited post still seems objectionable to you, please feel free to let me know here or privately, and if I can properly amend I will.

Thank you for pointing out your concerns.

 

[tampasteve]

Israel is no longer a theocracy. The law of Moses can no longer be obeyed. Particularly the ceremonial laws and the administrative laws of Moses.

Really, the Bible/Torah is pretty clear that the Law and the covenant were forever. Of course the temple rituals cannot be continued until the third temple is built:

You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you take away from it, so that you may keep the commands of the LORD your God which I command you. - Deuteronomy 4:2

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. - Psalms 19:7

And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, you shall be careful to do forever. And you shall not fear other gods. And the covenant that I have made with you, you shall not forget, and you shall not fear other gods. - II Kings 17:37,38

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our sons forever, so that we may do all the words of this law. - Deuteronomy 29:29

"For you shall listen to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. For this commandment which I command you today is not hidden from you, neither is it far off. It is not in Heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to Heaven, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us to the region beyond the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and do it? But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it." - Deuteronomy 30:10-14

Only be strong and very courageous so that you may be careful to do according to all the law which My servant Moses commanded you. Do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may act wisely wherever you go. This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it by day and by night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall act wisely. - Joshua 1:7,8

and more......

Christ made certain truth claims. HE can't just be a prophet.
Jesus is the spiritual temple the physical temple has been destroyed

Which is a problem I struggle with...either he is a Prophet and his words and teachings were tampered with, he was G-d incarnate, or he was neither....and why did it take another 30 or so years for the temple to be destroyed after Jesus was crucified?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Is it though? That would imply some sort of multi-millennial conspiracy. To believe that means one must believe that the Jewish people actually do believe that Jesus was some sort of divine person or even the Messiah, but continue to reject him for an unknown reason. Rather, it seems they mostly just point out why he was not the Messiah and move on from thinking about him. It seems that there is just a lot of evidence against Jesus being the Messiah, which is what the Jewish people reject about Jesus and is the foundation of Christianity as is typically practiced. The Jewish people at the time and now really do not pursue conversion, so why is it in their interest to discredit Jesus?


Thank you, I believe G-d hears the prayers of all of us, Christians, Jews, or other Holy people.

I think a lot of this rejection has to do with the polemical war with Christian dogma over the last 1800 years.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Is it though? That would imply some sort of multi-millennial conspiracy. To believe that means one must believe that the Jewish people actually do believe that Jesus was some sort of divine person or even the Messiah, but continue to reject him for an unknown reason. Rather, it seems they mostly just point out why he was not the Messiah and move on from thinking about him. It seems that there is just a lot of evidence against Jesus being the Messiah, which is what the Jewish people reject about Jesus and is the foundation of Christianity as is typically practiced. The Jewish people at the time and now really do not pursue conversion, so why is it in their interest to discredit Jesus?


Thank you, I believe G-d hears the prayers of all of us, Christians, Jews, or other Holy people.

Im not sure why it implies a conspiracy to you? I would never have thought of it that way. If someone believes in God, how and why should they ever set themselves against Him? There may indeed be isolated cases of those who recognized Christ as Messiah and chose to reject Him, but I can't even imagine a motive for doing so. Rather, I think they were protecting what they saw as their own (true) faith. Nearly everyone always sees their own faith as true (otherwise they wouldn't hold it) and so anything else they oppose, they do in the name of truth.

But Christ very obviously posed a threat to the status quo, and was opposed by the religious leaders of the day. Even historic sources outside of Scripture attest to this. Their reaction is understandable, even without a conspiracy theory, don't you think?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Forgive me ... if you meant by "tone" the way certain words came across, I agree. I did not realize until I reread it. My apologies, much going on and I am pretty exhausdted for several days now. I edited it, then saw your post here.

The first believers were indeed Jewish, and the Church was based on the Jewish faith. We are greatly indebted to them, and Judaism was established by God Himself.

However, certain sects of Judaism absolutely hated and rejected Christ and later Christians, and there were tensions. It is well-documented in Scripture.

I meant no prejudice though, if that's what you mean. I apologize for how I came across. If the edited post still seems objectionable to you, please feel free to let me know here or privately, and if I can properly amend I will.

Thank you for pointing out your concerns.

Thanks for this.

I think we need to read the NT in light of the polemic that developed later between the emerging Jewish believers and SOME religious leaders of the day. The Sadducees had the most to lose by the preaching of a resurrected Jesus because they did not believe in the resurrection. Surely, if it caught on, their influence over the people was in jeopardy.

Some Pharisees (possibly the more strict school of Shammai) may also have had an ax to grind. But all in all, Jesus had more in common with the Pharisees in terms of praxis and belief than with the Sadducees.

 

[tampasteve]

Im not sure why it implies a conspiracy to you? I would never have thought of it that way. If someone believes in God, how and why should they ever set themselves against Him? There may indeed be isolated cases of those who recognized Christ as Messiah and chose to reject Him, but I can't even imagine a motive for doing so. Rather, I think they were protecting what they saw as their own (true) faith. Nearly everyone always sees their own faith as true (otherwise they wouldn't hold it) and so anything else they oppose, they do in the name of truth.

But Christ very obviously posed a threat to the status quo, and was opposed by the religious leaders of the day. Even historic sources outside of Scripture attest to this. Their reaction is understandable, even without a conspiracy theory, don't you think?

Thank you for the clarification, what you have written makes sense and I really do appreciate it. My only contention would be that the religious leaders at the time, and since, had issue with Jesus as the Messiah because he did not fulfill much of the prophesy. So they are threatened by Jesus because they take it as a change to the religion, and it was....I know that Christians say that the rest will be fulfilled when Christ returns, but that is just the problem, I find the scriptural evidence of a two-time Messiah in the Jewish scriptures to be lacking....

 

[~Anastasia~]

Glad it made more sense to you both. I'm sorry for posting when I am so tired. Honestly, I miss participating in CF over the last few days is the only reason I'm on here. I should really take a nap instead, until I get caught up a bit. I'm not good at sleeping in the daytime though.

Again, apologies, and thank you for your patience and understanding.

 

[Serving Zion]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish people as a counter missionary. The obvious implications for someone that is not Jewish, as I am not, is that the lecture series makes one question one's belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For various reasons I stopped pursuing the track at the time, but recently started again. At this point my faith in Christ is seriously lacking, almost to apostasy. Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Has anyone listened to these lectures or read similar information? There is a lot to write about, but essentially it boils down to:
1. Jesus could not be the Messiah (and many reasons are given)
2. It is possible that the OT is true while the NT is not - and many flaws of the NT are pointed out.
3. If Judaism was the true religion up until the crucifixion and resurrection, then it stands to reason that Judaism would be the "true" religion still if Jesus was not the Messiah and Christianity is not true.
4. There are many scriptures that point to the Law of Moses not ever changing, which is opposed to Paul's teachings. However, this could still work on a MJ level.
5. Many of the "messianic" verses pointing to Jesus as the Messiah are misinterpreted on purpose or on accident by Christians in the OT.

I can link to some of the audio or video if you like, but each lecture is long - around 75 minutes.

Jesus is the firstfruits (Zechariah 12:10), and we who are baptised into Him are individual members of The Body of Christ, growing until we become the full stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13). So while Jesus did come as Messiah 2,000 years ago, it became apparent in His time that the world could not receive a full and everlasting victory over sin by simply yielding to Him. This is evidenced by the fact that they mistook Him as a heretic.

So they cut His life short before He was able to fulfil all Messianic prophecies (Daniel 9:26). But! .. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8) .. because it was through no fault of His that they did this, and because He remained blameless to the last breath, He was raised to honour at God's right hand while His enemies are made a footstool for Him.

Jesus reigns from earth, and we represent Him to earth, for the benefit to those who are unable to perceive heavenly things (Romans 10:14, Isaiah 59:21, Hebrews 12:14).

Thus, Messiah's work continues to be carried out through His faithful brethren, and that will never end (Daniel 2:44).

Where this applies to you as a non-Jewish person, is that the Kingdom of God belongs to whomever God confers it (Daniel 4:25, Jeremiah 18:7-10, John 4:23, Mark 3:27, Matthew 8:10-12). Notice John 4:23 does not exclude the Jewish people forever, but only for so long as the Gentiles possess more righteousness in God's sight (ie: as long as the Jews believe that it is right to shed innocent blood in God's name, they are less righteous than a Gentile who has laid down his life to continue His work - Romans 2:27, Numbers 35:33, Jeremiah 22:3-4).

In the end, when both Jew and Gentile come to worship The Risen Lord in spirit and truth (Luke 21:24), there will be no enmity between them because God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all the congregations of the saints (Ephesians 2:15, Romans 11:23, Galatians 3:26-28, Romans 2:28-29).

 

[tampasteve]

Jesus is the firstfruits (Zechariah 12:10), and we who are baptised into Him are individual members of The Body of Christ, growing until we become the full stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13). So while Jesus did come as Messiah 2,000 years ago, it became apparent in His time that the world could not receive a full and everlasting victory over sin by simply yielding to Him. This is evidenced by the fact that they mistook Him as a heretic.

So they cut His life short before He was able to fulfil all Messianic prophecies (Daniel 9:26). But! .. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8) .. because it was through no fault of His that they did this, and because He remained blameless to the last breath, He was raised to honour at God's right hand while His enemies are made a footstool for Him.

Jesus reigns from earth, and we represent Him to earth, for the benefit to those who are unable to perceive heavenly things (Romans 10:14, Isaiah 59:21, Hebrews 12:14).

Thus, Messiah's work continues to be carried out through His faithful brethren, and that will never end (Daniel 2:44).

Where this applies to you as a non-Jewish person, is that the Kingdom of God belongs to whomever God confers it (Daniel 4:22, Jeremiah 18:7-10, John 4:23, Mark 3:27, Matthew 8:10-12). Notice John 4:23 does not exclude the Jewish people forever, but only for so long as the Gentiles possess more righteousness in God's sight (ie: as long as the Jews believe that it is right to shed innocent blood in God's name, they are less righteous than a Gentile who has laid down his life to continue His work - Romans 2:27, Numbers 35:33, Jeremiah 22:3-4).

In the end, when both Jew and Gentile come to worship The Risen Lord in spirit and truth (Luke 21:24), there will be no enmity between them because God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all the congregations of the saints (Ephesians 2:15, Romans 11:23, Galatians 3:26-28, Romans 2:28-29).

Thank you for taking the time to write this, it is immensely helpful. So, in your estimation, according to scripture, was Jesus a man, prophet, the Messiah and G-d in flesh? This is a particular stumbling block for me as well as I find it difficult to see in scripture where the Messiah had to be completely blameless and a god-man, that seems more of a pagan add on as that type or idea was very common in pagan religions.

 

[Serving Zion]

Thank you for taking the time to write this, it is immensely helpful. So, in your estimation, according to scripture, was Jesus a man, prophet, the Messiah and G-d in flesh? This is a particular stumbling block for me as well as I find it difficult to see in scripture where the Messiah had to be completely blameless and a god-man, that seems more of a pagan add on as that type or idea was very common in pagan religions.

Jesus had no earthly father, He came to know Yahweh as His legitimate heavenly father. This gave Him a unique faith that no other person has ever had, and a unique role in creation that no other person ever can have. Upon His baptism, The Holy Spirit settled upon Him. It is fair to view this as the beginning of His covenant whereby He laid down His life (formerly a carpenter) and took upon Himself to perform Messianic duty. Jesus says similarly to us "whoever wants to be my disciple must lay down his life, take up his cross and come after me".

I sense that you might have been somewhat impacted by a misleading doctrine that has come to misrepresent the mechanism of atonement (namely "Penalty Substitution"). This has become a widespread doctrine of the apostates, and it inherently mischaracterises God as a person that is unable to forgive unless blood is shed.

It is a common cause of 'faith derailment', and I have written good material about this here before, hold that thought while I find some links to those writings.

 

[CherubRam]

Several years ago I started listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer and his defense of Judaism for Jewish people as a counter missionary. The obvious implications for someone that is not Jewish, as I am not, is that the lecture series makes one question one's belief in Jesus as the Messiah. For various reasons I stopped pursuing the track at the time, but recently started again. At this point my faith in Christ is seriously lacking, almost to apostasy. Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Has anyone listened to these lectures or read similar information? There is a lot to write about, but essentially it boils down to:
1. Jesus could not be the Messiah (and many reasons are given)
2. It is possible that the OT is true while the NT is not - and many flaws of the NT are pointed out.
3. If Judaism was the true religion up until the crucifixion and resurrection, then it stands to reason that Judaism would be the "true" religion still if Jesus was not the Messiah and Christianity is not true.
4. There are many scriptures that point to the Law of Moses not ever changing, which is opposed to Paul's teachings. However, this could still work on a MJ level.
5. Many of the "messianic" verses pointing to Jesus as the Messiah are misinterpreted on purpose or on accident by Christians in the OT.

I can link to some of the audio or video if you like, but each lecture is long - around 75 minutes.

Yes the faith was hijacked by the Pagan Romans, but this also was the fulfilment of prophecy. Christ first comes as the suffering Messiah, and then upon his second coming, he comes as a victor with great power.