Need advise

[Menageriemama]

I apologize if this is long but I want to accurately (as much as any one side in a marriage can!) describe my situation.

My husband and I have been married 7 years and have 2 kids together. I have 2 children from a previous marriage (my husband has pretty much raised them as my older children's dad left us when my son was 8 months old- he had chronic adultery and inappropriate content issues).

My husband and I have a good life together. My husband is very successful in business ( I admire his tenacity to get what he wants and steadfastness). He is a good provider. He is a good father. We have 4 kids total so life is hectic but enjoyable. However, he is not interested in being a better husband. He would rather get shot in the foot than go on a date night. I've weigh 110lbs, exercise regularly and keep up my appearance and try to look nice when he gets home. I get more compliments from other people than my own husband (no, I'm not looking for attention from the opposite sex-but I'm referring to compliments from my girlfriends).

We have been to couples counseling to address issues we have had- centered around his temper- not violent but abusive language (demeaning- hurtful). It comes down to him blaming it on third parties or anxiety. Whatever. I find him in complete control and he knows exactly what he's doing. I have issues with boundaries and enforcing them.

My issue is that I will do something- such as not having the preferred pants ready for work and he will go "off" on me- cursing- saying mean thing. I stay calm - I don't say mean things back etc. I write them down because later he says that wasn't how it happened etc.

Then 2 hours or whatever he will text me or act like nothing happened. Then his next move is to be extra nice and say he didn't mean to etc.

Then he wants to be close again (sexually, not actually spend time with me or do something I would enjoy). I'm sick of this cycle. I forgive and forget but this isn't working for me. He doesn't want to spend time with me, he just wants me to be domestic and offer sex). Thing is- I'm no longer attracted to him. At all.

Our marriage is completely transactional. If I decline sex (like the last Valentine's Day - where he didn't even bother to get me a card), he refuses to attend church with the family.

I want us to be a family (attend church, have a husband who wants a wife , be intimate (not referring to sex)). But I just feel used.

I've done everything I can to be more attractive thinking if I was just pretty enough, he would have an incentive to like me (want to date me). But I was wrong.

Any advice?

 

[live4Christ2016]

So you went to this couples counselling? How did that go? You don't go anymore? If not would you be willing to go by yourself to a counsellor?
He sounds emotionally and verbally abusive.
Is he a Christian? I ask because you stated he refuses to attend church with the family.
My husband wouldn't go to church with me and our son and I told him,"Fine. Stay home." Use that line the next time he does it because he does it to hurt you. In the end he's only hurting himself by doing this.
How was he when you were dating and in the newlywed stage? When did you start to see him change?

 

[live4Christ2016]

I meant to say he refused to go to church with the family as a way of getting back at you. He knows it is something you want for your family so he does it to hurt you. He's only hurting himself. Go to church without him when he does that.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Right off the bat it sounds like hes one of those type of guys that believes the wife just exists to wait on man and give him sex. I don't know him of course but sure sounds like his thinking. You don't have to answer but when you two do have sex is it all about him reaching his "peak" then hes done? Or does he make sure to focus on you during it too? Because if its the first part then he REALLY needs to talk to someone about marriage and sex. Women aren't like me are easy to get excited and can end it quick. I hear it endlessly from other people about their husbands don't understand sex when it comes to being a woman. Well and of course the whole issue of romance alludes to many men. Except for sometimes when they first start dating their later to be wife.

As for blaming things on anxiety, ok if that is the case then tell him to go get anxiety meds from a doctor. If he makes excuses to not do that then it proves its not his anxiety. I mean I have anxiety and I know I needed meds, after taking them I do much better now. As for blaming third parties, its how my mom is with her anger. "I wouldn't have gotten mad if that guy didn't cut me off in his car!". She fails to see someone can be bad to you, but YOU control the response. So if he gets angry, it comes from him, no one else. I mean I know you realize that of course.

I can also say I had bad anger issues because of my mom and one thing I did was AVOID church at all costs. Why? Because I knew if I went someone might say something to me and more importantly I knew I'd feel guilty from either the sermon, the music...etc. Being at church is a hard place to go to when your guilty of something. Not that it excuses it of course.

Now I wouldn't say this to him, but despite my moms anger issues, she did sometimes bring up some good points to my dad like "You should be thankful, if I wasn't here taking care of your house, your kids and your bills, you would be stuck! Maybe I'll just leave for a month so you can see how hard it is being a at home parent who takes care of everything!". Of course my mom never actually left. Actually not long ago they did research on the "value" of a at home spouse who takes care of everything. Gong by various things they calculated the person if they were to be paid by the spouse would be paid over 6 digits a year. Goes to show that just because one person "works" outside the home, it doesn't mean anything because the work at home is harder and your hours never stop. At least the person that works outside the home get to stop and come home and rest.

Your reaching near the end of a track. At the end one junction goes to recovery and a better marriage, the other goes off a cliff. He needs to realize the marriage isn't going to last much longer and its because hes not willing to work on it.

 

[Menageriemama]

So you went to this couples counselling? How did that go? You don't go anymore? If not would you be willing to go by yourself to a counsellor?
He sounds emotionally and verbally abusive.
Is he a Christian? I ask because you stated he refuses to attend church with the family.
My husband wouldn't go to church with me and our son and I told him,"Fine. Stay home." Use that line the next time he does it because he does it to hurt you. In the end he's only hurting himself by doing this.
How was he when you were dating and in the newlywed stage? When did you start to see him change?

Sorry my reply took so long. I wrote something then it disappeared . Couples counseling goes ok- when he actually goes to it. If a pattern of behavior is pointed out, he usually goes on the defensive and says "well I'm better than I used to be" or "well I guess I'm not as perfect as you". It's quit frustrating but I try to focus on me. I try intentionally to speak only MY feelings and how something makes me feel. Etc.

He was great while dating. Like he actually enjoyed going on dates etc. He also did not exhibit the anger issues he had after we married. He also was very amenable to attending church.

I plan on no longer pushing him on church attendance. I think you're right. If I show something means something to me, he uses it as a bargaining chip etc.

Yes, he is very masochistic in regard to how he approaches being a husband. And time after time it doesn't result favorably. I don't get it.

 

[Menageriemama]

Right off the bat it sounds like hes one of those type of guys that believes the wife just exists to wait on man and give him sex. I don't know him of course but sure sounds like his thinking. You don't have to answer but when you two do have sex is it all about him reaching his "peak" then hes done? Or does he make sure to focus on you during it too? Because if its the first part then he REALLY needs to talk to someone about marriage and sex. Women aren't like me are easy to get excited and can end it quick. I hear it endlessly from other people about their husbands don't understand sex when it comes to being a woman. Well and of course the whole issue of romance alludes to many men. Except for sometimes when they first start dating their later to be wife.

As for blaming things on anxiety, ok if that is the case then tell him to go get anxiety meds from a doctor. If he makes excuses to not do that then it proves its not his anxiety. I mean I have anxiety and I know I needed meds, after taking them I do much better now. As for blaming third parties, its how my mom is with her anger. "I wouldn't have gotten mad if that guy didn't cut me off in his car!". She fails to see someone can be bad to you, but YOU control the response. So if he gets angry, it comes from him, no one else. I mean I know you realize that of course.

I can also say I had bad anger issues because of my mom and one thing I did was AVOID church at all costs. Why? Because I knew if I went someone might say something to me and more importantly I knew I'd feel guilty from either the sermon, the music...etc. Being at church is a hard place to go to when your guilty of something. Not that it excuses it of course.

Now I wouldn't say this to him, but despite my moms anger issues, she did sometimes bring up some good points to my dad like "You should be thankful, if I wasn't here taking care of your house, your kids and your bills, you would be stuck! Maybe I'll just leave for a month so you can see how hard it is being a at home parent who takes care of everything!". Of course my mom never actually left. Actually not long ago they did research on the "value" of a at home spouse who takes care of everything. Gong by various things they calculated the person if they were to be paid by the spouse would be paid over 6 digits a year. Goes to show that just because one person "works" outside the home, it doesn't mean anything because the work at home is harder and your hours never stop. At least the person that works outside the home get to stop and come home and rest.

Your reaching near the end of a track. At the end one junction goes to recovery and a better marriage, the other goes off a cliff. He needs to realize the marriage isn't going to last much longer and its because hes not willing to work on it.

In fact, he's not usually selfish sexually. He seems willing to do anything I'd be ok with. It's almost as if he thinks that's all he's got to give. But that's not really what I'm after. My husband knows he's got a side of himself that's very hard to live with (I can only compare it to a compulsion- sort of like OCD)- but when he's not being manipulative and angry, I really like HIM (his personality). So I'd like to spend more time with HIM (not speaking of sex). It's like the concept is pure magic to him.

 

[akmom]

To be honest, it sounds like you are falling into a rut. What I mean is, you are fixating on a perceived desire and convincing yourself that you are unhappy because this desire is not being met. I grew up with a dedicated mother who spent 15 years in this same rut. She could have written your post word for word! Ultimately, she just needed some perspective.

First, it sounds like you chose a good spouse. As a single mom with two kids, I imagine you had a LOT of perspective when you chose your husband, and your post indicates he is holding up in many of the ways that matter. He is a provider, a dedicated father, and frankly your dynamic doesn't sound too out-of-line. It almost reads as if you have become complacent. Now I don't want to invalidate your struggles, as they are legitimate feelings, but I think your perception is becoming overblown. He is not terribly romantic, it seems. He is mildly temperamental (which is totally subjective, depending on your tolerance for temperament). No one is perfect, and honestly he seems to fall into this category. He doesn't sweep you off your feet, but he is a generally good husband and receptive to improving. The fact that you are "completely unattracted to him" as a result, in my humble opinion, speaks more about you than his shortcomings.

I say this in love, and I hope with compassion, because I am not trying to be critical of you. I want you to be happy, and your post just has so much familiarity to me based on my parents' dynamic, that I feel it is worth offering my perspective. I think you are lucky to have him, and I think he is lucky to have you, and I think the children are immensely lucky to have this thriving, dedicated family where their parents take care of each other and love them. I also know, as a mother myself and a daughter who watched my own SAHM, that this stage of life can be very unfulfilling. And sometimes you don't even know what it is that you need, but it might occur to you that quality time with your spouse would certainly help. It might. It also might not. I mean, when your happiness depends heavily on the way you are treated by one person, and your emotional needs are very specific, then the chances of that person getting it right - even with genuine effort - are unfortunately rather small. That is kind of the risk we run when we depend on another person for our happiness and fulfillment. And it's a dangerous precedent. It may seem like a small request, but it's actually quite a big one. My dad tried for years to please my mom, but he didn't "get" her, and eventually their inability to understand each other's needs and efforts led to resentment and giving up. It's a vicious cycle.

Part of the "giving up" on marriage was my mother's decision to take a job. This was because her kids were finally old enough to allow this, and also she wanted to start the process of independence. What happened was that both my parents would come home exhausted, and just "chill." No expectations at all. Ironically, this was when *they* started to click. They understood each other. My dad did housework for the first time in his life, unprompted. I am in no way suggesting that having a job will solve your marriage problems. It's just an example, because it's what started the process of emotional connection for my own parents. It didn't start with date nights, and it didn't even end with date nights. I feel like true bonding happens over shared struggles and working together, rather than shared leisure. And also that dissatisfaction with marriage is sometimes just dissatisfaction with one's self, that they can't quite pinpoint. I believe that if you focus on meeting your own needs, that you will no longer feel like your marriage is lacking anything, or that your husband is less than what you need.

 

[akmom]

Second, you are making some assumptions about what your husband wants from you. Maintaining your appearance might *seem* like the way to win your husband's affections. But it might not be. He might not even notice, or give any thought to the effort and motives behind your stunning appearance. He might not be able to pinpoint what exactly would draw him to you either, and as a man, he might not even have given it much thought. For my dad, it was when my mom validated him that made him happy. He barely noticed her appearance. But he needed to be told he was hard working and smart. Might sound silly, but it was true. See if you can figure out what your husband's positive triggers are. If you aren't getting compliments on appearance, it's very possible that's just not a priority to him.

 

[*LILAC]

Second, you are making some assumptions about what your husband wants from you. Maintaining your appearance might *seem* like the way to win your husband's affections. But it might not be. He might not even notice, or give any thought to the effort and motives behind your stunning appearance. He might not be able to pinpoint what exactly would draw him to you either, and as a man, he might not even have given it much thought. For my dad, it was when my mom validated him that made him happy. He barely noticed her appearance. But he needed to be told he was hard working and smart. Might sound silly, but it was true. See if you can figure out what your husband's positive triggers are. If you aren't getting compliments on appearance, it's very possible that's just not a priority to him.

You just described my husband right to a T. No joke! He's not big on compliments and sometimes, as a woman, being complimented can be so nice, especially if we've made the effort to look nice. Even if I do ask how I look, it's usually with a half-hearted 'you look good'. BUT, if I were to get the house spic an' span and bake all kinds of goodies for him, he's like a kid at Christmas time! We obviously speak different "love languages"...

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry my reply took so long. I wrote something then it disappeared . Couples counseling goes ok- when he actually goes to it. If a pattern of behavior is pointed out, he usually goes on the defensive and says "well I'm better than I used to be" or "well I guess I'm not as perfect as you". It's quit frustrating but I try to focus on me. I try intentionally to speak only MY feelings and how something makes me feel. Etc.

He was great while dating. Like he actually enjoyed going on dates etc. He also did not exhibit the anger issues he had after we married. He also was very amenable to attending church.

I plan on no longer pushing him on church attendance. I think you're right. If I show something means something to me, he uses it as a bargaining chip etc.

Yes, he is very masochistic in regard to how he approaches being a husband. And time after time it doesn't result favorably. I don't get it.

If he was so different prior to marriage, that raises a red flag to me. If someone adapts their behavior in order to conceal certain aspects--then they know it's not acceptable behavior (and they have self-control over it).

You may want to spend some time reading Lundy Bancroft's blog (or books....if you wish to spend more time)...and articles by Jeff Crippen , Leslie Vernick, and a Cry for Justice site. Unfortunately, your husband fits the profile of an abuser (but with some amount of humility and willingness, he CAN change if he wishes).

 

[mkgal1]

I plan on no longer pushing him on church attendance. I think you're right. If I show something means something to me, he uses it as a bargaining chip etc.

Take a peek at the reviews of this book---I'm thinking they will resonate with you:
Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man: Coping with Hidden Aggression - From the Bedroom to the Boardroom: Scott Wetzler: 8601404704918: Amazon.com: Books

This is one to especially consider:

Beware of going into counseling with a PA partner as a couple. He will lie, say half-truths ect in the room, YOU will be the one getting upset (read downright disgusted and mad) and then he will turn around and blame YOU and say, 'see I told you she is emotional and angry all the time'! All the while he will maintain perfect composure and seem so sweet and caring, saying 'we're only here to help you sweetheart!'. That is what a PA does! The book does go into some detail on handling the PA relationship and how your own actions (read- RE-actions) may be helping to enable him in the behavior.

 

[Menageriemama]

Take a peek at the reviews of this book---I'm thinking they will resonate with you:
Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man: Coping with Hidden Aggression - From the Bedroom to the Boardroom: Scott Wetzler: 8601404704918: Amazon.com: Books

This is one to especially consider:

Oh yes, I have had this EXACT thing happen in several counseling sessions! I didn't know this book existed. Thank you!

 

[mkgal1]

Oh yes, I have had this EXACT thing happen in several counseling sessions! I didn't know this book existed. Thank you!

I'm guessing you're going to recognize a LOT of scenarios that are written about.

 

[akmom]

If he was so different prior to marriage, that raises a red flag to me. If someone adapts their behavior in order to conceal certain aspects--then they know it's not acceptable behavior (and they have self-control over it).

You may want to spend some time reading Lundy Bancroft's blog (or books....if you wish to spend more time)...and articles by Jeff Crippen , Leslie Vernick, and a Cry for Justice site. Unfortunately, your husband fits the profile of an abuser (but with some amount of humility and willingness, he CAN change if he wishes).

Come on, mkgal! How can you characterize anything in her post as abuse? Almost all interactions are "dates" when you start a relationship. In marriage, there is a household to manage, children to raise, and shared responsibilities. There is often less time for date nights. Living with a person is going to increase the opportunities for conflict, so there is going to be more arguments and criticisms. The stakes are higher, and so is the reaction. It's not simply a matter of self-control. What triggers an outburst is often not present in the dating scenario. I very much doubt that being pleasant and initiating dates is a behavior deliberately intended to "conceal" a person's potential to get upset and/or fail to be romantic.

I don't think it's helpful to tell a person that feeling disappointed or hurt is a legitimate reason to label their spouse an abuser. Sometimes it seems that when posters can relate to each other, they not only validate each other, but feed off each other's opinions and actually convince each other that things are worse than they are. They get a sense of emotional entitlement that is very unrealistic, and the result is increasing blame on the other party, rather than seeing the whole picture in context. The message becomes to make demands of the spouse and leave if they aren't met, rather than work on their own side of the problem. I suspect some men would be baffled by how quickly their wife's sentiments escalate after seeking support in a forum like this. I'm astounded at how over-the-top some of the responses become.

 

[mkgal1]

Come on, mkgal! How can you characterize anything in her post as abuse?

Because abuse is much more than overt abuse. The "nice guy" insidious abuse may actually be worse, because everyone around couples like that won't believe the one being abused (sort of like your response).

 

[mkgal1]

This is what specifically raised my alarms, AKMom:

We have been to couples counseling to address issues we have had- centered around his temper- not violent but abusive language (demeaning- hurtful). It comes down to him blaming it on third parties or anxiety. Whatever. I find him in complete control and he knows exactly what he's doing.

He was great while dating. Like he actually enjoyed going on dates etc. He also did not exhibit the anger issues he had after we married. He also was very amenable to attending church.

I plan on no longer pushing him on church attendance. I think you're right. If I show something means something to me, he uses it as a bargaining chip etc.

Yes, he is very masochistic in regard to how he approaches being a husband. And time after time it doesn't result favorably. I don't get it.

 

[mkgal1]

BTW....I think the title of that book (Living with the Passive Aggressive Man) may be mis-titled (as per this article):

"Most of the time I hear people use the term “passive-aggressive” or “passive aggression” what they really mean is “covert aggression.” The term “passive-aggressive” is used incorrectly to describe the subtle, hard to detect, but yet deliberate, calculating and underhanded tactics that manipulators and other disturbed characters use to intimidate, control, deceive and abuse others. That’s what covert aggression is all about. Although this kind of aggression is often subtle or concealed, there’s absolutely nothing “passive” about it. It’s very active, albeit veiled aggression."

As Simon says, laypeople and professionals have been muddled on this terminology for a long time. Here at this blog we are immensely grateful to those like George Simon Jnr who are clarifying things for us all.

When we talk to friends, family and bystanders about what abusers are like, they often don’t get it. They disbelieve the victims’ reports, they discount people like myself and Jeff Crippen who proclaim repeatedly about the mentality and tactics of abusers. They see us as extremist, one-eyed, horribly biased and therefore not worth listening to. But when victims (and the few blessed bystanders who truly care for victims) discover George Simon Jnr’s work, or Lundy Bancroft’s work, or this blog, they find the veils lifting. Lifting for the first time after who knows how many years of confusion and stumbling in not merely circles but descending spirals that go to black holes of despair and nothingness. Integrity destroying black holes. Personality shattering black holes. Guilt and shame black holes. Depressive and suicidal black holes. Paralyzing black holes. (nuff of that, I’m depressing myself just trying to find words for it all!) My point is: the abuser is master at covert aggression.

And most people don’t like to see that — it hurts their worldview too much. It destablizes their optimism about life and the basic decency of human nature.~Covert aggression is not the same as passive aggression

 

[mkgal1]

An example of covert aggression:

Let's say husband wishes to go to lunch with his brother (whom he hardly ever gets the opportunity to see). His wife knows about his plans---hasn't really said much about it...but is fully aware. He goes out to garage to get in his car to leave and finds his wife's car blocking his car. His wife has left with her friend to also go to lunch. Then husband goes to get the extra key to move her car and he notices that is gone. He calls his wife, but she doesn't answer his call. Husband had to call brother to come and pick him up. When husband later asks about the car blocking his car in the garage, his wife just acts as if it all was an innocent accident.

One event like that doesn't make one an abuser--but if this is a pattern---that can typically be considered abuse.

 

[mkgal1]

I don't think it's helpful to tell a person that feeling disappointed or hurt is a legitimate reason to label their spouse an abuser.

Neither is it helpful to respond to this as if it's "just life" or what most marriages go through.

What's the resistance to calling abusive behavior "abuse"?

 

[Menageriemama]

First off, I just want to Thank each one of y'all for your responses. I really appreciate each one of them! I think getting opinions from multiple sources really helps me to improve ME, which is all I can do.

I think "abuse" is a word that scares people all too often. It really boils down to a misuse of power. My husband knows my vulnerabilities (things that matter to me: church, activities, people, one on one time) and all too often uses them against me. Now generally I would say this could be due to a busy household and career (getting side tracked etc) except that I've seen him drop everything for a hunting or fishing trip or to hang out with people he wants to hang out with.

I think there's a lot of value in looking at how I respond to him and dealing with it accordingly.

I've asked him to read books with me (like Love and Respect) and the Love languages. I went ahead and read mine but his collects dust. Meanwhile, he will read books for work and the Wall Street Journal daily. What's so puzzling is how openly (vs passively) aggressive he is with work.

Again, he has complete control. He has more self control (when he wants to) than I do! I've seen him have some of the most composure and calm in VERY stressful business negotiations and litigation- meanwhile that stuff drives me nutty.

I think with me he just gets lazy in how we interact and figures I'll get over it etc.