Need Advice

[TKA_TN]

I’d like advice from LCMS Lutherans on this, please.

My wife and I joined a LCMS church in our town a few years ago. I was just taken aback with Confessional Lutheranism and knew it was where I belonged. I grew up, and met my wife in an EPC Presbyterian church. My wife agreed to join when I felt that’s where we were meant to be.

Fast forward a few years. We now have 2 children and my wife wants to go back to the Presbyterian church where we met. It’s a fine church, preaches the Word, does a lot of stuff in the community and globally. It’s a large church, has activities for children where our lcms church is lacking somewhat in that area. My wife thinks some doctrinal points (mainly Bapstism, Holy Communion) aren’t as important as just having faith. I’m on the other end of that spectrum.

I LOVE being Lutheran and I’ve been attending the Presbyterian church of late due to stricter COVID safety measures, but it just feels lacking.

Ive explained the sacraments and everything else to my wife and she just won’t budge on it. Anyone have any advice on how to handle this situation? I don’t want to be a 2-church family because that sends the wrong message to our kids, but there are certain points of doctrine that are just too important. I’m trying to work through this with my wife and don’t want to be a selfish, self-centered person. Thank you in advance for any advice/guidance.

 

[Tigger45]

Is there a LCMS congregation in your area that has more activities for children that might be a good compromise for you and your wife?

 

[TKA_TN]

Unfortunately we re in the largest one in our town.

 

[Tolworth John]

My wife thinks some doctrinal points (mainly Bapstism, Holy Communion) aren’t as important as just having faith. I’m on the other end of that spectrum

Have you talked to the minister of this Presbyterian church and discussed baptism and communion with him.

Also talk about how and what they are teaching the youth in both churches.

Have you also got the reason why your wife wants to return to this other church?

 

[TKA_TN]

Have you talked to the minister of this Presbyterian church and discussed baptism and communion with him.

Also talk about how and what they are teaching the youth in both churches.

Have you also got the reason why your wife wants to return to this other church?

She thinks the preaching and music are better. And I’d agree. The Pastor is one of the best preachers I’ve heard, and the music is basically an orchestra every Sunday.

There’s something for youth every night at the Presbyterian church with a lot more kids, and it’s only 1 night at the Lutheran church. And much fewer kids.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Sorry to hear about this.

I'm sure you've already tried this, but maybe it's worth outlining the differences between the two theological systems, and make a case for that even though the Lutheran Church may not be as grand as the Presbyterian, there are some important doctrinal differences that are worth being conscious of when making a decision like this. We don't want to let mere external things drive us. That is, assuming the LCMS church you attend is faithful to our confessions and practices, they teach with the proper distinctions between Law and Gospel, Justification and Sanctification, and Coram Mundo and Coram Deo. All other church bodies, to varying degrees, confuse these, and so reduce the Gospel.

You mentioned the Sacraments, and perhaps one way to help explain the difference is that, in the Lutheran system, the Sacraments are gifts. In other systems, they are more like a rite we observe or at worst a kind of new law. In other words, in the Lutheran system, it's very clear that the Sacraments are something God does for us, but all other church bodies teach the inverse, that it's something we do for God or we do for ourselves. Now, there's a lot that can be said about the Sacraments, but I think if we at least understand them as unmerited and precious gifts, then perhaps we may become sympathetic to why they are so important in the Lutheran system, and rightly so.

I don't know how close you are with the Lutheran Pastor, and it may not be a good idea to gang up on your wife, but he may be able to offer good counsel.

If circumstances prevent you from attending a Confessional Lutheran Church, then it's fine to go to a heterodox church and supplement it with sound catechesis at home. It's really not ideal and it can create confusion, but I think if you're transparent about it with your kids, hopefully, they'll grow up firm in the faith, knowing the riches of God's Word and Sacraments.

 

[Tolworth John]

She thinks the preaching and music are better. And I’d agree. The Pastor is one of the best preachers I’ve heard, and the music is basically an orchestra every Sunday.

There’s something for youth every night at the Presbyterian church with a lot more kids, and it’s only 1 night at the Lutheran church. And much fewer kids.

Then what is stopping you from rejoining.
If attending a particular rite is so important couldn't you attend the Lutheran church once a month to join that rite?

At the end of the day it is not what church or what ceremonies we performed but our faith in Jesus that saves.
Your priority is to see your children learn about Christianity and not be put off by things they find borring.

 

[TKA_TN]

Sorry to hear about this.

I'm sure you've already tried this, but maybe it's worth outlining the differences between the two theological systems, and make a case for that even though the Lutheran Church may not be as grand as the Presbyterian, there are some important doctrinal differences that are worth being conscious of when making a decision like this. We don't want to let mere external things drive us. That is, assuming the LCMS church you attend is faithful to our confessions and practices, they teach with the proper distinctions between Law and Gospel, Justification and Sanctification, and Coram Mundo and Coram Deo. All other church bodies, to varying degrees, confuse these, and so reduce the Gospel.

You mentioned the Sacraments, and perhaps one way to help explain the difference is that, in the Lutheran system, the Sacraments are gifts. In other systems, they are more like a rite we observe or at worst a kind of new law. In other words, in the Lutheran system, it's very clear that the Sacraments are something God does for us, but all other church bodies teach the inverse, that it's something we do for God or we do for ourselves. Now, there's a lot that can be said about the Sacraments, but I think if we at least understand them as unmerited and precious gifts, then perhaps we may become sympathetic to why they are so important in the Lutheran system, and rightly so.

I don't know how close you are with the Lutheran Pastor, and it may not be a good idea to gang up on your wife, but he may be able to offer good counsel.

If circumstances prevent you from attending a Confessional Lutheran Church, then it's fine to go to a heterodox church and supplement it with sound catechesis at home. It's really not ideal and it can create confusion, but I think if you're transparent about it with your kids, hopefully, they'll grow up firm in the faith, knowing the riches of God's Word and Sacraments.

I was hoping you’d respond, and your insights are always very good. Thank you. I’ve thought about going to my pastor to discuss this with him, but don’t want to feel like I’m going behind my wife’s back but I think I’m at that point.

She and I discussed things tonight. She basically left it at “I don’t really get fed at our church, but I do at the other.” She said she wants our kids to get the same thing and doesn’t feel like they’ll get that since the preaching isn’t always great (our pastors do always do a wonderful job of law and Gospel, which I love).

I think the kids would have a better catechesis at our church because it’s something the Lutheran Church does so well, as a whole. I actually grew up at the Presbyterian church we’ve been attending and never got what I’ve gotten in the last 3 years.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I was hoping you’d respond, and your insights are always very good. Thank you. I’ve thought about going to my pastor to discuss this with him, but don’t want to feel like I’m going behind my wife’s back but I think I’m at that point.

She and I discussed things tonight. She basically left it at “I don’t really get fed at our church, but I do at the other.” She said she wants our kids to get the same thing and doesn’t feel like they’ll get that since the preaching isn’t always great (our pastors do always do a wonderful job of law and Gospel, which I love).

I think the kids would have a better catechesis at our church because it’s something the Lutheran Church does so well, as a whole. I actually grew up at the Presbyterian church we’ve been attending and never got what I’ve gotten in the last 3 years.

Well, first of all, thank you - that's very kind!

Perhaps it could be a good idea to ask your wife to compromise, and the two of you go and talk to the Pastor and be transparent about things. This could be better than going to the Pastor before telling your wife. Diplomacy and truth go a long way. He is your servant in Christ and I'm confident he would love to listen and help where he can.

Then if possible, if the Pastor and your wife concede, your kids could be catechised in the LCMS church, but you as a family could go to the Presbyterian Church, with perhaps the occasional visit to LCMS - or better yet, maybe one Sunday a month. As you mentioned earlier, it's not ideal to be going to two different churches (for several reasons), but I think if we weigh things up, sound doctrine and Sacraments at least occasionally is better than permanent sound-ish doctrine (I'm presuming) and questionable Sacramentology.

I should add to this that there could be a complication, in that if you do go to two churches, or only the Presbyterian church, strictly speaking, you would no longer be able to commune with LCMS, for they practice Closed Communion (which is both Biblical and historical, and the truly loving thing to do, contrary to what most of us in our day believe). However, I can't speak for the Pastor, but at least in my own Diocese and according to my own conscience as a Pastor, I would gladly invite you to the Eucharist, for I understand that this is a somewhat special circumstance in that you really do hold to the Lutheran doctrine but are having to be longsuffering. This is a big discussion in and of itself, but what I'm getting at is that God judges the heart, not our membership status.

Some practical advice:
It could be a good idea to reach out to your Pastor from time to time and try to form a relationship. Keep him in prayer and maybe invite him over sometime if he's not busy. It's good to keep the connection going.

If your kids can be catechised at LCMS, that's great! Even so, if you don't already have it, I'd recommend getting the Small Catechism with Explanation (Concordia Publishing House). It's very easy to read, and it does a great job of explaining the riches of God's Word.

If everything falls through and you're unable to go to LCMS, try and be kind and patient. If possible, encourage your family to check out some videos or podcasts by Pr. Bryan Wolfmueller, who is just a fantastic minister and teacher, or listen to the 15 min daily verse-by-verse Bible studies, The Word of the Lord Endures Forever, by Pr. Will Weedon, who is very insightful. Issues Etc also have some great contents and hosts, where both Bryan and Will feature from time to time.

I pray things will work out! The peace of Christ to you and your family +

 

[TKA_TN]

Well, first of all, thank you - that's very kind!

Perhaps it could be a good idea to ask your wife to compromise, and the two of you go and talk to the Pastor and be transparent about things. This could be better than going to the Pastor before telling your wife. Diplomacy and truth go a long way. He is your servant in Christ and I'm confident he would love to listen and help where he can.

Then if possible, if the Pastor and your wife concede, your kids could be catechised in the LCMS church, but you as a family could go to the Presbyterian Church, with perhaps the occasional visit to LCMS - or better yet, maybe one Sunday a month. As you mentioned earlier, it's not ideal to be going to two different churches (for several reasons), but I think if we weigh things up, sound doctrine and Sacraments at least occasionally is better than permanent sound-ish doctrine (I'm presuming) and questionable Sacramentology.

I should add to this that there could be a complication, in that if you do go to two churches, or only the Presbyterian church, strictly speaking, you would no longer be able to commune with LCMS, for they practice Closed Communion (which is both Biblical and historical, and the truly loving thing to do, contrary to what most of us in our day believe). However, I can't speak for the Pastor, but at least in my own Diocese and according to my own conscience as a Pastor, I would gladly invite you to the Eucharist, for I understand that this is a somewhat special circumstance in that you really do hold to the Lutheran doctrine but are having to be longsuffering. This is a big discussion in and of itself, but what I'm getting at is that God judges the heart, not our membership status.

Some practical advice:
It could be a good idea to reach out to your Pastor from time to time and try to form a relationship. Keep him in prayer and maybe invite him over sometime if he's not busy. It's good to keep the connection going.

If your kids can be catechised at LCMS, that's great! Even so, if you don't already have it, I'd recommend getting the Small Catechism with Explanation (Concordia Publishing House). It's very easy to read, and it does a great job of explaining the riches of God's Word.

If everything falls through and you're unable to go to LCMS, try and be kind and patient. If possible, encourage your family to check out some videos or podcasts by Pr. Bryan Wolfmueller, who is just a fantastic minister and teacher, or listen to the 15 min daily verse-by-verse Bible studies, The Word of the Lord Endures Forever, by Pr. Will Weedon, who is very insightful. Issues Etc also have some great contents and hosts, where both Bryan and Will feature from time to time.

I pray things will work out! The peace of Christ to you and your family +

Thank you again for the response. I’ll reach out to my Pastor. I don’t mind the idea of one Sunday a month. I know that my Pastor would allow me to commune under the circumstances.

I just finished Pr. Wolfmueller’s “Has American Christianity Failed?” and it was like the book was speaking to me about my upbringing. I’m trying to get my wife to read it and show why the Sacraments, liturgy, doctrine, etc. are so important (not ultimately necessary, or to the point of making an idol of them) and what they offer us.

I’ll see how things progress. Thank you again. God bless.

 

[Jim47]

May I suggest trying a WELS Lutheran church. You can ask the WELS Pastor about any questions or doubts you have and he will give you a reply straight out of the bible, and more then likely from more then one passage. Follow this link to a WELS church finder--
WELS Yearbook