Near Death Experiences

[selfinflikted]

I would like some Christians to chime in here (although of course, anyone is free to participate). I'm sure you've all heard of NDE's (Near Death Experiences). Many people claim that, when they are on the brink of death - such as from a heart attack, brain trauma, lack of oxygen, etc - that they experience a white light, a tunnel, or god, or heaven, and some even claim to experience hell. Many Christians I've heard talk about this phenomenon seem to believe this is supporting evidence of an afterlife. One of the problems I see with this, however, is that non-Christians have NDE's that mimic their versions of god, heaven, or afterlife. How do you explain this, if NDE's truly are a glimpse into what lies beyond death?

 

[Michael]

I would like some Christians to chime in here (although of course, anyone is free to participate). I'm sure you've all heard of NDE's (Near Death Experiences). Many people claim that, when they are on the brink of death - such as from a heart attack, brain trauma, lack of oxygen, etc - that they experience a white light, a tunnel, or god, or heaven, and some even claim to experience hell. Many Christians I've heard talk about this phenomenon seem to believe this is supporting evidence of an afterlife. One of the problems I see with this, however, is that non-Christians have NDE's that mimic their versions of god, heaven, or afterlife. How do you explain this, if NDE's truly are a glimpse into what lies beyond death?

Why would you expect all human NDE's to be exactly the same in the first place? How do you explain even self professed "atheists" having the same kind of experiences on a statistically equal percentage with theists?

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

 

[selfinflikted]

Why would you expect all human NDE's to be exactly the same in the first place? How do you explain even self professed "atheists" having the same kind of experiences on a statistically equal percentage with theists?

An Analysis of the Near-Death Experiences of Atheists

I have an idea, but I would expect them all to be the same if they are an indicator of an afterlife, which according to Christians, there are only two choices.

 

[Michael]

I have an idea, but I would expect them all to be the same if they are an indicator of an afterlife, which according to Christians, there are only two choices.

Humans are quite individualistic in their beliefs, even Christians. For instance, I love and honor Christ, but I personally "lack belief" in the concept of eternal torment for finite sin. In fact that whole concept doesn't even exist in Judaism, nor in the version of "Christianity' that Origen taught early Christians. It's actually a pagan concept that comes straight from the Greek concept of pagan 'hades' that was kludged into the Christian religion by Augustine, several centuries later.

 

[Michael]

I have an idea, but I would expect them all to be the same if they are an indicator of an afterlife, which according to Christians, there are only two choices.

Ian McCormack - an Atheist - Dead on Morgue Slab - Goes to Hell, then to Heaven and Back!! - YouTube

I should probably point out however, that my 'doubt' of the existence of a "hell" isn't necessarily confirmed by NDE's.

 

[selfinflikted]

I'll have to watch the vid later, youtube is blocked.

Do you agree then, that NDE's are not indicative of any afterlife?

 

[Michael]

I'll have to watch the vid later, youtube is blocked.

Do you agree then, that NDE's are not indicative of any afterlife?

It's hard to say IMO, particularly since I've never had one.

Carl Jung had such an experience, and he seemed to believe it was 'real'.

Carl Jung's Near-Death Experience

I gather it wasn't a particularly "Christian" experience, but I would assume that the experience (if it is real) is meant to calm the individual, not freak them out. I assume it would include a cultural and religious element that is tailored to the individual.

 

[essentialsaltes]

How do you explain even self professed "atheists" having the same kind of experiences on a statistically equal percentage with theists?

Because NDE's are the result of a physical process within the brain, not a divine process.

 

[Michael]

Because NDE's are the result of a physical process within the brain, not a divine process.

That doesn't really explain why the events seem to have such a profound impact on the individual, even long after the event. It also fails to explain any of the more unusual aspects of the events, like the out of body experiences described by Jung, or the guy that knew how to find his false teeth in the crash cart from the Lancet Study.

The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest

If it's just a random firing of neurons, why do they always follow the same themes (tunnels, out of body experiences, meeting God, etc)? Why not replay memories of the last great sex they had or something more random?

 

[essentialsaltes]

That doesn't really explain why the events seem to have such a profound impact on the individual, even long after the event.

Insults and injuries to the brain often have profound life-altering effects.

If it's just a random firing of neurons

It is not a random firing of neurons. Several aspects appear to be related to starving particular areas of the brain of oxygen.

tunnels

Visual center (see Blackmore)

out of body experiences

"Several kinds of research have converged to show that the OBE is caused by a breakdown of this normal process" (also Blackmore)

meeting God

"the sense of presence ... induced using transcranial magnetic stimulation" (same link - or check out the God Helmet)

As another analogy, I would also point out the feeling of euphoria that often accompanies pilots when they have emerged from a blackout (again, oxygen depletion in the brain). Note that tunnel vision also accompanies this - "During early stages of retinal depletion, the peripheral vision is lost and there may be an overall dimming of the visual image."

 

[Strathos]

Aren't there cases of OOB experiences where people see details they couldn't possibly have known, like the presence of a certain person in another room out of their line of sight?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Aren't there cases of OOB experiences where people see details they couldn't possibly have known, like the presence of a certain person in another room out of their line of sight?

AFAIK, there are some anecdotal reports of people seeing shoes on ledges and things like that, but they are not very convincing IMHO.

 

[Michael]

Insults and injuries to the brain often have profound life-altering effects.

I'm talking about the effects described in the Lancet article that related more to 'value system changes' that were directly related to what they *learned* in the experience.

It is not a random firing of neurons. Several aspects appear to be related to starving particular areas of the brain of oxygen.

That Lancet study actually ruled out oxygen deprivation as a possible cause by the way. Are there newer studies you're referring to?

Visual center (see Blackmore)

That's not exactly "peer reviewed' or published material, and frankly she's never impressed me much. Jung on the other hand impressed me.

"Several kinds of research have converged to show that the OBE is caused by a breakdown of this normal process" (also Blackmore)

Is her work on that topic published, or is that just her personal opinion?

"the sense of presence ... induced using transcranial magnetic stimulation" (same link - or check out the God Helmet)

IMO that "God helmet" experiment demonstrates a perfectly good working *physical method* whereby an electromagnetic universe might directly interact with humans. I fail to see how that particular work actually helps your case frankly.

As another analogy, I would also point out the feeling of euphoria that often accompanies pilots when they have emerged from a blackout (again, oxygen depletion in the brain). Note that tunnel vision also accompanies this - "During early stages of retinal depletion, the peripheral vision is lost and there may be an overall dimming of the visual image."

Blackouts don't seem to lead to life altering changes in personality however, whereas NDE's often do.

 

[juvenissun]

Ian McCormack - an Atheist - Dead on Morgue Slab - Goes to Hell, then to Heaven and Back!! - YouTube

I should probably point out however, that my 'doubt' of the existence of a "hell" isn't necessarily confirmed by NDE's.

Ian walked out of the hospital 24 hrs after his wakeup. This must be able to be verified. I believe it was true. Medically, is there a good explanation to that?

 

[jimbattle]

Some NDEs line up with scripture, but some do not. Some are satanic.

 

[ValleyGal]

We are all going to stand before God for our judgement. Imo, that would suggest that our experiences would all be somewhat similar (but I also say that in the context of our lives because perhaps our lives will impact what that journey to the throne will be like). Maybe for that reason, there will be some variance. I don't know. Just a thought.