Neanderthal Burials

[Freodin]

John, in the Apologetics thread "evidence for a 6000 year old earth", I alread told you the agriculture and domestication is, testable, older that 6000 years.

There were food producers before your assumed Adam and Eve. So your theory is wrong in this regard.

 

[Eddie]

Today at 03:40 PM lucaspa said this in Post #20

John, you are the one resorting to kindergarten tricks. And quoting a convicted child molester in the process!

 

To be accurate, Pee Wee was engaging in the sin of onanism in a gay movie house.  While it is not child molestation, it is something less than a sterling credential.  You may proceed with the bickering.



 

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 05:07 PM Eddie said this in Post #22 
Pee Wee was engaging in the sin of onanism in a gay movie house.  

I heard he got busted, but I did not hear anything about it being a "gay" movie theater. Do they even have places like that? Actually, never mind, I don't want to know.

Ephes. 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.





 

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:50 PM Freodin said this in Post #21

John, in the Apologetics thread "evidence for a 6000 year old earth", I alread told you the agriculture and domestication is, testable, older that 6000 years.

It is not as clear cut as you think it is. DNA in the Cattle business is BIG business. They leave nothing to chance. They are having trouble tracing the DNA back more than 6000 years. Their 10 little wooden indians do not like up quite as neat as evolutionary prophets would want them to.

There were food producers before your assumed Adam and Eve. So your theory is wrong in this regard. [/B]

Genesis 2:5  For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;

Before Adam, there was NO MAN to till the ground. Now where are the tools at that they used to till the ground before 6000 years ago? Do you have some photos you can show me and some evidence that those tools go back longer than 6000 years?

Maybe they threw some seeds in the ground here and there if they found a muddy patch or whatever. But they did not have a yoke of oxen and a plow. They did not till the land.

 





 

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:50 PM Freodin said this in Post #21 
I alread told you the agriculture and domestication is, testable, older that 6000 years.

Perhaps you may want to take a look at Dr. Gerald Schroeder


He has a theory that may interest you. He asks: "Is there the possibility that the human body developed over time, until it became a vessel capable of receiving and containing a neshama?"

Schroeder bases his theorys very heavy on Jewish Mysticism and the Kabalah. This is where the Big Bang theory came from is the Kabalah and Nachmanides work in the 1300's. So science was quick to pick that one up.

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Did_Adam_Have_Parents$.asp

 

 


 

 

[Freodin]

Today at 11:42 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=706369#post706369)



It is not as clear cut as you think it is. DNA in the Cattle business is BIG business. They leave nothing to chance. They are having trouble tracing the DNA back more than 6000 years. Their 10 little wooden indians do not like up quite as neat as evolutionary prophets would want them to.




Genesis 2:5  For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;

Before Adam, there was NO MAN to till the ground. Now where are the tools at that they used to till the ground before 6000 years ago? Do you have some photos you can show me and some evidence that those tools go back longer than 6000 years?

Maybe they threw some seeds in the ground here and there if they found a muddy patch or whatever. But they did not have a yoke of oxen and a plow. They did not till the land.

 





 

http://employees.csbsju.edu/ssaupe/biol106/origin_ag.htm

Sorry, no photos, but a good explanation.

BTW, by the same verse, do you think it did not rain before Adam?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 05:54 PM Freodin said this in Post #26

http://employees.csbsju.edu/ssaupe/biol106/origin_ag.htm 

Ok, here is a good example from the web page you provided:

"increased dietary diseases due to eating more calories, fat, and sodium, which in turn increases the incidence of "Western diseases" including coronary problems, diabetes and obesity."

We KNOW that it was though Adam that SIN entered the world, and it was though Adam that death though sin entered the world.

 The people who study the bones of early civilized man many talk about how there was a "increase" in disease. So, it is only natural they go looking for a reason why there is a "increase" in disease. They do not look into their Bible, they speculate and fail to explain why disease increased.

You can almost use the 6000 year mark as a time table when it comes to the bones they find. Because most of the bones they find more recent than 6000 years ago, have some sign of a bone disease in them.

As Job & David said:

Job 30:17 My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.

Psalm 6:2
    Have mercy upon me, O Lord; for I am weak: O Lord, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Psalm 31:10b my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed.

Proverbs 3:7-8
    Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. [8] It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

So, you see, the fear of God brings health to our bones.






 

 

[Freodin]

Today at 12:23 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #27 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=706435#post706435)



Ok, here is a good example from the web page you provided:

"increased dietary diseases due to eating more calories, fat, and sodium, which in turn increases the incidence of "Western diseases" including coronary problems, diabetes and obesity."

We KNOW that it was though Adam that SIN entered the world, and it was though Adam that death though sin entered the world.

 The people who study the bones of early civilized man many talk about how there was a "increase" in disease. So, it is only natural they go looking for a reason why there is a "increase" in disease. They do not look into their Bible, they speculate and fail to explain why disease increased.

You can almost use the 6000 year mark as a time table when it comes to the bones they find. Because most of the bones they find more recent than 6000 years ago, have some sign of a bone disease in them.



...

Again, not true, one various accounts.

First, there are very good explanations why diseases increased after the advent of agriculture. In fact, agriculture was a major factor in the increase of diseases, mainly in the fact that most of our human epidemic plagues are mutations of domestic animal plagues.

So, humans did not got measles because they sinned, but because they lived to close to cattle.

Second, the 6000 year limit for disease is not correct. There is evidence for the existence of disease before that time.

And thirdly, that there was an increase in health problems has nothing to do with the fact that this started BEFORE 4000 B.C.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:29 PM lucaspa said this in Post #19 

WHOA!  In another thread you are saying there was no death before Adam and Eve.  How do you account for the contradiction?

No, I never said that. You are mistaken. There was no death from sin. Still there was death. From what little research I have done, death often was a result of an accident, act of nature, or perhaps a act of violence. If you have evidence of bunches of people who died from a disease, then show me your evidence. 

I ran a search on the cause of death of prehistoric man, but did not really come up with all that much.

John, this is a subsistence society.  Those tools are needed by the group.  Putting them in the grave implies a belief in an afterlife where those things will be needed. And how about the food? Why bury good food with a dead person unless you thought they were going to need to eat in an afterlife?

Whatever, that is just an opinion.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 06:32 PM Freodin said this in Post #28
Second, the 6000 year limit for disease is not correct. There is evidence for the existence of disease before that time. 

Well, Paul tells us that sin and death through sin entered into the world though Adam. Science says there is a marked increase in bone disease around 6000 years ago.

So, we have those two established facts. If need be I will not speculate beyond what we know to be true.

Now don't no one start to say that I said there was no death in the world before Adam. I keep hearing that. What I said was there was no sin and death though sin, before Adam. Or actually it was Paul who said that.

Romans 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:





 

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:40 PM lucaspa said this in Post #20 

Thank you. Of course, I would rather be doing other things, but correcting you needs doing. 

Oh, you think so. Don't let me get in the way of you doing something productive with your time. I would not want you to waste any of your time on my account.     

I have taken the effort to show how your ideas are contradicted by both Scripture and Creation.  You never bother to answer.

You have not shown me anything at all. All you have done is wasted time and tried to be a hinderance to God.  

We know what you are.  A false prophet.

Who is we? You and the serpent? Let me see you back this accusation up with scripture. In fact, lets go right to scripture now.

Matthew 24:11-12 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [12] And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Interesting, false prophets seem to be associated with "lawlessness". The truth is, we teach perfection and that man can live free from sin. Just the opposite of being lawless.  

Luke 6:26
    Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
        For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Are you a man? If your a man then why are you not speaking well of me if you claim I am a "false prophet"?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, 

Ok, what does Peter say about false teachers and false prophets?

2 Peter 2:10
    and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.

2 Peter 2:14
    having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. 

Oh, here we are adultery, more sin, more works of the flesh.

Sorry, your in error yet again, I do not meet the test. We teach just the opposite. That your to nail your flesh to the cross along with Jesus, so the life of Christ can dwell you you.  

Would you like to continue our study on this topic?

Did you know that Jesus did not accuse anyone to the Father?

John 5:45
    Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust.

But just who is the one that accuses people.

Rev. 12:10b for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Oh, it would seem that the serpent is the one who accuses people.

Matthew 16:23b "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Now tell me, are you mindful of the things of God. You who want to accuse me? Or are you mindful of the things of man?


 



 

 




 


 


 

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

The point I was trying to make is that these burials indicate that a non-human species was conscious of death and had burial rituals evidenced by this site. Furthermore, this awareness of death and such burial rituals came long before the 6,000 year benchmark that keeps getting repeated (though agriculture predates that benchmark).

And lucaspa was right, I also recall John saying that there was no death before sin in another thread.

 

[JohnR7]

Yesterday at 08:09 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #32 And lucaspa was right, I also recall John saying that there was no death before sin in another thread.

Well, between the two of you, then you should be able to find that post and back up what your saying. It would seem a bit absurd to me that I would say that when I just recently did a search on the cause of death for prehistoric man.

What I said was there was no death from sin. Actually Paul said that:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

So, no matter what you think I said, this is the verse I was refering to. We can have a discussion about it if you want.




 

 

[Freodin]

Question: how do you know the difference between a death from sin, and a death without sin?

 

[budoka]

JohnR7, thank you for taking part in this thread. It's a real shame no other Christians have participated. Maybe the question is too hard for them? You show imagination, at least!

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 12:58 PM Freodin said this in Post #34

Question: how do you know the difference between a death from sin, and a death without sin?

In terms of Adam and Eve, there would have been no death, they had access to the tree of life and it was God's plan for them to live forever. Even those of us who are redeemed will be given a new body and we will once again have access to the tree of life so that we will live forever.

Rev. 22:2
    In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Of course the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden and only those who were in the Garden had access to it. But God is going to restore this earth, and someday the whole earth will become as the Garden in Eden was. Then there will be no more death. It is the final enemy to be conquered.

 

[JohnR7]

Yesterday at 08:09 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #32 this awareness of death and such burial rituals came long before the 6,000 year benchmark that keeps getting repeated

There was death in the world, even there was death in the land of Eden. Only in the Garden in the land of Eden was the tree of life. If you look at my aviator that is the angel that God placed in the entrance to the Garden of Eden to keep man out, after Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden.

Genesis 3:24
    So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life.





 

 

[Freodin]

Sorry, John, that did not answer my question: what is the difference between a death from sin, and a death without sin. Dead is dead, isn´t it?

 

[gladiatrix]

Today at 08:00 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #33

Well, between the two of you, then you should be able to find that post and back up what your saying. It would seem a bit absurd to me that I would say that when I just recently did a search on the cause of death for prehistoric man.

What I said was there was no death from sin. Actually Paul said that:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

So, no matter what you think I said, this is the verse I was refering to. We can have a discussion about it if you want.  

Just a "post or 2", eh??!!?? Ask and ye shall receive....
When I entered the search terms "death+sin" and JohnR7 (search parameter "return as posts") I got 78 hits, here is a sample......

Post #135

It does't? What about Cain?
/snip verse]

According to the Bible the only people alive would have been Adam, Eve & Cain. If Cain was going to be thrown out of the Land of Eden, just who was he afraid of, that was going to kill him?

Do you know how many skulls they have found of prehistoric man with a smashed skull? It was not a safe place to live back then. They seldom died from a disease, usually they died from an accident, act of nature or an act of violence.

They do not find a lot of disease in the bones of prehistoric man. The skeltons they find of civilized man have rotten teeth and diseased bones. Because it was though Adam that "sin" entered into the world, and death through sin.

Post # 89

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

If Noah was perfect even after sin and death though sin entered into the world. How much more Adam before sin entered into the world. Both Noah and Adam walked with God

Why do you try to put the "blame" on Paul now? You have been claiming that Adam/Eve = sin = death for quite some time.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

My point was not that death did not exist prior to agriculture; my point was that a non-modern-human species practiced burial rituals and were conscious of death just as modern humans are. How is this reasonable if modern humans are unique creations?