Naturists

[SpiritPsalmist]

That said...I would wonder how many at a nudist camp are there for the freedom and how many are there for the gawking....

From what I'm told the uncomfortableness and the ability to not be obvious when you're having a difficult time keeping your eyes on peoples faces goes away with time. They say it's uncomfortable for some at first because we are basically taught from birth that being unclothed is nasty. Little children are always ripping their clothes off and parents are forever putting them back on telling them "no one wants to see you that way" and "that's nasty" etc, etc, etc.

Again, I say, I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS, I just have friends who are into this and I don't know what to say to them that is backed up, solidly, by scripture. Other than what we "feel" what is "nasty" about being unclothed? Why is it sinful?

 

[non-religious]

[Quaffer]
Again, I say, I'M NOT DEFENDING THIS,

Hi... I find it interesting that you feel the need to repeatidly state that your not defending this. Why is that? Do you consider it sinful? Are you slightly embarrassed about it (totally understandable)? I view it as a harmless pursuit that a few people in the privacy of their own confines enjoy and participate in. It's obviously not for you or I, but I fail to see where the problem is with it. Given that the whole issue of sex is not applicable in what they do and the reasons why they meet.

Where it does become a problem is when they try to force their beliefs upon the public. For example, over here in the UK we have a group who are quite renoun for walking the streets naked in order to make a point about the foolishness of wearing clothes (their opinion, I find wearing clothes incredibly wise) These individuals target busy town centres and city streets because they know the media will turn up and expose (excuse the pun) their protests. They are totally mad.... they don't care about offending anyone, especially children and they have made true naturists (I can't believe I'm actually defending naturists) look bad and perverted.

In school we had to paint a picture of a live nude model. It was funny and we were laughing because we were embarrassed. The naked model had no problem whatsoever with it because she was comfortable in her own skin and could seperate nakedness from sex. Something many of us have a very difficult job doing

 

[JimfromOhio]

It's a common experience among those who practice nudity that people are much more open and friendly in that environment. The positive words "modesty" and "decency" have been corrupted to mean "shame over one's body." Nudity is labeled immodest and indecent only because somebody said it should be that way. In different families or cultures, different things are labeled immodest. Within a family or culture where nudity is accepted, nudity is modest.

Is public breastfeeding not modest?

 

[9-iron]

I agree but how do you explain what the reflection of the light is not when what scripture we have does not address what we are saying is bad?

I can understand where you are coming from. The issue is that society isn't going to accept your gospel if you are involved in activies labeled taboo by society. I think it is wrong. Think about it this way: "inappropriate contentography is sinful, pre-maritial sex is sinful, etc, etc. " Yet you are part of a Christian nudist camp? Those you are trying to reach in the world are going to laugh you off a religious nut!!

You are just going to weaken your credibility. Especially in a society where people are looking for anything they can to discredit the gospel. Just won't work.

My opinion is that we Christians are becoming more closely yoked with the world everyday. All the reasonings, Biblical analogy, etc in the world won't change the call and standard God expects of us.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Finding what is sin and what is not sin in the bible:

Regarding "direct sin". In the Old Testament, it mentioned what foods we can and cannot eat and how those foods must be prepared and eaten. In the New Testament, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." This mean that the meats formerly considered unclean were now cleansed. (Read Acts, Chapter 10). Under the old testament LAW cannot eat certain food (example: pork) however under the new testament GRACE, we can eat pork.

The New Testament (Reference: Book of Galatians, Chapter 5) speaks about the believer’s freedom or liberty in Christ, but what exactly does this mean biblically speaking for the Christian? Christian liberty means the power to do as we ought by God’s enablement in accordance with the way Christians have been recreated in Christ. True liberty means the freedom to be all that we were designed to be, but this is not a freedom that is without restrictions or responsibilities. Plainly speaking, without law, there could be no freedom.

"One of the marks of maturity is the ability to disagree without becoming disagreeable. It takes grace. In fact, handling disagreements with tact is one of the crowning achievements of grace." Chuck Swindoll

Charles Swindoll paraphrases the main points of Romans 14 in his book "The Grace Awakening:"

"Nothing that is not specifically designated as evil in Scripture is evil — but rather a matter of one's personal preference or taste. So let it be. Even if you personally would not do what another is doing, let it be. And you who feel the freedom to do so, don't flaunt it or mock those who disagree. We are in the construction business, not destruction. And let's all remember that God's big-picture kingdom plan is not being shaped by small things like what one person prefers over another, but by large things, like righteousness and peace and joy."

My thoughts are this: those who are Christians who are in this lifestyle can do so and those who are Christians who choose not to be in this lifestyle can also not do this. This is between God and believers.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hi... I find it interesting that you feel the need to repeatidly state that your not defending this. Why is that?

Yea, I know. I guess I think that at any post someone is going to go off on me and accuse me of supporting lewdness, etc. Sorry. I'll try not to say that anymore.

Do you consider it sinful?

I'm not sure if it's sinful or not. Lewdness is sin, sexual promiscuity is sin, but is simply being unclothed in an environment created specifically for that a sin? I'm not sure.

Are you slightly embarrassed about it (totally understandable)?

A little bit.

I view it as a harmless pursuit that a few people in the privacy of their own confines enjoy and participate in. It's obviously not for you or I, but I fail to see where the problem is with it. Given that the whole issue of sex is not applicable in what they do and the reasons why they meet.

See, thats where I'm trying to dig. Most that are against it, say the issue of sex is applicable no matter how much denial one gives. I'm thinking that if that is true, then we should be able to point to a scripture, not alluding to it but proving it...

We definately know it's sin to murder, steal, lie, lust after, etc., but there is nothing that seems to say "being unclothed", in the surroundings supplied for that (since public nudity is against the law) is sin.

Where it does become a problem is when they try to force their beliefs upon the public. For example, over here in the UK we have a group who are quite renoun for walking the streets naked in order to make a point about the foolishness of wearing clothes (their opinion, I find wearing clothes incredibly wise)

These individuals target busy town centres and city streets because they know the media will turn up and expose (excuse the pun) their protests. They are totally mad.... they don't care about offending anyone, especially children and they have made true naturists (I can't believe I'm actually defending naturists) look bad and perverted.

Now ya know where I'm comin' from.

In school we had to paint a picture of a live nude model. It was funny and we were laughing because we were embarrassed. The naked model had no problem whatsoever with it because she was comfortable in her own skin and could seperate nakedness from sex. Something many of us have a very difficult job doing

Thats what my friends say too.

 

[9-iron]

but is simply being unclothed in an environment created specifically for that a sin? I'm not sure.

Considering I have yet to meet a man that wouldn't struggle with lust around naked women, I'm still not buying it. It would, without doubt create an enviroment that would open the door for lust.

Besides, you know what the Bible says, whatever causes you to sin, cut it off???

 

[non-religious]

[9-iron]

Considering I have yet to meet a man that wouldn't struggle with lust around naked women, I'm still not buying it. It would, without doubt create an enviroment that would open the door for lust.

Yeah but your making that assumption based upon your circumstances and those around you. Do you actually know any naturists? Do you even know anyone who poses naked for artists to draw?

One more.....

Do you know anyone who belongs to a South American or African tribe that freely walks around, hunts, cooks, eats, debates, plays etc... totally naked? (I'm assuming you don't, right?)

My point being, to you and I we may very well be inclined to allow our thoughts to turn into something resembling lust, but that's because of the culture and the environment we have been raised and exposed (again pardon the pun) to. Let's face it most men have a hard enough time struggling to avoid lustful thoughts at our local greengrocers. To these naturists it's perfectally normal and acceptable behaviour. I'm not familiar with the actual statistics regarding the age at which people become naturists, but I'm pretty certain many of them are raised in such environments and are therefore conditioned in going naked.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Considering I have yet to meet a man that wouldn't struggle with lust around naked women, I'm still not buying it. It would, without doubt create an enviroment that would open the door for lust.

Besides, you know what the Bible says, whatever causes you to sin, cut it off???

I understand what you're saying but are the men you have met Naturists? I believe you are talking about men who only see an unclothed women generally in a provocative setting. The setting of the Naturist environment is not provocative. It's not a group orgy.

Obviously, in the frame of mind that you are referring to (connecting being unclothed w/sex) then that environment is not for you...however, does that mean it's a sin for everyone else even though their frame of mind may not be in the same place yours is?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I can understand where you are coming from. The issue is that society isn't going to accept your gospel if you are involved in activies labeled taboo by society. I think it is wrong. Think about it this way: "inappropriate contentography is sinful, pre-maritial sex is sinful, etc, etc. " Yet you are part of a Christian nudist camp? Those you are trying to reach in the world are going to laugh you off a religious nut!!

You are just going to weaken your credibility. Especially in a society where people are looking for anything they can to discredit the gospel. Just won't work.

My opinion is that we Christians are becoming more closely yoked with the world everyday. All the reasonings, Biblical analogy, etc in the world won't change the call and standard God expects of us.

Not if those in the world are Naturists too. From what my friends tell me, their Christian Naturists and they are in a Christian Naturist community and they reach out to the lost in the other Naturists communities. (I know...it sounds crazy...but thats what they say)

You are still linking being "unclothed" with sex. From what my friends say, statistics are extremely low in teen sexual activity among Naturists. There is no "curiosity" over what they are accustomed to.

 

[9-iron]

You are still linking being "unclothed" with sex. From what my friends say, statistics are extremely low in teen sexual activity among Naturists. There is no "curiosity" over what they are accustomed to.

I fully comprehend what you and non-relig. are saying. I'm just not biting off on it.

Let's face it most men have a hard enough time struggling to avoid lustful thoughts at our local greengrocers.

Exactly my point. I can't see how the temptation wouldn't be even worse. I can view other women from a standpoint they are just flat out beautiful. Clothes on, a man can still tell a women has a great figure. I can also appreciate a good looking women for being just that. No sexual inference in my view of the women. However, it is still a battle to view women in this manner.

I equate the same through a 'naturist' eyes. Sure, it is easy to say I see these women from a 'naturist' standpoint. But, if an attractive, nicely proprotionate women walks up to the 'buffet', well, let's say it would be extremely difficult for ANY MAN, naturist or not to fight off the temptation to lust after her.

Anyway, like I said I see your point, I just can't agree with it.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I thought there would be more of an uproar from this part of the forum I know when my friends first mentioned it to me my first response was "no way Jose'". Christian and Naturist together....I don't think so. Yet if scripture does not apply any sin to it, other than a persons personal struggle with lust which happens with them whether the person is dressed or not then I guess there is really not much I can say to to my friends.

 

[soldout]

I thought there would be more of an uproar from this part of the forum I know when my friends first mentioned it to me my first response was "no way Jose'". Christian and Naturist together....I don't think so. Yet if scripture does not apply any sin to it, other than a persons personal struggle with lust which happens with them whether the person is dressed or not then I guess there is really not much I can say to to my friends.

sure. If they are as completely devoid of the meaning of the scripture, go for it.

 

[Andrew]

I have a hard time believing any red-blooded American male would say there is no sexual connotation.

Count me in as well, and all other Asian men.

If there's no sexual connotation, either one is impotent, or not really a man.

 

[Andrew]

I thought there would be more of an uproar from this part of the forum I know when my friends first mentioned it to me my first response was "no way Jose'". Christian and Naturist together....I don't think so. Yet if scripture does not apply any sin to it, other than a persons personal struggle with lust which happens with them whether the person is dressed or not then I guess there is really not much I can say to to my friends.

God created animals with clothing. Animals have fur, hair... birds have feathers, etc. These are all from the animal itself, in-born. IOW they dont wear shirts and pants and shoes.

Man had a glory covering him. When he sinned, that glory left and he became naked. Today, his covering is outward. ie he has to go to the mall and buy clothes to put on.

In short, naked is not normal. If it was, all the angels in heaven and Jesus himself would walk around naked.

 

[msufan]

God created animals with clothing. Animals have fur, hair... birds have feathers, etc. These are all from the animal itself, in-born. IOW they dont wear shirts and pants and shoes.

Man had a glory covering him. When he sinned, that glory left and he became naked. Today, his covering is outward. ie he has to go to the mall and buy clothes to put on.

In short, naked is not normal. If it was, all the angels in heaven and Jesus himself would walk around naked.

Several people mentioned the glory covering man before he fell. I had never heard this before. Can you clarify? I just see from Gen 2:25 that they were naked, but felt no shame; after eating the fruit, they then "realized" their nakedness. Where are you getting this glory covering thing?

 

[The wonderful me]

I have a hard time believing any red-blooded American male would say there is no sexual connotation. That is him being a normal American male. If a naked woman { decent looking of course } stands in front of me there is only one 'normal' thing my brain is thinking about!!!! That would be natural, or at least in my culture. Of course what is natural isn't always right, but still!!!

It seems to be a shame that all you can comment on is the sexual aspect of being nude. And the comment about "decent looking of course" is an out and out insult to every person, not just woman. It shows your predigest very clearly.

I call total bs on the subject. Them folks aren't right in the head or something.

I wonder how many people would say that about you and your beliefs. Regardless of whether we agree with their views or not, we should at least respect their right to have them.

You can bet no one will be packing Viagra along for the week-end at the nudist colony!!!

Another sexual innuendo. It is clear to me where your mind is. And what does the bible say about that? Where a man's mind is, there is his heart also?

The ignorance of some people.

Ignorance is a two way street. Have you taken the time to see why they believe what they believe? Have you taken the time to research this? This comment was in answer to "The Bible very clearly states that when Adam and Eve were in right with God, they were naked," said David Blood, executive director of the project.

I did a quick check on this using a few sources for information. Interestingly enough Mr. Blood was right. But then Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden…after God made them coverings. But why? To cover their shame? According to one Christian Naturist pastor it was because they were being removed from a tropical climate and thrown into a harsh climate. The coverings were made to protect them.

He said, "Considering they had sinned, it's not surprising that God tossed them out of Eden. What most people don't realize is that God never said they must wear clothing to cover their bodies. Look, if you will, at the passage that talks about that. God gives punishments for their sin. But wearing clothing is not among them."

If they were so right, why did they run and hide from God in shame of their nakedness????

As for the "hide from God in shame of their nakedness" what makes you so sure they are hiding? Does not David say, "Where can I go that you will not be there, O God?"

I will be fair on this topic and take the time needed to properly research the views and beliefs of the Christians that are also Naturists. When I am done I will present what I have learned. But there is one thing that is certain….be they right, be they wrong, it is to God who will hold them accountable. Here's a thought…what if they ARE right? We will be held accountable for NOT being naturists, won't we?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

In short, naked is not normal. If it was, all the angels in heaven and Jesus himself would walk around naked.

How do we know they are'nt? Somehow I don't think they are clothed in manmade material. How do we know that what is described as "robes" is not actually the light permeating the whole of heaven? Robes of righteousness ... robes of glory....LIGHT! I guess we'll know when we get there.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

If there's no sexual connotation, either one is impotent, or not really a man.

I told my friend of this comment and his response is:

not all men place a higher value on sex as they do. A REAL man knows how to control his urges and lustful desires.

I would agree with his response because that's what scripture says.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy--meditate on these things.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Scripture would not tell us to do something that is impossible. Obviously if one has trouble walking in the light of these scriptures then they must do whatever necessary to cause themselves to not stumble, however, just 'cause it's their weakness does not mean its everyones . Those who are unable to keep control of their eyes and minds in the area of the flesh struggle with it whether they see it at the beach or at church and whether it's barely clothed or covered from head to toe. Either place we are still responsible for our own thought life and where our mind goes when fed certain data.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I appreciate everyone's input here