Naturist Christian Fellowships - could they work here?

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crashedman

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Hi,

I got this reply from a humanist/atheist guy in America as to the reasons why our society is neutoric abiout the human form. He is one of the pioneers of promoting naturism through the Internet with his site 'Being & Nakedness' as well as moderating the group 'NNN List', which I have been a subscriber to since 1998.

Jan Goss <jgoss@ucalgary.ca> wrote:

> There are a couple of points I would like to deal with. First, you say
> that few modern cultures are comfortable with nudity. Is the reason for
> this simply because clothing compulsiveness was exported to those
> countries (by missionaries, for example)?

None of this question of why nudity and the body are often considered
"offensive" or "disgusting" in modern cultures is especially simple.
In fact, it's a very complex thing that's going on, I think, but I also
think I can sort out many of the issues.

The exportation of nudity-aversion from more advanced/powerful cultures
to less advanced/powerful ones certainly happens. It's still going on --
most people in those few remaining isolated tribes in the the Amazon (or
Africa or Australia) now seem to feel they have to wear at least some
sort or clothing, at least when they come in contact with outsiders.
They are made to feel inferior if they don't.

> The cultures didn't naturally develop clothing compulsion, but rather
> were influenced by a more powerful culture. (Not necessarily better, but
> more powerful.)

But it had to start somewhere, right? And there need to be factors that
keep the bad attitudes alive, since they're basically irrational and (as
we know) it's really more pleasant to be naked when possible.

So let's start to analyze what's going on. First, let's distinguish
*disgust* with nudity from *aversion* to nudity. Disgust is what this
thread started out with, but it's a subset of aversion. Aversion is more
general, because it arises from social, economic, and political factors.
It's not necessarily a visceral emotion like disgust. It's just more
like the feeling of inferiority poor people experience because of their
socially subordinate position, which is often signified by partial or
total lack of "good clothes". This is the clothes = status factor. In
most societies, more clothes = more status. Going naked was (usually)
for slaves or menial laborers.

Religion is a related factor, and clearly a very important one also in
the aversion people feel towards nudity. Religion has always been used
by social, military, and political elites as a tool to manipulate and
control the masses. This is blatantly obvious in one of the two main U.
S. political parties today. Nudity-related and sexuality-related issues
are very prominent in such political manipulation.

But nudity would not be such a convenient point of leverage if there
were not powerful underlying emotions involved. One such class of
emotions has to do with finding and keeping a mate. Physical
attractiveness (or lack thereof) of one's naked body is a huge factor in
attracting and keeping a mate. Once one has a mate, jealousy and the
fear of losing one's mate to the competition is always a salient factor.
Clothing provides a means to sharply limit and control situations where
this aspect of the naked body can come out in the open. Use of clothing
lets people (especially women) control as much as possible when and how
they use nudity to their advantage with mate finding/keeping.

Yet this still doesn't address the issue of "disgust". I've been saving
that for last. It's certainly another powerful emotion. I think the
connection of disgust with nakedness arises from at least four separate
and somewhat independent directions:

1. The parts of our bodies which, by definition, determine whether
or not we are considered naked, depending on whether or not they
are covered, are our most sexually significant parts. Sexuality
itself is closely connected with the emotion of disgust.
2. Those same parts of our bodies are also the areas through which
we excrete waste. Also obviously "disgusting".
3. As we get older, our bodies accumulate sags, bulges, wrinkles,
and scars, which keep reminding us we are getting older and
closer to dying. Older bodies are generally considered more
disgusting bodies. Conversely, young bodies, especially children's,
are hardly "disgusting" at all.
4. Of much more importance to women than to men is the fact that
naked (male) bodies can be a strong reminder of the danger of
rape. Rape is obviously disgusting, and not just because of
the sexual element.

So what is the common theme here with these "disgusting" elements that
are closely connected with nudity? Obviously it is the relation that
all have to our physical health and well-being.

Sexuality can be dangerous because many nasty diseases are transmitted
that way. People understood this intuitively before they understood
exactly what the biology was, but it's certainly much better understood
now, and therefore more strongly perceived as a danger.

Body waste is dangerous because it too carries disease (cholera,
dysentery, etc.). Note that this is especially a problem in relatively
modern societies with high population density, and much less a problem
in more "primitive" foraging societies. There's much more awareness of
this danger, too -- it wasn't so long ago that even "modern" societies
were more tolerant of human and animal **** in the streets. Modern
societies have now become very conscious and concerned about good
sanitation, but take things to an extreme by demanding clothes, when a
well-placed towel (or more frequent bathing) will suffice.

Physical decay is part sign and part cause of health problems. Rashes
and open sores may indicate a contageous disease. We are just now
becoming aware of how bad for our health obesity is. I think
nudist/naturist organizations are making a mistake by proclaiming that
all body sizes and shapes are equally "good". That just isn't true, and
people have always recognized this intuitively to some extent, which is
partly why fat people are stigmatized. Evolution has provided us with
a sense of what makes bodies "attractive" as a guide to mate selection --
older bodies are less healthy and fertile, hence less desirable for
purposes of spreading one's genes (and being around long enough to
raise the children).

Lastly, rape is obviously not salubrious. Even if the rapist doesn't
kill or brutalize his victim, simple pregnancy is dangerous to one's
health. Seven or eight months of discomfort followed by a hazardous
and painful birth event is not a trifle.

The bottom line is that these four factors which mainly contribute to
the "disgust" people associate with nudity are all closely related to
our physical health. We fear that which threatens our health. Disgust is
an emotion that evolution has provided us to warn of dangers we should
avoid.

But people who find nudity itself disgusting are over generalizing,
since it's not at all hard to avoid the health dangers even if naked
-- and thereby enjoy the health benefits.

Charles Daney
 
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loribee59

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Can't help but notice that sometimes people will lie, twist, garble, connive to the point they start to believe it's the truth. Not only that, it's also dangerous....it's bound to be judged by Christ when we are face to face with him.

To Dario~ who are you REALLY trying to convince~ yourself, or others? Were you looking for approval, because if you do, you'll get only some naysayers. And you can only convince yourself into a corner, believiing it's ok. If you have people agreeing with you, and ACTUALLY joining this "cult" (yes, I'm going to call it as it is), then you will be judged for falsely leading others away from the truth, you will be judged as a false teacher of the Bible. No amount of scriptures you put out, & twist it around will ever, EVER prove that it's ok. I will call you on that. And you certainly don't want THAT on your head, when you give account to Jesus on how you mislead others..!

Oh, BTW~ For the rest of eternity, we'll be clothed in white ROBES of righteousness. Ironic, isn't it?? ;)

~Lori
 
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Workingmum

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Well I haven't read many posts on this thread - mmm, do I really even want to get started on this one? - but I am going to make one short comment:

Could Naturist Christian Fellowships work here? NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How perverted!!!!!! If anything, we don't wear enough clothes to church according to Paul! He said that no women should enter church with her head uncovered! What would he say about no clothes at all!!!! That is just disgusting!!!

(Don't mean to be judgemental at all - you ask for opinions, and that's what I have given. Sorry if I offend anyone!)
 
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Natman

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loribee59 said:
If you have people agreeing with you, and ACTUALLY joining this "cult" (yes, I'm going to call it as it is), then you will be judged for falsely leading others away from the truth, you will be judged as a false teacher of the Bible. No amount of scriptures you put out, & twist it around will ever, EVER prove that it's ok. I will call you on that. And you certainly don't want THAT on your head, when you give account to Jesus on how you mislead others..!
Actually, there are literally hundreds of thousands of Christians (very conservative Christians) that hold to similar beliefs as Dario pertaining to "nakedness" and the Bible. I am one. You will find others on this site in other similar threads.

I have searched the Bible front to back for several years, investigating every single verse that could even remotely be contrived to ban mere "nakedness". I have not found a single verse that, when taken in context or examined for it's metaphoric intent declares mere non-sexual "nakedness" to be sinful or shameful in God's eyes. In fact, in reading the verses pertaining to "modesty", it would appear that it is actually "over-dressing" that is sinful.

loribee59 said:
Oh, BTW~ For the rest of eternity, we'll be clothed in white ROBES of righteousness. Ironic, isn't it?? ;)
This is one of those "metaphoric" verses I referred to above. "White robes of righteousness" does not refer to physical body coverings (rags or skins) at all, but the covering of the perfectly PURE righteousness accounted to us, not of our own, but of Christ Jesus. This is to say that, even in heaven, our souls will still be corrupted by the sins of our lives. We will still need to be covered in Christ's righteousness to approach the Thrown of God.

Son-cerely,
Nate
 
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Natman

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Bevlina said:
Nobody is being judgemental here Mum...but, it's not natural to walk around in the nuddie.
Doesn't matter about your looks Four! They wouldn't be looking at your face anyway!
It IS "NATURAL" to walk aroung naked because, just like every other creature, it is how God made us. From the beginning of time to today, He has made and is still makeing us "naked and unashamed". It is our man-made Victorian society that has forced "shame" on God's creation, not God Himself.
:amen:


We have become unaccustomed to seeing naked human bodies, and so, we tend to act very immaturely when it happens.

I remember having to group-shower for the first time in seventh grade. The coaches would not allow us to leave the locker room each day until we showered and turned in our wet towel. The first day brought fear and trembling, snickers and snyde remarks. By the third day, everyone simply grabbed a towel and enjoyed the fresh water. We had already become accustomed to the variety of shapes, sizes and colors God produced. No big deal.:yawn:

I was convicted of my own immaturity about twelve years ago, when, while on my way to work, I passed a naked man walking along the road, covering his genitals with his hands. I rationalized that I was in too much of a hurry to help him, so I sped past him and went on to work. As soon as I got out of my car Jesus' words "You saw that I was naked and you clothed me." went rushing through my head. I jumped back in my car and went back, but he was already gone. My immaturity toward "nakedness" prevented me from reaching out to someone in need. He looked fairly normal, well groomed, not deranged and may have been robbed, or merely locked out of his house. It was obvious that he didn't have a weapon. I had no obvious reason not to help him, other than the fact that he had no clothes. I'll NEVER forget the shame I felt for myself, not him. :cry:

Son-cerely,
Nate
 
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crashedman

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Dear Nate,

Natman said:
It IS "NATURAL" to walk aroung naked because, just like every other creature, it is how God made us. From the beginning of time to today, He has made and is still makeing us "naked and unashamed". It is our man-made Victorian society that has forced "shame" on God's creation, not God Himself.
:amen:

I beg to differ with you on this.

We have become unaccustomed to seeing naked human bodies, and so, we tend to act very immaturely when it happens.[/qote]

Certain nakedness doesn't shock people: for instance naked babies and toddlers playing on a textile beach = charming innocence, whereas if they were at a beach with naked adults, they are perceived as being at risk.

I remember having to group-shower for the first time in seventh grade. The coaches would not allow us to leave the locker room each day until we showered and turned in our wet towel. The first day brought fear and trembling, snickers and snyde remarks. By the third day, everyone simply grabbed a towel and enjoyed the fresh water. We had already become accustomed to the variety of shapes, sizes and colors God produced. No big deal.:yawn:

This has got nothing to do with naturism.

My high school memories are rather hazy now, but I can tell you that we only ever used the showers after swimming, and I never played football or any sport where I was required to shower afterwards.

The concern that we have today is ensuring that children and teens are protected from sexual predators.
Thank heavens no teacher or student ever laid a finger on me when I did phys ed at school or made fun of my penis size and shape. The only people who have ever done so have been Christian teenagers.

I was convicted of my own immaturity about twelve years ago, when, while on my way to work, I passed a naked man walking along the road, covering his genitals with his hands. I rationalized that I was in too much of a hurry to help him, so I sped past him and went on to work. As soon as I got out of my car Jesus' words "You saw that I was naked and you clothed me." went rushing through my head. I jumped back in my car and went back, but he was already gone. My immaturity toward "nakedness" prevented me from reaching out to someone in need. He looked fairly normal, well groomed, not deranged and may have been robbed, or merely locked out of his house. It was obvious that he didn't have a weapon. I had no obvious reason not to help him, other than the fact that he had no clothes. I'll NEVER forget the shame I felt for myself, not him. :cry:

Did you have some spare clothes for him in the trunk of your car at the time?

Don't worry, I think all of us would have done the same thing too.


Crashedman
 
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Natman

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crashedman said:
Dear Nate,
I beg to differ with you on this.
On what?

crashedman said:
This has got nothing to do with naturism.
Referring to Jr. HS showers, I think that it is the short amount of time it took us to get used to seeing each other naked, without the childishness usually associated with it that relates to "naturism". Similarly, people that "willfully" enter a naturist setting for the first time experience only momentary embarrassment before they realize how natural it feels to be free of our clothing in almost ANY environment.

crashedman said:
The concern that we have today is ensuring that children and teens are protected from sexual predators.
Agreed. But the abundance or lack of clothing on the part of adults involved should not change that. If anything, a lack of clothing should make a "predators" intents a little more obvious. That is the "battle cry" for the proponents of the youth naturist camps.

crashedman said:
Did you have some spare clothes for him in the trunk of your car at the time?

Don't worry, I think all of us would have done the same thing too.
As I recall, all I had extra was a short "Member's Only" jacket. Regardless, I should have stopped.

Thanks.
Son-cerely,
Nate
 
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crashedman

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Hi Nate,

Natman said:

Your assertion for blaming man-made Victorian Society on the reason why we have such repressed ideas on sexuality and the human form. Such attitudes were prevalent in Biblical times with the Hasidic Jews who attested that public exposure of the male genitalia apart from circumcision was a social taboo.

Even before Queen Victoria's time, we did have tabooes about the body in the Western world. The European Christians were perhaps the most modest, because after all it was the French, the Spanish and the Dutch who were the first to colonise America, Australia, Africa and the Pacific. Funny how attitudes have changed substantially over the ages.

Referring to Jr. HS showers, I think that it is the short amount of time it took us to get used to seeing each other naked, without the childishness usually associated with it that relates to "naturism". Similarly, people that "willfully" enter a naturist setting for the first time experience only momentary embarrassment before they realize how natural it feels to be free of our clothing in almost ANY environment.

Not in my case. In late 2002, I took two young Christian friends from a Brisbane radio chat forum to the swimming group I have attended since 1994. The girl who was 19 at the time didn't remove her clothes and nobody asked her to, but she still enjoyed herself enough to have a second visit. No-one took any particular notice of her. The fact that she was the only girl amongst a plethora of middle aged to elderly men didn't worry her in the least.

By contrast, the guy who was in his 20's took one look, froze for about ten seconds with a horrified look on his face, ran back to his vehicle and drove off as if he was in a getaway car.
Nobody was engaging in any public sexual conduct or behaving in a drunk and disorderly manner.

Agreed. But the abundance or lack of clothing on the part of adults involved should not change that. If anything, a lack of clothing should make a "predators" intents a little more obvious. That is the "battle cry" for the proponents of the youth naturist camps.

Even though I have never attended such places, I would say that they are quite correct. From what I can gather, I think that naturist youths aren't impressed by smutty humour or literature to the same degree that their non-naturist peers are. They employ some kind of a 'buddy system' to make sure that there isn't anything going on that shouldn't be.

I had a look at the AANR's rules and regulations for the youth summer camps and I feel that I must commend them for imposing such good codes of conduct. The only thing that I think is a bit of a worry is the 'pudding toss' where they ladle buckets of chocolate sauce over each other. "Waste not, want not" is what I was always taught about food when I was younger.


Crashedman
 
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Sascha Fitzpatrick

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Dario,

If I remember correctly you got in BIG trouble for doing that with her once it was made known, and if you know that girl as well as you think you do, I'm sure you'd understand WHY she wasn't (verbally or psychologically) going to have issues with something like that. If it's the girl I think it is, then you should know that she was going through some MAJOR self-esteem issues at that point, and that it was HIGHLY innapropriate to take her to that place, when she was in the situation she was in at that time.

:sigh: I'm surprised and disappointed to hear you using that as part of your excuse about why it's right...

Sasch
 
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crashedman

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Hi Sasch,

I think that you're going by hearsay, or somebody has made mountains out of molehills on this one down the line that I'm not aware of.

I certainly didn't get the lady's family or friends screaming down my throat about it, least of all from her (if I'm thinking of the lady you are thinking about).

If she came across as an aggressive, anti-social type then I would never have considered taking her there in the first place. She certainly didn't cause any trouble to me or the others present.

That said, I *did* have somebody talk to me about my threads on naturism on that forum, and she sent me an e-mail about Susie Krabacher, which I pretty much agreed with.

Anyway, I prefer to just keep company with people my own age group now, and let the young-uns do their own thing.

If they want to poison their bodies with tobacco and other filth, get pregnant before they turn 21, get augmentation surgery and eat junky high-fat high-cholesterol foods and have vitamin D deficiency, hangups about their bodies, or let trashy 'princess' mags like 'Dolly', 'Girlfriend', 'Cleo', 'Cosmo' and 'Womans Day' do the thinking for them as to what they should be like or what is 'cool' then there's nothing I can do in my power to dissuade them.



Crashedman
 
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loribee59

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Bevlina said:
Hey! What's going on in here?

[sign] NO FIGHTING IN THE THREADS[/sign]

Ditto, either bury the hatchet or this thread gets locked up.

[sign]SO THERE![/sign]
 
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nick18

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Bevlina said:
Hey! What's going on in here?

[sign] NO FIGHTING IN THE THREADS[/sign]
the only way to resolve this is a [font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif][size=+1]rochambeau!!![/size][/font]... hmmm actually i think that would really not work if crashedman is naked all the time and that we need to males for it... it's such a sexist sport!...;) [urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rochambeau&r=d]

how about a thumb restle? or
how about paper rock sissors? or
egg and spoon race?
holy war?
heads or tails?

i dunno

whatever, back to uni work.:yawn:

[sign]keeping the peace through bad humor... and spelling[/sign]
 
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