Natural death

[Fish14]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

If this is true, why do unbelievers die both the natural death (body and soul separated) and the second death (man and God separated)? Aren't they punished twice for their sins?

Jesus died for my sins, but why do I die the first death?

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

Jesus died for my sins, but why do I die the first death?

The curse of Adam & Eve's sin still in effect.

 

[Adstar]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

If this is true, why do unbelievers die both the natural death (body and soul separated) and the second death (man and God separated)? Aren't they punished twice for their sins?

Jesus died for my sins, but why do I die the first death?

Our current corrupt natured bodies must die before we can be given new perfect eternal bodies.. Our sin dies with out bodies and we are freed from this corrupt state of being.. Being offered forgiveness of sin and transformation into perfect sinless bodies does not mean out current state of affairs changes..

Our flesh death is just a transition anyway..

 

[CrystalDragon]

The curse of Adam & Eve's sin still in effect.

But Jesus came to save us from that. If the curse is still in effect even after Jesus came to save us, why did nothing change? We shouldn't have the curse anymore because that was the reason Jesus came in the first place.

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

But Jesus came to save us from that. If the curse is still in effect even after Jesus came to save us, why did nothing change? We shouldn't have the curse anymore because that was the reason Jesus came in the first place.

It is like I am red-handed cheating on my wife. Maybe, my wife forgives me. But, the consequences still follow.... I am getting divorced by her. I am ordered to pay alimony & child support. Etc. Etc.

That's an (imaginary) example.

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

Our current corrupt natured bodies must die before we can be given new perfect eternal bodies..

Except Enoch, Elijah and the raptured Christians.

 

[CrystalDragon]

It is like I am red-handed cheating on my wife. Maybe, my wife forgives me. But, the consequences still follow.... I am getting divorced by her. I am ordered to pay alimony & child support. Etc. Etc.

That's an (imaginary) example.

Thing is, that example only works as an analogy if Jesus only came so God could forgive our sins (why would God need Jesus's death sacrifice just to forgive us, anyway?). But Jesus didn't come to just forgive us, he came to save us from the consequences of sin. That means freeing us from the curse. If Jesus didn't do that, then things haven't really changed from before Jesus showed up in the first place.

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

he came to save us from the consequences of sin.

Sorry. Could you point which verse says that "He came to save us from the consequences of sin"?

 

[Adstar]

Except Enoch, Elijah and the raptured Christians.

All these will have to have their natural bodies die before they can obtain eternal bodies.. Enoch Elijah and any other person who is caught up "raptured" all will have their old bodies destroyed and will be given new bodies in a twinkling of an eye..

(1 Corinthians 15:50-54 KJV) "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

 

[CrystalDragon]

Sorry. Could you point which verse says that "He came to save us from the consequences of sin"?

Ephesians 1:7 and 2 Corinthians 5:21 are two examples, plus I thought that was the entire point of Jesus coming in the first place. If that's not the case, what makes things so different between now and before Jesus?

 

[bling]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

If this is true, why do unbelievers die both the natural death (body and soul separated) and the second death (man and God separated)? Aren't they punished twice for their sins?

Jesus died for my sins, but why do I die the first death?

Is death "bad" in and of itself?
Death is the way bad people quit doing bad stuff and good people go home?
All the "curses" God put upon humans, actually help humans in fulfilling their earthly objective.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Is death "bad" in and of itself?
Death is the way bad people quit doing bad stuff and good people go home?
All the "curses" God put upon humans, actually help humans in fulfilling their earthly objective.

Then the "earthly objective" of some people is to die as soon as they're born, or before they're born, or live a short amount of time in agony or with a malfunctioning brain?

 

[Fish14]

I'm very bad at asking questions in a way that I will get the answer I want. I think it's better for me to answer my questions, and ask you to correct it. So, is this correct:

When Adam died, he died spiritually (was separated from God). His body started to decay and finally he died.
Because we're his descendants, we're spiritually dead from birth.
Jesus died physically (His soul and body separated) for our sins. Then He was reunited to His body in the resurrection.
Both believers and unbelievers die the physical death because they're Adam's descendants.
Unbelievers can't go to Heaven to the presence of God, because they are spiritually dead (separated from God).
Believers go to Heaven because Jesus died a physical death instead of them being separated from God for all eternity.

 

[bling]

Then the "earthly objective" of some people is to die as soon as they're born, or before they're born, or live a short amount of time in agony or with a malfunctioning brain?

Some people will never be able to complete their earthly object, but since we know God's Love they would go on to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and have only a strong child for wonderful parent type love. It could be that those with Godly type Love will get to care for, protect and preserve these with a lesser type of Love for all eternity.

 

[food4thought]

I'm very bad at asking questions in a way that I will get the answer I want. I think it's better for me to answer my questions, and ask you to correct it. So, is this correct:

When Adam died, he died spiritually (was separated from God). His body started to decay and finally he died.
Because we're his descendants, we're spiritually dead from birth.
Jesus died physically (His soul and body separated) for our sins. Then He was reunited to His body in the resurrection.
Both believers and unbelievers die the physical death because they're Adam's descendants.
Unbelievers can't go to Heaven to the presence of God, because they are spiritually dead (separated from God).
Believers go to Heaven because Jesus died a physical death instead of them being separated from God for all eternity.

I would add that Jesus experienced God's wrath in our place on the cross, which for the trinity was a temporary 2nd death in a sense.

 

[Fish14]

I would add that Jesus experienced God's wrath in our place on the cross, which for the trinity was a temporary 2nd death in a sense.

Yes, Jesus died the second death in our place.
The payment for our sin is infinite because the sins are against an infinite God. We're not infinite so we should be in hell for an eternity for our sins. Jesus could pay our sin debt by experiencing God's wrath only for a limited time because He's infinite.

But does that apply to our physical death? Was Jesus physically dead for 3 days so that we could escape being dead for all eternity?
Also if the penalty for sin is physical death and Hell, why does God let sinners live here for decades before sending them to Hell? What prevents them from believing in Jesus and being saved there?

However it seems that I'm starting to understand this

 

[food4thought]

But does that apply to our physical death?

No. Our physical death is a result of the curse. The curse is in effect at least until the Millennial Kingdom, if not until the new heavens and new earth.

Was Jesus physically dead for 3 days so that we could escape being dead for all eternity?

I am no scholar on this subject, so forgive me if I am not theologically accurate here... these are just my thoughts off the top of my head. Jesus' physical death was a part of fulfilling the type of an OT blood sacrifice... I believe the real work on the cross occurred when everything went dark and Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?". This is where Jesus took God's wrath for all our sins, and fulfilled God's righteous judgment against sin, saving us (who have placed our faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior) from the 2nd death. Jesus assured us of a resurrection, as well as the fact that His sacrifice was acceptable to God, by His resurrection from the dead.

Also if the penalty for sin is physical death and Hell, why does God let sinners live here for decades before sending them to Hell?

Because God is longsuffering and patient, not willing that any should perish.

What prevents them from believing in Jesus and being saved there?

Good question. I am not sure, but my thoughts on this is that God wants us to choose Him willingly by faith... once there is no reason to doubt God's existence then of course everyone is going to toe the line. But God wants willing worshippers who desire to be with Him... in order to believe in this age I think you have to want to believe, as there isn't (IMO) the kind of irrefutable hard core evidence that would convince the hardened skeptic. We have to want to believe in Jesus and the Father in order to come to faith in Him. Of course, once I came to faith in Him, He showed me that He was really there... but only after I came to faith.

Hope this helps;
Michael

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

If this is true, why do unbelievers die both the natural death (body and soul separated) and the second death (man and God separated)? Aren't they punished twice for their sins?

Jesus died for my sins, but why do I die the first death?

Death as a separation from our purpose for existing. That has not changed and absent the hope we have been given as a free gift (Grace) of Love that means it can change, the next life would just be a continuation of that separation.

For the those not given that Grace (predestined for damnation) they would just continue to be separated from God, both body and soul.