National Orthodox differences

[G4m]

Hi all!

What are the main differences between the different national Orthodox churches?

 

[prodromos]

Language
possibly a little bit of culture (small "t" traditions)
possibly venerate some different local saints that aren't so well known outside of each national church.

I can't really think of anything else since they have pretty much everything else in common.

John

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

You forgot about food!

 

[Moros]

You forgot about food!

Falls into culture .

 

[prodromos]

You forgot about food!

Goodness, yes! All those delicious unpronouncibles

 

[Michael G]

Vat? Ze kultural differences? In ze German Orthodox Church zer is no kultural differance! Vie make everyone fall in line!

 

[Matrona]

Hi all!

What are the main differences between the different national Orthodox churches?

I think there is a difference in the hats the archbishops wear.

Also, Russian churches' music (just the music itself, this doesn't affect the words) sounds more western. Greek and Antiochian music tends to sound more Byzantine. (In my Antiochian church, though, we sing Russian music because it is what the Archdiocese sent us and it's also easier for us to handle, since only one or two of us can even read sheet music.)

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

Vat? Ze kultural differences? In ze German Orthodox Church zer is no cultural differance! Vie make everyone fall in line!

In Rossiya-Matushka is great cultural difference between parishes, which do very short 2 hour long vigil, which do normal 3 hour long and which do too long 4 hour. Oh, also is difference between churches, in which no benches and in which all benches occupied by babushkas.

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

But can we really say that differences are only superficial? I don't mean in beliefs, of course, but maybe in views on some themes in Orthodoxy, in accents? I don't have answer on it myself, I don't really know my own Russian Orthodox culture, not to speak about Greek or Western, but I'd like to hear some thoughts.

For example, Fr. Alexandr Shmeman (where is Marjorie?) wrote how Russia wholeheartedly accepted idea of himility and it formed the Russian spirituality, as we see in examples of saints.

 

[Michael G]

The differences are superficial as we all believe the same Apostolic Faith.

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

The differences are superficial as we all believe the same Apostolic Faith.

Okay, maybe I worded my question not correctly, but can we say there are diffences between, say, spiritual paths of different people -- each has come to the same point, but ways were different. Is there difference betweew converts and cradle Orthodox? Why there can't be difference in spiritual paths of different nations?

 

[countrymousenc]

Here is how Father Bill explained the differences just recently... When the Orthodox Church has gone into new countries and cultures, it has accepted and incorporated certain things from that new culture (such as its language), without imposing merely cultural practices from its mother country.

(I would add) Here in the USA it hasn't been a 100% clean cultural break; for instance, in the OCA we use [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] willow branches as well as palm leaves on Palm Sunday. The Russian Church (our mother church) uses the willow branches as a substitute, since palm trees don't grow in Russia. Also, afaik, no uniquely American hymnody (melody and harmonies) has developed within the EOC here.

All Orthodox Churches celebrate the same Faith, but with some cultural variations.

 

[Marjorie]

But can we really say that differences are only superficial? I don't mean in beliefs, of course, but maybe in views on some themes in Orthodoxy, in accents? I don't have answer on it myself, I don't really know my own Russian Orthodox culture, not to speak about Greek or Western, but I'd like to hear some thoughts.

For example, Fr. Alexandr Shmeman (where is Marjorie?) wrote how Russia wholeheartedly accepted idea of himility and it formed the Russian spirituality, as we see in examples of saints.

! I'm here. Haha.

I think that some Orthodox Churches developed different virtues (and vices) more explicitly, in line with their pre-existing culture or approach to things. This is not to say that national identity shaped doctrine, but only that some things are more prominent in some places than others, all of which fit into the Orthodox Faith...

The Faith is the same, but it's true that Russian Orthodoxy can have a bit of a different "feel" than Greek Orthodoxy sometimes, etc.

But from an outside view-- the uniformity is amazing, especially considering that there is no such strict organizational bond as with the RCC.

For the OP: the different Churches also have different bishops... i.e. the Greek Orthodox Church has a different area of jurisdiction than the Serbian Orthodox Church, but it is the same faith.

It's like... there are clear differences between the Church of the Galatians and the Church of the Corinthians in the NT, but they are all of the same Church.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Cradle]

Okay, maybe I worded my question not correctly, but can we say there are diffences between, say, spiritual paths of different people -- each has come to the same point, but ways were different.

Sure. Each one of us has been gifted differently, so naturally we tend to give emphasis on different things and have different skills. Throughout our lives we meet saintly people, of the same nationality, living in the same city, and yet different from each other in many senses. See Parable of the Talents .

Is there difference betweew converts and cradle Orthodox?

No. I think the difference only exists in the minds of people or groups of people (from both "sides" - sides? God forbid!) who hold a not very spiritual view and understanding of what we are supposed to be doing in Church, or indeed of what the Church stands for.

Why there can't be difference in spiritual paths of different nations?

Long story . For starters, I have to say that my interpretation of history is that the concept of "nationality" as we know it today is no older than 250 years (yes, I include the greek nationality there). So I can't technically exactly agree with what you say . But I do agree that when a very spiritual person or school of thought appears somewhere, the region is very much influenced, and there is a natural tendency to give a regional emphasis on that particular person or school of thought. Over time, this may create a local tradition somewhat diversified from the rest of Orthodoxy, in the sense of giving emphasis to different things, or if you like in the sense of exploiting different talents for the Glory of God. But I don't see it exactly as a different path. Make sense?

 

[G4m]

Thanks to all so far!

Judging by responses (mostly light hearted) I'm assuming that the different nationalities of the church only import the natural cultural differences. However, there are no differences or disagreements doctrinally?

 

[Marjorie]

Thanks to all so far!

Judging by responses (mostly light hearted) I'm assuming that the different nationalities of the church only import the natural cultural differences. However, there are no differences or disagreements doctrinally?

That's correct.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

Over time, this may create a local tradition somewhat diversified from the rest of Orthodoxy, in the sense of giving emphasis to different things, or if you like in the sense of exploiting different talents for the Glory of God. But I don't see it exactly as a different path. Make sense?

Thanks for excellent response, Petros! Yes, i think I meant different talents, rather than different paths. And it really don't nessesarily connected with nations.

 

[Canmak]

Politics do play into effect here though with each National Church. Just because they are the same church doesn't mean that one will not ex-communicate another one or recognize another church.

Here is an old article but none the less it still show's that the orthodox world is fractured amongst themselves:

Brian J Požun
On 7 January, Orthodox Christians in Central and Eastern Europe and throughout the world celebrated Christmas. Christians of the Russian and Serbian Churches as well as the monks of Mount Athos in Greece celebrate Christmas according to the old Julian calendar. Other Churches, including those of Greece and Bulgaria, have switched to the Gregorian calendar and celebrate the holiday 13 days earlier, on 25 December.
This year's celebrations were muted in many places by conflicts, both open and simmering.
Only one year ago, more than ten thousand flooded Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity in the West Bank to celebrate Christmas, but this year the open conflict between Israelis and Palestinians kept the crowds away.
There were crowds in the Chechen capital of Grozny, however Orthodox Christmas was observed in the city's near-ruined church. Hundreds of people crowded into the church, which was decorated with fir trees from Northern Russia. Fireworks were set off in the evening, and despite the ever-tense atmosphere there, the holiday passed peacefully.
The situation was drastically different elsewhere. In Slovenia, thousands of Orthodox Christians attended Christmas liturgy at Ljubljana's Cathedral of SS Cyril and Methodius. In the Czech Republic, the holiday was also peacefully observed. There are several Orthodox churches in the country, including the Cathedral of SS Cyril and Methodius in Prague and the Cathedral of St Vaclav in Brno.
Estonia: rocky start to the holiday season
The Christmas season in the region got off to a rocky start when the leaders of 15 of the 16 Eastern Orthodox Churches met on 24 December at the headquarters of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew in Istanbul. The only one who did not attend was the Russian Patriarch, Aleksej II.
The Russian Orthodox Church—the world's largest—has been feuding with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the largely-ceremonial head of the Eastern Orthodox Church, throughout the 1990s over jurisdictional claims to the thousands of Orthodox Christians in the former republics of the Soviet Union. The situation has been aggravated in the last several years by events in Estonia.
Hedging a schism between the two Churches that reached its boiling point in 1996, the Moscow Patriarchate reached an agreement with the Ecumenical Patriarch whereby individual parishes in Estonia could choose whether they would answer to the hierarchy of Moscow or Constantinople.
Estonia is home to about 50,000 Orthodox Christians—of these about 30,000 are ethnic Russians.
Moscow viewed a visit by Bartholomew to Estonia in October as a breach of the agreement, and the dispute flared up once again, causing in Aleksej II to boycott the 24 December meeting.
Russia: German leader sees religious revival firsthand
In Moscow, Aleksej II celebrated the Christmas liturgy at the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Interfax's Russian news bureau reported that more than 700,000 attended Christmas services on 6 and 7 January. The large turnout offered further evidence of a religious revival that has been going on for almost a decade within Russia.
The research group Monitoring.ru released statistics late last week showing that 55 percent of Russians believe in God, while only 33 percent do not. Of those who believe, 91 percent said they are Orthodox Christians. The Moscow Times also reported that 62 percent of Russians throughout the country intended to celebrate Christmas. While this figure is down from 67 percent last year, it is still substantially higher than the 57 percent recorded in 1998.
German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder and his wife made a personal visit to the Russian capital to visit Russian President Vladimir Putin for the holiday. Together with their wives, they attended the Christmas services at the Christ the Savior Cathedral. Despite the personal nature of the trip, the two heads of state nevertheless found time to discuss Russian-German relations.
Putin, Schröder and their wives all met with Patriarch Aleksej II at the Holy Trinity-St Serguis Monastery in Sergiev Posad, near Moscow, on Christmas day. Afterwards, the Patriarch told Interfax that the meeting was "very useful," and that Schröder will return to Germany with "a completely new vision of the Russian people, who have revived their spirituality and tradition in this complex time."
Ukraine and Belarus: cultural revival
In Ukraine, numerous traditions dating back to the pagan era, all but extinguished under Communist rule, continue to re-emerge from the shadows. The Kyiv City Council was among the most prominent of those who embraced the old customs, sponsoring a celebration in downtown Kyiv replete with kolyady (caroling) and a vertep (nativity reenactment).
Groups of youths also returned to the old tradition of going door-to-door caroling. The tradition was very strong throughout the old Russian Empire. Beneath the surface, however, all was not well. On 9 January the Council of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv patriarchate) was held in Kyiv. The council reiterated earlier calls for the creation of a unified Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and asked the government and the Ecumenical Patriarch for their assistance.
There are three Orthodox hierarchies in Ukraine. The Moscow Patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church remains strong, though is without the support of the government. The other two, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv patriarchate), and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, enjoy the patronage of the government, which hopes to unite them into a single Ukrainian Orthodox Church for the country.
In Miensk, Christmas Day was made all the more festive by President Aliaksandar Lukašenka bestowing the Award For Spiritual Renewal and the special Award of the President of Belarus on several major figures from the Belarusian cultural world. Awards went to an architect, a monk, a linguist, a playwright, a choreographer, two folk dance troupes and many others. Filaret, Metropolitan of Miensk and Sluzk and head of the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Belarus, participated in the ceremony.
Later that evening, Lukašenka attended the Christmas liturgy conducted by Metropolitan Filaret at the Miensk Cathedral of the Holy Spirit. The Belarusian State Committee on Affairs of Religions and Nationalities reports that more than 80 percent of believers in Belarus intended to celebrate Christmas this year.
Serbia: Spirit of cooperation and renewal
Pavle, Patriarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church, celebrated Christmas liturgy at Belgrade's largest cathedral, St Sava. Many thousands of people crowded churches in Belgrade and across Serbia for holiday services. In tumultuous Southern Serbia, the Christmas celebrations went on peacefully despite the tense situation between Serbs and Albanians in that region.
In his Christmas missive, Patriarch Pavle said that the twentieth century was a time of "tears, destruction and hate," but that the beginning of the new millennium offered a chance for "rebuilding, happiness and love." The Patriarch also stressed the importance of helping one's brothers in hard times.
The Patriarch, however, did not mention any of the other various and complicated problems facing his Church. Among the foremost were those relating to the breakaway Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox Churches, and the disputes within the Serbian Orthodox Church in Italy. These issues came to a head, however, in the affected regions over the Christmas holiday.
Montenegro: A broken home
The Christmas season in Montenegro was marked by a boiling feud. The Church in Montenegro has been split between the Metropolitanate of Montenegro and the Littoral of the Serbian Orthodox Church and the breakaway Montenegrin Autocephalous Church since the latter's creation in 1993. With the recent increase in tensions between Belgrade and Podgorica, the problem has escalated.
In Cetinje, the spiritual center of Montenegro and its medieval capital, the Montenegrin Church has about 30 churches under its jurisdiction. The Serbian Church holds only 11 churches there. The Montenegrin Church has considerably more adherents throughout the region, but the Serbian Church maintains strongholds in the cities, such as Kotor, Nikšić and Herceg-Novi.
For the holiday, the Metropolitanate banned state media, including the major daily Pobjeda and RTV Montenegro, from covering its Christmas observances, accusing them of sympathizing with the cause of the Montenegrin Autocephalous Church. Pobjeda nevertheless did run fairly impartial coverage of both churches.
During the Christmas celebrations, Metropolitan Amfilohije, head of the Metropolitanate of Montenegro and the Littoral, conducted liturgy at a monastery near Cetinje. Yugoslav Prime Minister Zoran Đinđić was among the roughly 1000 in attendance.
Despite several public denouncements of the Montenegrin Church and demands that the government put a stop to its activities, Amfilohije's Christmas missive curiously made no reference to the issue.
The supporters of the Montenegrin Autocephalous Church gathered only a few dozen meters away, at the Court of King Nikola. The service was conducted by Metropolitan Mihajlo, who was joined by Bulgarian Metropolitan Jakov and more than ten thousand believers, demonstrating the numerical superiority of the Montenegrin Church.
In his Christmas missive, Metropolitan Mihajlo addressed the issues directly. "Let us pray for a solution for Montenegro and for the forgiveness of those who desire the elimination of Montenegro and the Montenegrins," he told his followers.
Despite the tension and the close quarters, both of the services, along with the traditional firing of guns afterwards, went off without incident. Hundreds of police officers were sent in to maintain order in the area by the Ministry of the Interior.
The Christmas greeting of Montenegrin President Milo Đukanović addressed the need to heal the region's deep divisions. He called on all politicians and spiritual leaders to lead the healing process.
"Unity, mutual respect and understanding, respect for ethnic differences and human rights opens the way to new freedoms, leads us to achievements for our civilization and are forebearers of the brightest future of Montenegro at the beginning of the new millennium," he stated.
Like last year, Đukanović made official greetings to both the leader of the Serbian Church as well as the Montenegrin one.
Macedonia: at long last, a resolution?
Archbishop Stefan of the disputed Macedonian Orthodox Church celebrated Christmas liturgy in the capital, Skopje, at the Cathedral of St Kliment of Ohrid.
The Serbian Orthodox Church still maintains that clerics in Macedonia are under the authority of the Serbian Patriarch, though there has been a separate Macedonian hierarchy since 1967. Independence was not done according to Orthodox protocol, however, and the Church remains unrecognized by the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
When Macedonia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1992, the movement for an independent Macedonian Orthodox Church got a major shot in the arm, and today the Church is striving to make itself a proper, canonical Orthodox Church independent of the Serbian Patriarchate.
In January 2000, President of the Government of Macedonia, Ljubcho Georgievski, took the major step of asking the Ecumenical Patriarch for his assistance in establishing the Macedonian Orthodox Church on the firm foundation of Church canons. Georgievski also asked that the Macedonian Church be made autocephalous and put under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
The dispute has been simmering for years, but a resolution could be on the horizon. On 16 and 17 January, representatives of the Serbian and Macedonian Churches will meet to discuss the Macedonian claims to independence. This will be the third such meeting, after the previous two, held last year, failed to produce an agreement.
Italy: more problems
In Trieste (Trst), about six thousand Serbs are registered. In reality, there are more than 15,000, making the Adriatic city home to one of the largest Orthodox populations in Western Europe.
Metropolitan Jovan is the spiritual leader of the Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Trieste, Italy, Slovenia and Croatia, however it was unclear if he would serve Christmas liturgy at Trieste's Cathedral of St Spiriodion due to a smouldering conflict among the local Church leadership.
A major conflict between the Church, led by Metropolitan Jovan, and Dušan Šajin, of the Council of Orthodox Groups in Trieste has been brewing for some time. At stake is control of the material wealth of the Council of Orthodox Groups. The Metropolitan excommunicated Šajin and the members of the Council for not respecting the Church's authority.
The fractured Orthodox world
Overall, the holiday season passed peacefully throughout the region. Despite the jurisdictional conflicts tearing apart the Russian and Serbian Orthodox Churches in many countries and regions, there were no major acts of violence reported.
The peaceful atmosphere in Slovenia and the Czech Republic was virtually recreated in such war-torn places as Palestine, Chechnya and Southern Serbia, even if only for a single day.
The New Year and the new millennium offer the Orthodox Church a chance for a fresh start. Nonetheless, a speedy resolution to the jurisdictional issues in Estonia, Ukraine, Montenegro and Macedonia (among many, many others worldwide) is the only chance for the Church to ensure that next Christmas, the holiday will pass in peace and stability, both for the national Churches and their respective nations.
Brian J Požun, 15 January 2001

 

[The Virginian]

Let's get this point out of the way: There should in no wise be a multiplicity of churches here in the United States, O.K!

The sad reality is that many of the parishes are a direct result of communities trying not to become invisible in the great melting pot of America. The problem is that when in the attempt to preserve their national culture in a strange land, they felt that part of that preservation should include the Church, since the Church played such an important role in the culture of their homeland. Many of the "differences" center around just a few things (1) whether or not the parish/jurisdiction is "old" or "new" calendar, (2) which, and how many of the Ecumenical councils are accepted. These thing dictate what Divine Liturgies are used and when, whether or not you incorporate "this" or "that" into your daily life and worship from the culture surrounding you (something which Orthodoxy has done from the very beginning), how long the services are, what type and style of dress is worn by the parishioners, etc, etc, etc. Otherwise, rave on McBeth!

a sinful and unworthy servant

 

[Cradle]

I don't think this thread is about the jurisdictional problems of the United States. The original poster flies aussie colours, while almost half of the posts in the thread come from people who neither come from nor live in the United States. Also, the decisions of Ecumenical Councils are binding for all and it is not a matter of national, "jurisdictional" or personal preference how many and which ones to accept. Churches who reject certain Ecumenical Councils are not currently in communion with the Orthodox Church (pre-Chalchedonians), although we obviously very much hope and pray that the situation will be healed. Ecumenical Councils proclaim dogma, and in that we are united. Let's not confuse our friend who posted the original question!