National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)

Zeek

Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Nov 8, 2010
2,888
217
England
✟11,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sorry, but if I want to read a book I have plenty here at home, I do not have the time or inclination to read huge amounts of cut and paste as this sort of format does not lend itself to the sort of interaction most of us on these Forums are looking for...and more importantly they are somebody elses words, relevant maybe, but all they show is your ability to cut and paste rather than articulate what it is you hope to discuss/argue/persuade.

The one reference to the 'Israel of G-d' is far more likely to be a reference to believing Jews, than an acronym or designate for all Believers.

No one has ever suggested the Jewish people get in to the Kingdom of G-d through some imaginary back door to salvation...that is the heresy of 'Dual Covenantism'...there is only one way for all people, the blood of the Lamb.
 
Upvote 0

deetwang

Follower of Jesus
Mar 8, 2013
374
32
Pennsylvania
✟15,684.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Zazal you are so right. I go on this forum to learn more and to share stuff I know with others and not to just read some long article someone else wrote. I can read books or go online and find in depth articles if that's what I want! I like interacting with people, getting their thoughts and insights. This thread is SHOT.
 
Upvote 0

ORWildcat

Newbie
Feb 12, 2013
35
2
✟15,145.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sorry about the long thread. I will pray that God will turn all of your hearts to the truth. Israel the nation is no better than Iran in Gods eyes. You will eventually find this out whether it's in this life or the next. Not all of Israel is Israel, guys.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ORWildcat

Newbie
Feb 12, 2013
35
2
✟15,145.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The notion that Dispensationalism began with John Nelson Darby (often called simply Darby or JND) is indeed widely reported and almost universally believed, but it is simply not correct. Dispensationalism was indeed taught in the early church. The very oldest commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has been preserved is the last twelve chapters of the fampus work by Irenaeus titled "Against Heresies." (There were older Christian comments on Bible prophecy, but every one of them either was only short, or has been lost.) The very long work by Irenaeus is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188.

Irenaeus taught the essence of dispensationalism in the following statements:

“Therefore the Son of the Father declares [Him] from the beginning, inasmuch as He was with the Father from the beginning, who did also show to the human race prophetic visions, and diversities of gifts, and His own ministrations, and the glory of the Father, in regular order and connection, at the fitting time for the benefit [of mankind]. For where there is a regular succession, there is also fixedness; and where fixedness, there suitability to the period; and where suitability, there also utility. And for this reason did the Word become the dispenser of the paternal grace for the benefit of men, for whom He made such great dispensations, revealing God indeed to men, but presenting man to God, and preserving at the same time the invisibility of the Father, lest man should at any time become a despiser of God, and that he should always possess something towards which he might advance; but, on the other hand, revealing God to men through many dispensations, lest man, failing away from God altogether, should cease to exist.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XX, section 7.)

Before we go on, we need to notice certain key parts of this statement. Irenaeus said that God has “from the beginning” shown “to the human race prophetic visions” “in regular order and connection, at the fitting time,” and in “a regular succession,” with “suitability to the period.” And we particularly need to notice his statement that the Word was “revealing God to men through many dispensations.”

A little further on in the same chapter, Irenaeus clarified this by saying, “The only-begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him];’ and He does Himself also interpret the Word of the Father as being rich and great); not in one figure, nor in one character, did He appear to those seeing Him, but according to the reasons and effects aimed at in His dispensations, as it is written in Daniel.” And further down in the same section, he added, “Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XX, section 11.)

And a few chapters later, Irenaeus further said, “There is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XXVIII, section 2.)

We already noticed in the first quotation we examined that Irenaeus said that the Word was “revealing God to men through many dispensations,” and that he said that this was done “at the fitting time,” in “a regular succession,” with “suitability to the period.” Now we see that he added that the Word “has been always present with the human race,” and saved various individuals “according to the class to which they belong.”

All of this was about past dispensations, but Irenaeus not only spoke of past dispensations, but of future ones as well, saying, “Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature; and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

In this short summary, I have included only a few statements that summarized his thoughts on the matter. But he spoke of these things many times, using the word dispensation, or its plural form dispensations, well over eighty times.He explicitly named a few of these dispensations, namely “the dispensation of the law,” (book III, chapter XI, section 7, and again in book III, chapter XV, section 3) which he also called “the Levitical Dispensation,” (book IV, Title of chapter XVII.) “the Mosaic dispensation,” (book IV, chapter XXXVI, section 2.) and “the legal dispensation.” (book III, chapter X, section 2 and the title of book V, chapter VIII.) He used this last term a third time, contrasting it with “the new dispensation of liberty” in book III, chapter X, section 4. Finally, he referred to “the future dispensation of the human race.” (book III, chapter XXII, section 3.) We should also note that he used the term the “dispensations of God,” eight times, in book I, chapter X, section 1, book I, chapter XVI, section 3, book II, chapter XXV, section 3, book III, chapter XI, section 9, book IV, chapter XX, section 10, book IV, chapter XXI, section 3, book IV, chapter XXIII, section 1, and book IV, chapter XXXIII, section 1.

Irenaeus insisted that his doctrine of the dispensations was what the church had always taught, saying, ““The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents...” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book I, chapter X, section 1.) He said again that “Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behoves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the apostles, and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech. For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XXVI, section 5.)

Nor is this the only dispensational doctrine to be found in these ancient documents. Several more of them are referred to in the following statements by Irenaeus:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

“Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 2)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

In this series of statements, we notice that in the first of them Irenaeus clearly says that the Antichrist “shall remove his kingdom into” [“the earthly Jerusalem”] “and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” In the second he insists that “the temple which is at Jerusalem” is the place “in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ.” And then he quotes Daniel 9:27, “‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away.’” So in the last of these statements he very clearly refers to Daniel’s seventieth week as the week in which the Antichrist will come.

Thus we see in these statements of Irenaeus each of the following concepts:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism, and is incompatible with Covenant Theology.


Hyppolytus, writing about twenty or thirty years after Irenaeus, expanded upon this concept of a future fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3)

Hyppolytus returned to this subject some pages later, writing:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)


We know from the writings of John Nelson Darby that he read the early church fathers, so is it any surprise, then, that when he began to write about how God works in various ways at different times, he should have chosen the word “dispensations” to describe these various periods of time? In so doing, he was not only using the very words of scripture, but the same word used by Irenaeus to describe these same ideas.
Either way, it's a flawed doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Sorry about the long thread. I will pray that God will turn all of your hearts to the truth. Israel the nation is no better than Iran in Gods eyes. You will eventually find this out whether it's in this life or the next. Not all of Israel is Israel, guys.

Yes, not all of Israel is Israel. But all Israel is of Israel.

In the very place where God said this, He gave us two examples to show what that meant. And both of those examples were that the seed that God recognizes is a subset of the genetic seed, not a different group.
 
Upvote 0

Zeek

Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Nov 8, 2010
2,888
217
England
✟11,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sorry about the long thread.

No worries...just appreciate our concerns. :thumbsup:

I will pray that God will turn all of your hearts to the truth.

I think we all need to continually ask G-d for clarity throughout our lives.

Israel the nation is no better than Iran in Gods eyes. You will eventually find this out whether it's in this life or the next. Not all of Israel is Israel, guys.

Israel is unique...the Jewish people were both chosen as a nation and created as a nation, and even when they were dispersed across the whole earth and not in the land of Israel, G-d still considered them a nation before Him and gave assurance through the prophets that they would one day be restored to the land of their Fathers, build up the broken walls, rebuild the cities, plant vineyards and dwell securely.

Everything is once again focused on Israel, and it is my contention that every Believer needs to wake up and smell the hummus and guage their attitude towards Israel. Our history as Christians towards the Jews has been pretty appalling...in these days we have the opportunity to get in line with G-ds heart towards the Jewish people and stand with them through thick and thin...above all wanting them to be blessed in every way and to know Messiah.

Supporting the nation of Israel does not mean we agree with everything they do...but it certainly means we don't side with their enemies or so easily accept as fact the numerous reports that try to constantly de-legitimize demonize and deconstruct Israel...they is a battle in the heavenlies going on, where physical power and force of arms are useless...what counts is seeing the battle is the L-rds and getting behind what He is doing.
 
Upvote 0

deetwang

Follower of Jesus
Mar 8, 2013
374
32
Pennsylvania
✟15,684.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I love Israel, but believe that there are many Jews in the world who don't even know they are Jewish, but God does. I think God will regather the Jews, and agree with the Torah Jews that this military, political Zion is not what God wants. Would God use the first act of terrorism (the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, by Jews wearing Arab clothes) to gather His people? I don't know. I do believe "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds" 2 Cor. 10:4 Certainly God can use any means He chooses.

Home | True Torah Jews
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Israel the nation is no better than Iran in Gods eyes.

Actually, the nation of Israel is far more guilty that Iran, or any other nation that never had the truth of God. That is why it will be put through such intense discipline. But what is coming in Israel is discipline, not judgment. It will not be directed at the destruction of Israel, but at its restoration.


Everything is once again focused on Israel, and it is my contention that every Believer needs to wake up and smell the hummus and guage their attitude towards Israel. Our history as Christians towards the Jews has been pretty appalling...in these days we have the opportunity to get in line with G-ds heart towards the Jewish people and stand with them through thick and thin...above all wanting them to be blessed in every way and to know Messiah.

Supporting the nation of Israel does not mean we agree with everything they do...but it certainly means we don't side with their enemies or so easily accept as fact the numerous reports that try to constantly de-legitimize demonize and deconstruct Israel...they is a battle in the heavenlies going on, where physical power and force of arms are useless...what counts is seeing the battle is the L-rds and getting behind what He is doing.

God has never repealed "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee. (Genesis 12:3)

I love Israel, but believe that there are many Jews in the world who don't even know they are Jewish, but God does. I think God will regather the Jews, and agree with the Torah Jews that this military, political Zion is not what God wants. Would God use the first act of terrorism (the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, by Jews wearing Arab clothes) to gather His people? I don't know. I do believe "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds" 2 Cor. 10:4 Certainly God can use any means He chooses.

Home | True Torah Jews

He has told us the method He will use. He will send down an awful destroyer who will kill two-thirds of all that are in the land. Jerusalem will be "brought down," (Isaiah 29:4) the houses will be rifled and the women ravished. (Zechariah 14:2) But when their power is completely scattered, then, and only then, will He come in power and glory to deliver them. (Daniel 12:7)

Then all Israel will be brought back, as we explicitly read in Isaiah 66:18-21. But as they return, the Lord himself will meet them at the border and purge out all the rebels from among them. (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

Then all the survivors will repent with bitter weeping, And that will make God able to righteously bless them in their land. (Zechariah 12:10-14)

And that is how "all Israel shall be saved." (Romans 11:26)
 
Upvote 0

Zeek

Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Nov 8, 2010
2,888
217
England
✟11,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God has never repealed "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee. (Genesis 12:3)

I believe that is because it aligns itself with G-ds heart towards His people, but unfortuntely this very Scripture has been wrongly used by many well-meaning Christians almost as a talisman or a means of getting G-ds blessing, and often it has been used in conjunction with receiving material goods/money/health, and becomes a manipulative mantra rather than a blessing whereby those that enter into the blessing may know the G-d of Abraham, because it is through His name that they blessed the world.


He has told us the method He will use. He will send down an awful destroyer who will kill two-thirds of all that are in the land. Jerusalem will be "brought down," (Isaiah 29:4) the houses will be rifled and the women ravished. (Zechariah 14:2) But when their power is completely scattered, then, and only then, will He come in power and glory to deliver them. (Daniel 12:7)

Then all Israel will be brought back, as we explicitly read in Isaiah 66:18-21. But as they return, the Lord himself will meet them at the border and purge out all the rebels from among them. (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

Then all the survivors will repent with bitter weeping, And that will make God able to righteously bless them in their land. (Zechariah 12:10-14)

And that is how "all Israel shall be saved." (Romans 11:26)

In the meantime more Jews are coming to know their Messiah than at any time prior to the first few centuries, and many of them now dwell in the land of their forefathers.

I think the final scenario that you have ably summarised is one of the hardest things to understand clearly all the implications, and it is on the basis of this that some people don't even bother witnessing to Jewish people, because the prophecy seems brutally straight-forward.
 
Upvote 0

deetwang

Follower of Jesus
Mar 8, 2013
374
32
Pennsylvania
✟15,684.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good points Zazal! We must witness to the Jews for them to be saved before all the bad stuff happens, as many as we can. For the bible says in Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ORWildcat

Newbie
Feb 12, 2013
35
2
✟15,145.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Good points Zazal! We must witness to the Jews for them to be saved before all the bad stuff happens, as many as we can. For the bible says in Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek"
Yes, it was to the Jew first..God gave Israel the responsibility of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ to the world and they failed. God chose Israel simply because of His grace, not what they had done. Period. Jews are no more important in Gods eyes then black or white or any other race of people. We need to proclaim the gospel of Christ to Blacks just as well as we do to Jews. None is greater in Gods eyes than the other. It is silly to think otherwise. God doesn't show favoritism to any race, period.
 
Upvote 0

deetwang

Follower of Jesus
Mar 8, 2013
374
32
Pennsylvania
✟15,684.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ORwildcat, I must disagree with you where you said "God gave Israel the responsibility of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ to the world and they failed. "

Acts 17:6-7 says "And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus"

They said they were turning the world upside down! Pauls journeys show that he went out of his way to preach the gospel to the world, and many Jews gave their lives for their testimony. If not for Jews, the gospel might not have turned the world upside down!
 
Upvote 0

Zeek

Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Nov 8, 2010
2,888
217
England
✟11,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes, it was to the Jew first..God gave Israel the responsibility of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ to the world and they failed. God chose Israel simply because of His grace, not what they had done. Period.

They failed as a nation, but the remnant Believers were the core and the kick-start to the early Church...thousands of Jews turned to their Messiah and went out and preached the good news to us Gentiles.


Jews are no more important in Gods eyes then black or white or any other race of people. We need to proclaim the gospel of Christ to Blacks just as well as we do to Jews. None is greater in Gods eyes than the other. It is silly to think otherwise. God doesn't show favoritism to any race, period.

I don't think it really has to do with favouritism but is built on relationship, and it is a fact that the nation of Israel was created by G-d Himself and chosen to present YHWH to the world...which has more to do with responsibility than being better than others.

Whem Jesus lived He had twelve main disciples, and of those twelve, three were closer...Peter, James and John. I am sure He didn't love any of the others less, but He invested more time and more intimacy amongst these three...that's kind of how I see Israel.

Someone once said to me 'old friends are the best friends'...it doesn't fully explain the relationship between G-d and Israel, but it hints at something that goes back to His plans and purposes for man-kind and especially His relationship with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...Moses and Joshua, King David and other kings as well as the Prophets....and G-ds sovereign choice to see His Son come from the lineage of David and the tribe of Judah.
 
Upvote 0

deetwang

Follower of Jesus
Mar 8, 2013
374
32
Pennsylvania
✟15,684.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's not about favoritism, or even a relationship, the Jews severed that when they rejected the Messiah: I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"

It is about God's sovereignty, He CHOSE Abraham and He CHOSE Israel to be the nation through which all nations would be blessed! John 4:22 " for salvation is of the Jews"

I think if looking at the apostles, John "the disciple whom Jesus loved", would best represent Israel. We don't read of anything special about John, just that he was beloved of Jesus. That's why we call him "John the beloved".
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Yes, it was to the Jew first..God gave Israel the responsibility of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ to the world and they failed. God chose Israel simply because of His grace, not what they had done. Period.

Actually, God has explicitly told us two reasons other than grace for why He will restore Israel. The first of these is, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29)

The second reason is far more important. For we read:

"As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord GOD: "Go, serve every one of you his idols--and hereafter--if you will not obey me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord GOD, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord GOD.' " (Ezekiel 20:39-44)

So the Lord himself declared their continual wickedness even as He was promising their restoration. And He explicitly declared that it was not for their sakes, but for their fathers sakes and for His own name's sake that He would do this. noting as He said it that when He had done it they would loathe themselves for all the evils that they had committed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zeek

Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Nov 8, 2010
2,888
217
England
✟11,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's not about favoritism, or even a relationship, the Jews severed that when they rejected the Messiah: I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"

It is about God's sovereignty, He CHOSE Abraham and He CHOSE Israel to be the nation through which all nations would be blessed! John 4:22 " for salvation is of the Jews"

I think if looking at the apostles, John "the disciple whom Jesus loved", would best represent Israel. We don't read of anything special about John, just that he was beloved of Jesus. That's why we call him "John the beloved".

Nicely put. :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by deetwang
It's not about favoritism, or even a relationship, the Jews severed that when they rejected the Messiah: I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"

It is about God's sovereignty, He CHOSE Abraham and He CHOSE Israel to be the nation through which all nations would be blessed! John 4:22 " for salvation is of the Jews"

I think if looking at the apostles, John "the disciple whom Jesus loved", would best represent Israel. We don't read of anything special about John, just that he was beloved of Jesus. That's why we call him "John the beloved".
Nicely put. :thumbsup:
I agree! :thumbsup:



.
 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟12,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Actually, God has explicitly told us two reasons other than grace for why He will restore Israel. The first of these is, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29)

The second reason is far more important. For we read:

"As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord GOD: "Go, serve every one of you his idols--and hereafter--if you will not obey me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord GOD, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord GOD.' " (Ezekiel 20:39-44)

So the Lord himself declared their continual wickedness even as He was promising their restoration. And He explicitly declared that it was not for their sakes, but for their fathers sakes and for His own name's sake that He would do this. noting as He said it that when He had done it they would loathe themselves for all the evils that they had committed.
:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

deetwang

Follower of Jesus
Mar 8, 2013
374
32
Pennsylvania
✟15,684.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
PSALM 89

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.


33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.


35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. :holy:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Interplanner

Newbie
Aug 5, 2012
11,882
113
near Olympic National Park
✟12,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The NT speaks of a fulfillment of Israel's promises (those given to the fathers) as in ACts 13, but drifts from what they used to mean to the nation back in the day, to a more global, universal horizon. You won't find that the land as such matters very much in the NT. Esp. in Eph 2-3, where so many technical/covenantal terms are used, yet quite apart from the land as they knew it. For one thing, Paul was speaking to many people in many nations and ethnicities when he wrote that!
 
Upvote 0