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National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by anthony55, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
    The old thread automatically closed is here: "National Israel is cursed forever !"
     
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  2. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    First and Foremost by Election in Christ. Then they are manifested by Faith in Him.
     
  3. nChrist

    nChrist AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith Supporter

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    Psalms 102:12-22 KJV But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations. 13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. 14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof. 15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. 16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. 17 He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. 18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD. 19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; 20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death; 21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; 22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

    Isaiah 9:4-10 KJV For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. 9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.

    Isaiah 66:1-24 KJV Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. 5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. 10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. 12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
     
  4. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    rom 9:8

    That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  5. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    The Land Promise given to Abraham Gen 12 :

    1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    Gen 15:

    15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.


    16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

    17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

    18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

    Now from subsequent scripture we know that the Land that was Promised in Gen 12, was not a literal land, but that a literal land would be given as its type , But the Land promised which Abraham understood, was a City of God, made by God per heb 11:

    8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.


    9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    This is developed further in heb 11:


    13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    Now, back in vs 8-10 - Even while Abraham's feet were standing in the Type [ Physical Land], He yet viewed himself in a strange land, looking for a Heavenly city, hence Abraham, and the other Heirs of the same Promise, Isaac and Jacob understood the Typical material land, to be a type of the True Spiritual Promise. For Faith looks not at the temporal which is seen, but the unseen 2 cor 4:


    18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. [The Eternal Land of Promise]2 Corinthians 5


    1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    7(For we walk by faith, not by sight)

    Yes, all the above here is what Abraham believed to be True from the first promise given him in gen 12:1 of the land.

    The Land promise was not a carnal piece of land in the middle east, but a Heavenly inheritance that encompassed the world:
     
  6. Frogster

    Frogster Galatians is the best!

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    It just so happens, that right now, they are under God's curse of the law, where those in the Abrahmic cov, are in the blessing. read gal 3.;)

    And every last one of them who do not repent, will be, it does not matter where they live. A curse is a curse.

    So lets wield that curse doctrine properly, as far as curse israel, God did..
     
  7. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    frogster:



    And if that is the case, Christ was never made a curse for them ! For No one whom He was made a curse for, can come under the curse of the Law, because His death alone redeems from the curse of the Law.

    gal 3:

    13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    Its impossible for any that Christ died for can ever come under the curse of the Law.
     
  8. nChrist

    nChrist AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith Supporter

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    Malachi 3:11-18 KJV And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. 13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? 14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? 15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered. 16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
     
  9. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    357:



    This is not talking about Abrahams seed accrding to the Flesh, because rom 9:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Here, as usual, this poster is using his interpretation of the meaning of one scripture to (in his mind) negate the express statement of another scripture.

    But the promise of a physical land was not just made to Abraham. It was repeated in Ezekiel.

    "Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
    Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
    Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
    Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
    Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
    Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
    Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
    But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
    For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
    And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it:
    and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:"
    Ezekiel 36:1-10
    Again, we read,
    "Thus saith the Lord GOD;This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
    And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning
    the which I lifted up my hand to give it unto your fathers:
    and this land shall fall unto you for an inheritance. And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
    Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
    And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
    And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
    And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
    The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
    S
    o shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel" Ezekiel 47:13-20

    The words of the second portion above which I have highlighted in boldface are the absolute and final proof that the land which God promised to Abraham was that same physical land which is so very clearly defined in this passage.

    The words of the first portion which I highlighted above are the absolute and final proof that the land under discussion is a physical piece of real estate, and that the promise has most certainly not been fulfilled, for all the house of Israel, even all of it, has never been restored to its land.

    All reasonings about the imagined meanings of various other passages of scripture cannot set aside these explicitly stated promises. God has promised it, and what he has promised, He is able also to perform.

    This absolutely proves that the reasoning used to supposedly negate these promises is faulty.
     
  11. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    None of those Promises can apply to Abrahams seed according to the flesh alone, because they do not belong to God rom 9:


    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
     
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    And none of these promises were made to Abraham's children according to the flesh alone. If you bothered to even read these scriptures, which you have now admitted you have not done, you would see that these promises are made to that portion of Abraham's fleshly seed that will in a future day also be his spiritual seed.
     
  13. nChrist

    nChrist AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith Supporter

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    anthony55,

    Here's a hint for you:

    Big changes are going to happen to Israel during the Tribulation Period. Hosts of people will become saved not just in Israel, but around the world during this horrible time.

    Here's another hint:

    Many will believe because they will see Bible Prophecy being fulfilled before their very eyes.

    Here's another hint:

    Israel was not replaced. The Promises God made to Israel will still be perfectly fulfilled at God's Appointed Time. The Church which is the Body of Christ is NOT Israel. God made separate and distinct Promises to each entity that will all be kept.

    Last Hint:

    God always keeps His Promises. This should always be rule number ONE. When in doubt, go back to rule ONE.

    Isaiah 2:1-5 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. 4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of Jehovah.


    Isaiah 9:2-7 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased their joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as in the day of Midian. 5 For all the armor of the armed man in the tumult, and the garments rolled in blood, shall be for burning, for fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.


    Micah 4:1-3 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
     
  14. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    bible:

    The Fleshly seed of Abraham are not the Children of God rom 9:


    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Abraham had two seeds, His Fleshly seed, or His seed of Promise, His seed of Promise is comprised of both jew and gentile elect, believers in Christ.

    All the Abrahamic Promises are to Abraham's seed Christ gal 3:


    16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Hence, Abraham's fleshly seed has not been promised nothing !



    His Fleshly seed belong to the devil as does all of mankind that does not belong to Christ.
     
  15. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is most absolutely false. It is not what the scriptures say, but your false interpretation of the meaning of what they say.

    It is true that that seed of Abraham which is only according to the flesh has been promised nothing.

    But that portion of seed of Abraham which is according to the flesh which is also the seed of Abraham according to the spirit has been promised that land which has now called Israel, and no false interpretation of the meaning of any other scripture can change that simple and undeniable fact.
     
  17. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    bible:

    Thats what I just said ! A person born of the tribe of benjamin, circumcised, followed the teachings of moses and ect, without being born again, was not a Child of God and entitled to no promise from God except wrath in hell like any other reprobate.
     
  18. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    bible:

    Thats False, the children of abraham according to the spirit have not been promised the land of israel a piece of property in the middle east, but a Heavenly Inheritance.

    Heb 11:


    8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.



    13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Your interpretations of the meanings of these scriptures cannot annul the explicit statements of so very ,very many Old Testament prophecies. When you deny that these prophecies will indeed be fulfilled, you are denying the explicit words of scripture.

    No debate on this is possible. When God has said something will happen, we either believe it or we do not believe it. You choose to deny it. There will be eternal costs for denying the express words of God.
     
  20. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

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    rom 9:


    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
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