Naming of Children

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

What a fun topic! Vasya and I, after only a couple weeks of marriage, are already thinking of baby names.[lol] And being that there are several Ortho-babies on the way in TAW, I thought it would be fun to discuss naming of children.

Here are some questions:

1. Do you think children should be given a Saint's name? Why or why not?

2. If given a Saint's name, should it (ideally) be their first name or a middle name?

3. Do you prefer Old or New Testament bible names? How about post New Testament Saint names? [One thing that Vasya and I have noticed is that Protestants and Protestant converts tend to have a penchant for Old Testament names....]

4. How important is it that a child have an icon of their patron saint in the home? [some Saints' icons are really hard to find, if not impossible] Slightly off topic on this one....

5. Do you think it appropriate for Western converts to choose ethnic Saint's names for their children, such as Photini/Svetlana, Olga, Boris, or Gleb?

 

[RobNJ]

Ummm.. maaybe one that won't have the poor kid laughed out of grade school

 

[Dust and Ashes]

1. Do you think children should be given a Saint's name? Why or why not?

Absolutely! Why? Hey, I figure a child that grows up with a name like Onufrius or Theophilus will have to be pretty tough.

Seriously, I think it would help the child as well as the whole family to be mindful that they are striving to raise a Saint.

2. If given a Saint's name, should it (ideally) be their first name or a middle name?

I think a lot of that depends on the other name and how they go together. Some combinations might sound odd while switching first/middle position will make them sound better.

3. Do you prefer Old or New Testament bible names? How about post New Testament Saint names? [One thing that Vasya and I have noticed is that Protestants and Protestant converts tend to have a penchant for Old Testament names....]

I really don't have a preference here.

4. How important is it that a child have an icon of their patron saint in the home? [some Saints' icons are really hard to find, if not impossible] Slightly off topic on this one....

I think it's very important that they learn who their patron is and develop a relationship early.

5. Do you think it appropriate for Western converts to choose ethnic Saint's names for their children, such as Photini/Svetlana, Olga, Boris, or Gleb?

*See answer to #1*

I don't see anything wrong with it as a middle name or even a first name as long as it's not something that will be persistently difficult for people to pronounce correctly or will get the child picked on.

We have settled on Anna Grace for a girl. Anna after St. Anna, mother of the Theotokos and Grace because it's God's grace that has given her to us.

James Lewis after St. James the Apostle (and Brenda's dad) and Lewis after my dad.

 

[Matrona]

1. I think it's a nice custom, but not totally necessary. It's good if they are baptized a saint's name, but it doesn't necessarily have to be part of their legal name to be a part of their personal identity.

2. I'm of the mind that it's nice to give children a "normal" name and also a "not normal" name. That way when they want to be normal they can be, if they want to feel distinctive they can go by their unusual name. There are some very normal ("John") and very not normal ("Melchizedek"!) names within Orthodoxy. I don't think it matters whether it's the first or middle name.

3. I personally prefer NT and post-NT saint names. JMHO.

4. Again, not totally crucial, but a very good idea.

5. If they do have an "ethnic" name, I think it would be best if it was a middle name or just their chalice name, not their first name. Saddling children with weird names just because one can might serve to make them resent the faith later on.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Saddling children with weird names just because one can might serve to make them resent the faith later on.

Oh, come on, Moxy. You and Dweezil are always giving us a hard time because of your names. The way you guys gripe and bellyache about names, poor little Banjo is gonna develop a complex.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Oh, come on, Moxy. You and Dweezil are always giving us a hard time because of your names. The way you guys gripe and bellyache about names, poor little Banjo is gonna develop a complex.

Not to mention little "Pilot Inspector". (real name - google it.)

LK

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Ummm.. maaybe one that won't have the poor kid laughed out of grade school

I guess little Barsanuphios and Baby Chrysostom are out, then?

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Oh, come on, Moxy. You and Dweezil are always giving us a hard time because of your names. The way you guys gripe and bellyache about names, poor little Banjo is gonna develop a complex.

It's Moses this time-

Have you heard the story of Dweezil's name?

It's been years since I've read this, so I may have some of the details wrong:

Frank Zappa and his wife went to a Catholic hospital to deliver their baby. They already had "Dweezil" picked out as the name, but the nurses didn't believe him or wouldn't let him put that name on the certificate. So Frank rattled off every Catholic Saint name he could think of, and so Dweezil's legal name was something like "Thomas Francis Matthew Pius John Paul Dominic Patrick Mark Luke John Zappa". Later in life, when Dweezil learned of this, he had it legally changed to "Dweezil" which is what his parents had always called him.

Rdr Moses

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

1. Do you think children should be given a Saint's name? Why or why not?

Yes. Because it is the tradition.

2. If given a Saint's name, should it (ideally) be their first name or a middle name?

I don't think it matters much. But I like the story of the priest who disapproved of making up names on account of the possibility that the parents could be naming their child after a demon. So... maybe Saints' names are better, period.

3. Do you prefer Old or New Testament bible names? How about post New Testament Saint names? [One thing that Vasya and I have noticed is that Protestants and Protestant converts tend to have a penchant for Old Testament names....]

I prefer NT and post-NT Saint names, myself. But that's just me.

4. How important is it that a child have an icon of their patron saint in the home? [some Saints' icons are really hard to find, if not impossible] Slightly off topic on this one....

I would say very important. Important enough to plan for. I don't understand how some Orthodox are willing to wait years before getting their child an icon of their patron. This seems to me to mitigate against the formation of a relationship early on between child and Saint.

5. Do you think it appropriate for Western converts to choose ethnic Saint's names for their children, such as Photini/Svetlana, Olga, Boris, or Gleb?

I think it is appropriate. Why not? The Saints are just as much our friends if they had "ethnic" names than if they had "non-ethnic" names like John or Michael.

Though perhaps saving the "strange" name for non-schooling situations might be best. Seraphim John Smith could become S. John Smith, or little Johnny, until adulthood, for example.

---

An additional question, not in the OP...
How many people think the meaning of the name has importance?

-Vasya.

 

[MariaRegina]

I guess little Barsanuphios and Baby Chrysostom are out, then?

Chrystal
Chris

Would those two be alternate names for Chrysostom?

 

[gzt]

names have meaning. it is only very recently that they have ceased to have the same meaning they used to have. it was only a couple generations ago that it was inconceivable that a Christian child - even Protestant - would not have a Christian name. there is still some vestige of this sentiment in our culture - no Christian names their kids Mohammed. but there is nothing revolutionary any more about, say, "hippie" names and such. we have the added problem here that there are many names that are Christian names in the broader cultural application, but which correspond to saints after the Orthodox period, but those can be considered a special case as those who would name a kid something other than a saint's name are generally thinking of something quite beyond Christianity [ie, Mohammad] rather than merely post-Schism [ie, Francis].

so one should at least have a Christian middle name, if it is too hard to have a Christian Christian name.

 

[lmnop9876]

me and all my brothers and sisters (11 of them. ) all have Christian names, and (mostly) Christian middle names. 10 have OT names, and 2 of us (including me) have NT names.
me...
Philip (for St. Philip)
John (this was more for family reasons than anything else)
Leonard (also for family reasons, but still a Christian name)
i definitely think parents should try to give their kids Christian names if at all possible (i.e. tradition doesn't say to name after grandparents or whatever).
Patrick would be a good one.

 

[Prawnik]

GZT: Is there a Saint Dirk? Post-schism?

 

[buzuxi02]

In greek tradition children are named after their close relatives, Usually the firstborn boy and or girl is named after the fathers parents (the childs grandparents). if more children are born there named after the mothers side of the family. Since im greek i dont have to worry since there all saints names already

 

[Michael G]

To avoid the rest of the question for now, due to time, let me focus simply on #5.

5. Do you think it appropriate for Western converts to choose ethnic Saint's names for their children, such as Photini/Svetlana, Olga, Boris, or Gleb?

No, I do not think that a western convert must take the name of an ethnic saint, especially if they have a saints name as well. There are plenty of good western staints as well, and you are no less Orthodox if you have a western Orthodox saints name than if you have an eastern one. The whole ethnicity thing really has very little to do with being Orthodox.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

No, I do not think that a western convert must take the name of an ethnic saint, especially if they have a saints name as well. There are plenty of good western staints as well, and you are no less Orthodox if you have a western Orthodox saints name than if you have an eastern one. The whole ethnicity thing really has very little to do with being Orthodox.

Unfortunately there is a certain degree of resistance to the use of western saints names in some jurisdictions. Certainly, here in England, I have come across decided opposition to using western names in the Greek Church (to the point where my name was turned into Iacobos several times when I took communion!). There is no reason for such actions other than an ethnic bias.

I personally was refused permission to have my son baptised William because it 'isn't a saint's name'. Actually it is, it's just unfortunate that St. Guillermo de Penacorada died in pre-Schism Spain. That despite the fact that St. William wasn't going to be his patron saint and that he was also to be baptised with the name Stefan. I know of a (now Russian) Orthodox priest who had similar problems as a layman when he wanted to baptise his children with English saints names in the Greek church.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about not taking an ethnic saint's name on converting if you have a perfectly good western one. Unfortunately, the reality on the ground is sometimes that this is made impossible. Despite its being a condemned heresy, there is a certain degree of phyletism prevalent in some of the more ethnic immigrant parishes (but by no means all - our daughter was baptised with the name of an Italian pre-Schism saint with absolutely no problems, despite our parish being decidedly ethnic).

James

 

[gzt]

Dirk is a shortened form of Diederich, which is another form of Theodoric.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Unfortunately there is a certain degree of resistance to the use of western saints names in some jurisdictions. Certainly, here in England, I have come across decided opposition to using western names in the Greek Church (to the point where my name was turned into Iacobos several times when I took communion!). There is no reason for such actions other than an ethnic bias.

I personally was refused permission to have my son baptised William because it 'isn't a saint's name'. Actually it is, it's just unfortunate that St. Guillermo de Penacorada died in pre-Schism Spain. That despite the fact that St. William wasn't going to be his patron saint and that he was also to be baptised with the name Stefan. I know of a (now Russian) Orthodox priest who had similar problems as a layman when he wanted to baptise his children with English saints names in the Greek church.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about not taking an ethnic saint's name on converting if you have a perfectly good western one. Unfortunately, the reality on the ground is sometimes that this is made impossible. Despite its being a condemned heresy, there is a certain degree of phyletism prevalent in some of the more ethnic immigrant parishes (but by no means all - our daughter was baptised with the name of an Italian pre-Schism saint with absolutely no problems, despite our parish being decidedly ethnic).

James

Personally, I think the course of wisdom (in order to avoid possible problems in other jurisdictions, etc.) is to give your child the name of a well-established Orthodox Saint of whom icons are readily available.

I imagine this would avoid a lot of future problems.

On the other hand, I don't think all parents are keen on naming their children Nicholas or George, Barbara or Anastasia.

Who ever said that people were wise?

-Vasya.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

On the other hand, I don't think all parents are keen on naming their children Nicholas or George, Barbara or Anastasia.

Judging by the number of people who possess said names in my parish (not to mention all the Helen's, Sophie's, John's, and Mary's) I think it's fair to say there is a large enough population of parents willing to conform to this.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Judging by the number of people who possess said names in my parish (not to mention all the Helen's, Sophie's, John's, and Mary's) I think it's fair to say there is a large enough population of parents willing to conform to this.

lol

Too true. But are these convert parents?