Myths and Caricatures of Protestantism

JM

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A guy who understands church history and offers a irenic apologetics worth considering. (He's a lot nicer than I am.) Gavin seeks to dispel myths and caricatures offered by both Catholic and Orthodox apologists. I'm personally tired of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox using their anecdotal experience with the worst Protestant church they have found to be representative of all Protestantism and the main trust of their position.

Worth watching:




Chan is a fool if he really believes what he has been saying.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 

dzheremi

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Thanks for posting these, JM. This is some really interesting stuff. I haven't watched all of them yet, but I watched the first one and will watch the others later.

One thing, though: the earliest hymn to St. Mary the Theotokos is found in a third century liturgical text of the Coptic (Egyptian) Nativity liturgy, c. 250 AD. I don't remember its more famous Latin title off the top of my head, but today when we sing it in Arabic it is fi zol hamaytiki (beneath your protection). Here it is with modern instrumentation, if you're interested:


I know it might not make much of a difference to most people whether it was mid-3rd century or 4th as he says in the video, since that's not a long span of time, but I think pointing out the presence of this hymn is important for a few other reasons:

(1) To be included in the text of a Nativity/Christmas liturgy suggests that it probably predated the composition of said liturgy by at least some time, since obviously we do not reinvent the wheel anew every Nativity. Really for any prayer to be accepted into the Church like this, where it is publicly proclaimed as part of our corporate worship, it is a sign that what we are looking at is usually very old and quite solid. By contrast, the 'newest' hymns that I am aware of in the Coptic Orthodox tradition in particular are some we borrowed from the Greeks in the 1850s-1860s at a time when we were considering reuniting in Egypt, like the hymn that celebrates the coming of the Holy Spirit Asomen To Kyrio and a few others. (Coincidentally, it was also in the 1850s-1860s when the first organized Protestant missions came to Egypt to convert the Coptic Orthodox people to Christianity, as those missionaries understood it.) The fact that we know the time period to which our newest additions to the hymns can be dated (as well as some other liturgical changes specific to the Coptic Orthodox rites) hopefully shows that we are not afraid to admit when something is new, so it's not really a race to get to whatever point of doctrine or practice 'first' or whatever. Hence, speaking personally, I don't think the "Protestantism is so new" observation is really even much of a criticism, depending on the context. If that's all someone has to say, I would say "Yes, and? You have a problem with people coming to Christ if they did so after you?" But then I am not as irenic as the man in the video. :oops:

(2) Though I'm writing about the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular (which is neither Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) because that's where the earliest evidence of the earliest known Marian hymn is found, it would be a mistake to suggest as the man in the video seems to that this veneration of the Theotokos was not widespread. The hymn in question also appears in the liturgies of the Roman Catholic, Armenian, Eastern Orthodox, and Ambrosian churches (so, a mix of West, East, and 'Orient'), indicating wide acceptance that has transcended subsequent schisms.
 
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JM

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Thanks for posting these, JM. This is some really interesting stuff. I haven't watched all of them yet, but I watched the first one and will watch the others later.

One thing, though: the earliest hymn to St. Mary the Theotokos is found in a third century liturgical text of the Coptic (Egyptian) Nativity liturgy, c. 250 AD. I don't remember its more famous Latin title off the top of my head, but today when we sing it in Arabic it is fi zol hamaytiki (beneath your protection). Here it is with modern instrumentation, if you're interested:


I know it might not make much of a difference to most people whether it was mid-3rd century or 4th as he says in the video, since that's not a long span of time, but I think pointing out the presence of this hymn is important for a few other reasons:

(1) To be included in the text of a Nativity/Christmas liturgy suggests that it probably predated the composition of said liturgy by at least some time, since obviously we do not reinvent the wheel anew every Nativity. Really for any prayer to be accepted into the Church like this, where it is publicly proclaimed as part of our corporate worship, it is a sign that what we are looking at is usually very old and quite solid. By contrast, the 'newest' hymns that I am aware of in the Coptic Orthodox tradition in particular are some we borrowed from the Greeks in the 1850s-1860s at a time when we were considering reuniting in Egypt, like the hymn that celebrates the coming of the Holy Spirit Asomen To Kyrio and a few others. (Coincidentally, it was also in the 1850s-1860s when the first organized Protestant missions came to Egypt to convert the Coptic Orthodox people to Christianity, as those missionaries understood it.) The fact that we know the time period to which our newest additions to the hymns can be dated (as well as some other liturgical changes specific to the Coptic Orthodox rites) hopefully shows that we are not afraid to admit when something is new, so it's not really a race to get to whatever point of doctrine or practice 'first' or whatever. Hence, speaking personally, I don't think the "Protestantism is so new" observation is really even much of a criticism, depending on the context. If that's all someone has to say, I would say "Yes, and? You have a problem with people coming to Christ if they did so after you?" But then I am not as irenic as the man in the video. :oops:

(2) Though I'm writing about the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular (which is neither Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) because that's where the earliest evidence of the earliest known Marian hymn is found, it would be a mistake to suggest as the man in the video seems to that this veneration of the Theotokos was not widespread. The hymn in question also appears in the liturgies of the Roman Catholic, Armenian, Eastern Orthodox, and Ambrosian churches (so, a mix of West, East, and 'Orient'), indicating wide acceptance that has transcended subsequent schisms.
You are in the Semper Forum and forum rules apply.
 
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dzheremi

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I'm sorry?

Did I accidentally post something against the rules or that appeared to be challenging the faith of the community or looking to argue? If so, I really did not mean to do so, and I apologize. I meant that post to be informational, in the sense of "here is some information that is not in the video but is relevant to something that is brought up in the video."

Again, I'm sorry if I somehow violated the forum rules. That was not my intention. I will leave your thread now. Still, thanks for the videos and take care.
 
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JM

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I'm sorry?

Did I accidentally post something against the rules or that appeared to be challenging the faith of the community or looking to argue? If so, I really did not mean to do so, and I apologize. I meant that post to be informational, in the sense of "here is some information that is not in the video but is relevant to something that is brought up in the video."

Again, I'm sorry if I somehow violated the forum rules. That was not my intention. I will leave your thread now. Still, thanks for the videos and take care.
You're good. Just a general reminder.

Keep posting.
 
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JM

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Anyone considering jumping ship to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy should what the Truth Unites videos...all of them. Ortland gives valid reasons from classic, historic Protestantism for staying put or moving to another Protestant body.

For example Reformed Christians believe in the real presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper so if you're considering leaving a Reformed Church for a "traditional" one that really isn't reason enough. Sure, Reformed Christians understanding of the real presence differs from RC and EO teaching but as Dr. Ortland points out the early church was NEVER united in one monolithic understanding of how Christ is really, truly present and those claiming apostolic succession and authority still do not. RC differs from EO. If you want a more liturgy and high church worship try Anglicanism or Lutheranism.

That's all, peace.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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While I don't agree with his position on baptismal regeneration, he makes some valid points. He is also, one of my favorite nonLutheran YouTubers along with Matt Whitman. I appreciate his open inquiry into the Church Father's as well as his charitable approach.

A guy who understands church history and offers a irenic apologetics worth considering. (He's a lot nicer than I am.) Gavin seeks to dispel myths and caricatures offered by both Catholic and Orthodox apologists. I'm personally tired of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox using their anecdotal experience with the worst Protestant church they have found to be representative of all Protestantism and the main trust of their position.

Worth watching:




Chan is a fool if he really believes what he has been saying.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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tampasteve

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Anyone considering jumping ship to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy should what the Truth Unites videos...all of them. Ortland gives valid reasons from classic, historic Protestantism for staying put or moving to another Protestant body.

For example Reformed Christians believe in the real presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper so if you're considering leaving a Reformed Church for a "traditional" one that really isn't reason enough. Sure, Reformed Christians understanding of the real presence differs from RC and EO teaching but as Dr. Ortland points out the early church was NEVER united in one monolithic understanding of how Christ is really, truly present and those claiming apostolic succession and authority still do not. RC differs from EO. If you want a more liturgy and high church worship try Anglicanism or Lutheranism.

That's all, peace.
I agree, this is one of the reasons I have found a church home that really "works" for me in a EPC church. The Real Presence was a deal breaker for me, which is one reason why I remained Lutheran for quite a while.
While I don't agree with his position on baptismal regeneration, he makes some valid points. He is also, one of my favorite nonLutheran YouTubers along with Matt Whitman. I appreciate his open inquiry into the Church Father's as well as his charitable approach.
I second Matt. While I don't agree with everything he says, I really enjoy his passion, testimony, and teaching style.
 
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