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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where do you get that idea that "the day of the Lord" is a 42 month period of time??? That's not what Apostle Paul taught...

    1 Thess 5:2-3
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    KJV

    When the wicked start saying and believing "Peace and safety" has come on earth, then that "sudden destruction" from God will come.

    Paul was teaching that from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord", like Isaiah. In Isaiah 29, God said He will bring that destruction on earth "at an instant suddenly" (Isa.29:5-8).
     
  2. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Evidently its not easy for you because the Harlot is judged and killed off in Rev. ch. 6. There is no Rev. ch. 17 or 18 in Real Time Events per se. In Rev. 16 the Angels says "IT IS DONE" so Where do you get that Rev. 17 is a real time event?

    The Anti-Christ destroys ALL FALSE RELIGION (Harlot) in chapter 6 when he comes to power. He destroys Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, comes after the Jews (Rev. ch. 12) (Judaism) and Kills the Christian Remnant (Rev. 12:17). There is no Rev. 17 as per a REAL TIME EVENT, that should be obvious to all.

    To be someone that basically has no clue about these things you sure act like you do. Its kind of funny to be honest.

    Rev. 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    So BASICALLY you just made that up, nowhere here does it say God is reigning on earth at this time. Of course you do not understand that Revelation is not in Chronological order, so you of course confuse God taking over in Rev. ch. 11 (Even thought that is just a DECREE and God is just announcing his intentions which Jesus will shortly fulfill via the Seventh Vial by defeating the Anti-Christ/Satan). But the fact is this Marriage in Rev. 19 happens BEFORE the Seventh Vial in Rev. chapter 16 and before God announces that he is about to take over in Rev. ch. 11. The book of Revelation is NOT in chronological order. YOUR FIRST MISTAKE !!

    But of course you made the bold statement that God was in control of earth in Rev. 19, even though he clearly is not because Jesus and the Church has to go back and defeat the Anti-Christ at the end of the Chapter !! Rev. ch. 19 last the full Seven Years of the 70th Week.

    You just don't get it, Rev. 19 begins with the Rapture and goes for the FULL SEVEN YEAR PERIOD.

    Before I even read the bottom part, I knew what you were thinking with the SEVENTH TRUMPET. I answered that above. This proves I understand your thinking, and why you are wrong on the subject.

    There is a Rapture, and you are going to find ouy one day, one way or the other. Study harder, pray longer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  3. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Study it and you will see it also. The Wrath of God is the Day of the Lord. It should be obvious Gods Wrath last for 3.5 years. Its NOT ONE DAY !! Good grief man. Babylon also does not fall in ONE HOUR the Kings do not reign with the Beast ONE HOUR !! You have to understand the Metaphoric mentions in Rev. The Day of the Lord is a DAY that Gods Wrath starts on.
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No need to blow up... just because your doctrine on Rev.19 has been proven false:

    Judgement of the great whore:

    Rev 19:1-3
    19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.


    3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    KJV

    The destruction and judgment of the great whore; that's the subject of the beginning of the Rev.19 Chapter! That a view AFTER the tribulation and AFTER Christ's return! The word "judged" is PAST TENSE.

    Rev 19:4-6
    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    KJV

    Let's see, the great whore has been judged and destroyed, and her smoke is rising, and then we're told "for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Can't get any easier than that. That is a FUTURE FORWARD VIEW for AFTER Christ's return and gathering of His Church. It is a Millennial view, because the great whore is destroyed, and that's when Christ's thousand years reign starts.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have studied it, and it is nowhere written that the "day of the Lord" is to last 42 months. Per the OT prophets... and what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.5, linking the "sudden destruction" with it on that day, there is NO WAY to get 42 months out of that.

    What has happened with the doctrine of men you are preaching, is how the pre-trib rapture theorists try to ADD the 42 month reign of the dragon of Rev.13 to the later "day of the Lord" event when Jesus comes "as a thief", which the "day of the Lord" will only occur at the END of the 42 months, and not before.
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    And in the same way you are adding an antichrist to Daniel chapter 9 that does not exist.
    It comes out of thin air.


    Mat 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 


    Dr. Kelly Varner on Daniel chapter 9:



    .
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's where the 42 months period for the end is mentioned:

    Rev 13:4-8
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    KJV


    That 42 months involves the time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught about in Matt.24. It is the 'time, times, and half a time' of the Book of Daniel, and also in Revelation, like here:

    Rev 12:12-17
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    KJV

    The symbolic "woman" represents Christ's Church, because that is who has the Testimony of Jesus Christ. It is now made up of both believing Israelite and Gentile since Christ has come, died on the cross and was raised by The Father.

    That Rev.12 section reveals that "serpent" (also "dragon" of that chapter, and of Rev.13) is coming to attack us, Christ's Church here on earth. That is also the same view in the Rev.13:4-8 verses.

    Now if that Rev.12:17 verse had not said anything about those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ", then we, Christ's Church, could probably consider ourselves left out of that Rev.12 section of prophecy. However, we are mentioned there, and the dragon will be given power over us for a short time at the end of this world, i.e., the 42 months.
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not that difficult to realize the Daniel Scripture is talking about the same one in the Revelation Scripture:

    Dan 7:24-25
    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    KJV

    Rev 13:4-7
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    KJV

    Rev 17:12-13
    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    KJV
     
  9. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I didn't add Armageddon - Jesus did; so if you claim I'm wrong, you're also claiming that Jesus was wrong when he stated:
    "Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Rev 16:15-16)
    Jesus plainly stated that he comes as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon. As you know, rapture adherents claim that they will be raptured when Jesus silently comes as a thief before the tribulation. These two verses prove that Jesus himself stated that he comes after the tribulation since Armageddon takes place at the end of the tribulation. If you disagree with Jesus, that's certainly your prerogative to do so.

    You also ignore simple hermeneutical guidelines such as the Law of First Mention. This principle states that in order to understand a particular word or doctrine, we must find the first place in Scripture that a topic or doctrine is revealed and study that passage. The reasoning is that the Bible’s first mention of a concept is the simplest and clearest presentation; doctrines are then more fully developed on that foundation. Therefore, obviously Jesus' instruction about his coming as a thief is the first mention of this doctrine since he was the one who taught it to his disciples. All of the Apostles' writings in the epistles including Paul's writings concerning the "rapture" must be based upon what Jesus said - not the other way around which is the error you have committed.
     
  10. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    I don't blow up, that is just in your mind. I just tell the facts.

    And she is Judged and DESTROYED in Chapter Six. Well before later chapters. Th Great Whore is ALL FALSE RELIGION, which the Anti-Christ seeks to destroy, else how is he going t be worshiped as the ONLY GOD?

    Revelation is NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER !! These Visions that are seen do not have to be told in a linear fashion either, its very evident you do not understand the old languages and their limitations. I bet you think the Universe is 6000 years old also.

    Rev. 19 is basically the full Seven Year period in Heaven. If you want to say the Marriage comes after the Harlot is killed (It happens in Rev. ch. 6) then that's OK with me, it still comes before chapters 16, 17, 18.
     
  11. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    If you studied it you would see it has to be a long period of time, then again you are off on pretty much everything. I explain the whole book of Revelation in one post.

    Of course the book of Revelation is just one big code book and the Old Testament is where we go to decode it. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. Chapters 1–3 is about the seven churches of Asia-Minor. chapters 4, 5, 7 and 19 shows the Raptured Church in Heaven. Chapters 6, 8, 9, 11, 15 and 16 show the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Chapters 10, 12 13, 14 17 and 18 are visions that fill in the gaps and chapters 20–22 are the after effects. Rev. 19 lasts the full seven years, Rev. 12 and 13 both start in the middle of the seven years as does Rev. chapter 6.

    So Jesus speaks to the Seven Churches, tells them their pluses and minuses. Then John is transported to Heaven on the Day of the Lord. He sees future events that happen after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, thus its the Lords Day or Day of the Lord (DOTL). He sees the Church in Heaven in Rev. ch. 4 and 5, praising God the Father and singing Worthy is the Lamb. Jesus then opens the Sealed Parchment which releases the Anti-Christ who has come to power via peace onto the world as a dictatorial tyrant in chapter 6.

    The First Seal is the Anti-Christ coming forth, he Conquers Jerusalem among many others, thus he becomes the Last Beast which is also the Seventh Head of the Rev. 13 Beast. Daniel 8:25 says he destroys by Peace. He is the Little Horn of both Daniel 7 and 8. Jesus then releases the other three horses, they are all effects the Anti-Christ/BEAST brings to pass. He of course takes Peace from the earth because he brought a fake peace unto the earth, He brings famine and death via the other Seals. (Kills 1/4 of all Mankind)

    The 5th Seal is those Martyrs under the Alter, they are the Christian Remnant of Rev. 12:17, who have been beheaded. They are told to wait until their brothers are killed also, meaning they are not the Tribulation Saints of Rev. ch. 7, those came out of the tribulation of the Church age ( The 2000 years of tribulation of the Church Age as in 2000 > 7).

    The sixth seal is Christ supernaturally casting Satan out of Heaven (untimely figs)and bringing forth a great earthquake. The men of earth are just realizing they are in the Wrath of God or Day of the Lord, They have been in it since the very first seal was broken, but are just now understanding via the darkness and blood moon that the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath is upon them. The Lambs Wrath is the Seven Seals.

    The Seventh Seal is all of the Seven Trumpets. This is the Wrath of the Holy Spirit in chapter 8, because the prayers of the Saints go forth unto the alter of God and the Angel mingles the prayers with fire and casts them back down upon mankind. Thus fire burns a 1/3 of the tress and all of the grasses, 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, 1/3 of the waters are poisoned, 1/3 of the Sea becomes as blood and 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die. 1/3 of the sun is darkened, 1/3 of the moon doesn’t shine 1/3 of the stars don’t give their light. Of course these are warnings, in the Vials these same things happen IN FULL not in thirds.

    Now lets back up to chapter 7 and see what is happening in Heaven at the same time all of this is going on on earth. The 144,000 are being Sealed, this is the Woman (Israel) of Rev. 12 being protected by God for 1260 days, its not 144,000 Jews IMHO, its 12 x 12 meaning is fullness or ALL ISRAEL being Saved as Paul spoke of. The number 12 always means fullness thus 12 x 12 is ALL ISRAEL. Then later in Rev. ch. 7 we see the Church in Heaven, they are the ones that came out of the Great Tribulation or 2000 year Church Age. So Rev. ch. 7 is the Church in Heaven, having already married the Lamb because they have on their White Robes, this is happening at the same time the Seals and Trumpets are happening.

    Now lets jump forward to Rev. ch. 9, this is the 1st and 2nd Woe. The first Woe is the Demonic beings being released from the bottomless pit. Apollyon is their King, he is the Beast of Rev. 17, the 8th King that is over the Seven earthly Kingdoms that come against Israel as BEASTS (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece [5 have fallen] then Rome was the one that WAS at the time John wrote Revelation. And of course the coming Anti-Christ will be the Last Beast when he Conquers Jerusalem (Abomination of Desolation). This Apollyon was locked up after Rome ceased being a Beast almost 2000 years ago, when Israel was dispersed the world over.

    Th 2nd Woe is an Army of God, thus their Breastplates are the exact likeness of the High-priests of Israel, whereas the Breastplates of the Demonic beings were as Iron. These are a 200 Million Angelic Army of God, not Humans on horses. They bring Plagues of God, so says the scripture in Rev. 9:20, the wicked were killed BY PLAGUES, this is an Army of God, not 200 million men on Horses.

    Chapter 10 is a Mystery that only John seems to know, he was forbidden from revealing the secrets of the Seven Thunders.

    Chapter 11 is the the Two Witnesses witnessing to all man-kind, they preached unto Israel BEFORE the Anti-Christ conquered them, thus Israel repented and accepted the Messiah Jesus before the Day of the Lord just as Malachi 4:5–6 said they would do. Also Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1 says Israel accepts Christ Jesus as their Messiah before Jesus returns in Zechariah chapter 14:3–4. As a matter of fact Zechariah 14:1–2 is Israel being Conquered by the Anti-Christ (Rev. 6) and verses 3 and 4 is Jesus returning to the Mt. of Olives and Conquering the Anti-Christ or BEAST, then casting him into hell fire (Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20). There is a Great Earthquake here just like in the Sixth Seal, they get progressively worse, the Seal earthquake is bad, the Trumpet earthquake is even worse and the Vial Earthquake is Jesus Christ returning, he lands on the Mt. of Olives and a Great Earthquake hits.

    Apollyon kills the Two Witnesses after the 2nd Woe and just before the 3rd Woe, thus we know the Two-Witnesses 1260 days do not line up exactly with the Beasts 42 Month (1260 days) time frame. They show up before the Beast because they die before the Beast dies, and that is what Malachi 4:5–6 says, I will send you Elijah to turn the Fathers hearts back before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord……So Israel repents before the First Seal is opened or before the DOTL. The Beast from the bottomless pit (Apollyon) kills them. He is the 8th King of Rev. ch. 17. It is announced that God is taking over, of course that does not happen in full until Jesus returns and destroys the Beast and all his minions at Armageddon. Then in Rev. ch 16 it is announced, IT IS DONE !!

    Rev. ch. 12 is a Prophecy, all prophecies are about the future, thus Rev. 12:1–5 is a CODE and not a Prophecy, its sets up the real prophecy, Rev. 12:6–17. John could not call Rome a Beast and neither could he speak of Israel being protected by God since Rome had just sacked Jerusalem/Israel, it could have been seen by the Romans as sedition/treason, thus John/Jesus ENCODED the meaning of the Prophecy, just as he encoded much of Revelation with the Old Testament. Out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation, 289 verses contains Old Testament Phraseology.

    Thus the Woman who is clothed with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars is encoded phraseology, she has a male-child and the Dragon tries to kill the male-child, but the child is warned and thus ascends to the right hand of God in the throne room of God. What does this mean and how do we decode it?

    Genesis 37 gives us the CODE WE NEED !!

    Genesis 37:9 And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun (Jacob) and the moon (Rachel) and the eleven stars (Joseph’s 11 Brothers) made obeisance to me.

    So the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars is their whole Family which = Israel. Thus we now know the Woman in Rev. 12 refers to the Woman (Israel), thus her male child is Jesus, thus the Red Dragon tried to kill him via King Herod, of course, who decreed that all male children under 2 years of age should be put to death. But we know that an Angel warned Mary and Joseph who fled to Egypt for a few years. Then Jesus was Crucified and ascended the right hand of God. NOW ON TO THE REAL PROPHECY !!

    Rev. 12:6–17, the Dragon, Satan is cast out of Heaven (Micheal stands up Daniel 12:1–2) he chases the Woman (Israel) via the Anti-Christ/Beast, who FLEES unto the Wilderness where God or Eagles Wings protects her for 1260 days. Satan via his Beast is angry that he can not get at her and turns his anger towards the REMNANT of the Church (Remnant means a small part of something that is left) who keeps the Commandments of Jesus Christ. These are the Martyrs under the Alter at the 5th Seal. These are the Beheaded who are judged in Rev. 20:4, they rule on earth with Christ for the 1000 year reign. Chapter 12 is happening during chapter 6 and of course lasts the full 1260 Days as per God protecting Israel.

    Rev. ch. 13 is happening during Rev. ch. 6 also of course, it is the Anti-Christ becoming the Beast, when he Conquers Jerusalem/Israel he becomes the BEAST for 42 Months. Remember folks, chapters 10, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18 are Visions with intermingled information about all of the other chapters. They are not real time events per se. Think about Rev. chapters 17 and 18……In Rev. 16 we see Armageddon ends it all, the Angel says IT IS DONE, yet we still have a Revelation chapters 17 and 18, HINT, these both happened starting in Rev. ch 6, one ends in Rev. ch 6 (Rev. 17) while the other is just Babylon or the World Governments receiving all of the Plagues of the 21 Judgments (Seals/Trumpets and Vials). So Rev. 18 starts in Rev. ch. 6 and ends in Rev. ch. 16. IT IS DONE !!

    Back to Rev. ch. 13, the Beast arises out of the Sea, and we see the Lion, Leopard and Bear as a part of this Seven Headed Beast. That is meant as a clue, we are to understand these are the exact same Beasts of Daniel ch. 7, but whereas Daniel looked forward from his time on (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the Little Horn) John and Jesus show us all of the Beasts by looking BACKWARDS, we see there are Seven Beasts, not the Five that Daniel showed us, counting the Little Horn/MAN that is cast into hell in Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. The Seven Beasts then have to be found by looking at the history of Israel since we know a Beast is one who Conquers, Enslaves or Rules Israel via Daniel ch. 7. So who are the other two Beasts? Well that is not a very hard thing to understand, we know Israel was enslaved by Egypt, and Assyria took away the 10 Tribes of Israel. It also matches Rev. ch. 17 where it says 5 Have Fallen….ONE IS…..and one is YET TO COME. We know that five have fallen before Rome becomes a Beast so lets write it down.

    Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece had all FALLEN by the time John wrote the book of Revelation. Rome WAS at the time John wrote Revelation the Beast over Israel (Rome was Daniels 4th Beast but actually the 6th Beast according to Jesus Christ in the book of Revelation). The Coming Anti-Christ when he Conquers Jerusalem will be the Seventh Beast or the 7th Head of the Rev. 13 Beast. He has 10 Horns with him which have 10 Crowns because this is the MAN BEAST that is being spoken of. In Rev. ch. 12 the Dragon with Seven Heads has only Seven Crowns because he is over the Kingdoms that come against Israel, the BEAST of Rev. chapter 13 is OVER TEN KINGS thus their crowns are shown in Rev. 13.

    All of this is happening at the Midway point or in Rev. ch. 6. The Beast arises out of the Sea meaning he Conquers Jerusalem/Israel and becomes the LAST GENTILE BEAST over Israel. He will rule for exactly 42 Months, the exact time that Israel is protected in the Wilderness by God. The False Prophet arises out of the Land which means he is a Jew, he will set up a graven Image of the MAN/BEAST and demand all peoples to worship it or die, thus all Religions are destroyed. Islam will be destroyed, along with Hinduism, Buddhism, he will chase the Jews into the Wilderness, kill the ones who do not flee and come after the Christian Remnant. He will thus Destroy the Great Harlot of Rev. ch 17 at this same time, she is ALL FALSE RELIGION of all time, she is Judged in Revelation ch. 6, Rev. ch 17 is just a VISION, its not a REAL TIME EVENT. Remember in Rev. ch. 16 the Angel says IT IS DONE !! Its over by that time.

    The Great Harlot is destroyed by the Kings (Rev. 17:16) but it actually happens in Rev. ch. 6, when he comes to power he wipes out all Religions, this is only logical, he knows to be worshiped as God, the ONLY GOD, he must wipe out Islam at the very start, he will not wait, he knows they will never serve or submit unto him as God over their Allah. He thus kills off the Harlot when he first comes to power in Revelation chapter 6 at the VERY FIRST SEAL !!

    Rev. ch. 14 is the vision of the Harvest. There are two Harvests there it seems, it seems Jesus is on the Cloud for one Harvest (Rev. 14:14), just like the Rapture says, he meets the Church in the Air. We then go to Heaven where we are seen in Rev. chapters 4, 5, 7 and 19. The second harvest is of course the Armageddon Battle where the blood is said to be up to the Horses Bridles. This is where God places the Grapes (Wicked) into the Wine-press of God’s Wrath. (See Rev. 16:19). Thus Babylon is Fallen, is fallen. Babylon is World Governance under Satan.

    In Rev. ch. 14, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, in Rev. 16:19 it says…THE SAME THING BASICALLY.

    Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts(Earthquake when Jesus lands on Mt. Zion) , and the cities of the nations fell (Babylon or the Nations that gather against God at Armageddon FALL to Jesus/God): great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    So we see that God sees the Armageddon Event as Babylon being destroyed, just like in Rev. ch. 14, where the Wine-press smashes the Wicked via his Wrath, we see the same thing in Rev. 16:19 at the very last vial.

    Back to Rev. ch. 15, this is only the Angels in Heaven readying the Seven Last Plagues (Vials of God).

    Rev. ch. 16 is the last Seven Vials that God is going to pour out on the wickedness of all mankind. Every man that took the Mark of the Beast will receive grievous sores, the seas become blood and every creature in all the seas die, all the waters are poisoned, the sun scorches mankind, then there is total Darkness that falls over all of Babylon (The Beasts Kingdom).

    Lastly, in Vial number Six, three lying spirits are sent forth from the Anti-Christ, False Prophet and Satan and they are shown as Frogs. They lie to mankind and get them to come forth and battle against God/Israel at Armageddon. The Kings of the East come forth, they are Arab Nations not China, the 200 Million are in Rev. ch. 9, not Rev. ch. 16, they are an Angelic Army, these are the Kings of the East or Arab Nations who hate Israel and of course the European Union where the Beast Arises from, amongst other nations that join in. Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives and with just one command destroys the Beast and his Minions via the Holy Spirit (Without Hand or by the Sword of his Mouth/Holy Spirit).

    Rev. ch. 17 is the Great Harlot who rides the Beast. She is ALL FALSE RELIGION, she is destroyed in Rev. ch. 6 when the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast he has no use for her anymore because he desires to be Worshiped as THE ONLY GOD !! The Beast she rides on is the False Governance of Satan over all the World which is called BABYLON by God. Rev.16:19 shows us God sees the nations that come against God and Israel at Armageddon as BABYLON. Thus the Kings in league with the Beast kill off the Harlot. In Rev. 17:18 we are given a clue……Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    What did John see in his vision? Well the Vision was only three verses, Revelation 17:3–6, the first 2 verses in the chapter were not the Vision and verse 7 was the Angel telling John he was going to explain who/what the Woman and the Beast she rode on was, verses 8–18 is the Angel explaining these things. So the vision was John seeing the Woman/Harlot and that she had four descriptors on her Head. Verses 3–6 was the fullness of the Vision John saw !!

    Rev. 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, (COMMA) Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

    So its never Mystery Babylon, its MYSTERY (Comma) then Babylon the Great, the word Mystery only means Secret by Gods Silence, so after the Angel tells us the Secret it is no longer a Mystery unto us. Thus its BABYLON THE GREAT, that is the Great City in Rev. 17:18. God sees Babylon the Great as standing for World Governance thus Babylon was the head of Gold of the Statue that will be smashed to smithereens at the end of time by Jesus the Rock cut out of the Mountain !!

    Rev. ch. 18 is only Babylon (The World) being hit with the 21 Judgments (Seals, Trumpets and Vials of Gods Wrath). That is why God tells his people to come out of her so you will not suffer in her punishments. So God asks Israel to go into hiding in Petra (Wilderness). God also says in Rev. 18 that Babylon is become a habitation of devils, well that is true, Satan has been cast out of Heaven along with all of his demons (Rev. ch. 12) and the Demonic entities have all been released from the bottomless pit in Rev. ch. 9. So the World is inhabited by many Demons at this time.

    Rev.18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

    Well of course, with all of these plagues/Seals/Trumpets and Vials hitting the earth the Commerce will be destroyed. Ships being destroyed, Sea Creatures all dying (think Shrimp/Fish/Lobster) trees burning, the Waters poisoned etc. etc. of course the Commerce will be destroyed. But Babylon is NOT ONE CITY, it is all the World, all Governance under Satan’s auspices. Thus Babylon is being hit with all manner of Plagues and the very LAST VIAL (Seventh Vial) is Jesus landing on the Mt. of Olives and destroying the Anti-Christ and all his wicked minions. He then casts him into hell along with the False Prophet.

    Rev. 19 covers the full Seven Years of Jacobs Troubles or the 70th Week. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, we marry the Lamb in Heaven, then we come back on White Horses with Jesus Christ and defeat the Anti-Christ/Beast and his minions. We then feast on the Marriage Supper (Carnage) this is why Matthew 24:28 says you will know where the Eagles will be gathered at the Carcass. It means the Church will be at Armageddon feasting (METAPHORICALLY) on the Wicked. We are called fowls in Rev. ch. 19. (Eagles are fowls)

    Rev. ch. 20:4 is where we the Bride judges the Beheaded, the Martyrs of the Tribulation, and thus we must also Judge the Anti-Christ and False Prophet because they are cast into hell fire and all men must receive Judgment. This is the end of the First Resurrection, its the resurrection of those under Christ Jesus’ blood. The Second Resurrection will be those dead in Satan or the Wicked Tares, they will be judged along with Satan who is bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years, then cast into hell where the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are in hell awaiting him. (Rev. 20:10).

    The rest of Revelation is just telling us about the hereafter, the New Earth and the New Jerusalem coming down.
     
  12. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    John wrote that to describe what he saw. We understand where Jesus said that at. Rev. 12 is described in Genesis 37:9. Rev. 17 is described in Daniel chapter 5, go look at it. The Cup with the Harlot drinking out of it is basically what happened the Belshazzar (handwriting on the wall)when he had a great feast and allowed the Silver and Gold Chalices they took from the Temple of God to be drank out of. The defeat of Satan after the 1000 years in the pit is shown as Gog and Magog. Stop taking Revelation as 100 percent correct. Its a bunch of Old and New Testament imagery.

    John used other Scriptures etc. to describe Revelation. You getting hung up on that verse is very telling, you do not understand Revelation is a BIG CODE BOOK.

    That was John warning that Jesus was going to come back like a thief in the night and destroy the wicked. He used passages throughout Revelation from elsewhere. Its seems to have confused you somewhat.
     
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    I dont read your eschatology in my Holy Bible :)
     
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    You express the battle of armageddon, then Jesus coming as a thief?

    The battle is at the end of the tribulation, that will see Jesus return to defeat the armies in the "Second Advent" fire in judgment. 2 Peter 3:10-13, Revelation 20:9 "As A Thief" the end of this earth takes place, as its dissolved by the Lords fire.

    You state in error this coming as a thief is at the beginning of the tribulation, not so :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But you are not staying with the facts, because the timing in those Rev.19:1-9 verses are all future Millennial timing, because that is when the marriage supper with Jesus occurs, after the tribulation, not before.

    Rev.6 is another... view of the 7 signs Jesus gave us in His Olivet Discourse. This is why the last few verses of the 6th Seal are about the event of Jesus' coming with the day of The Lord events, His being revealed to all coming from Heaven to pour out His cup of wrath upon the wicked on earth.

    You instead have been taught to think that the trumpets and vials can't happen until after all the seals have happened. The pseudo-Christ who comes first, will appear on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial -- the 666 of Scripture.

    That the seals, trumpets, and vials are not all in chronological order is what I've been saying here. And no, I do not believe God's creation is only 6,000 years old.

    But with all this above, you left the subject of Rev.19 we were discussing. So you haven't offered anything about the actual timing of Rev.19 that fits that Scripture, but only offered a doctrine of men instead, i.e., the insertion of a pre-trib rapture doctrine of men in Rev.19 with the marriage of The Lamb.

    No it's not. I've already shown you the Rev.19:1-9 verses is for AFTER the great whore has been destroyed, her smoke rising, and with GOD reigning. That's Millennial timing, NOT tribulation timing!

    The Marriage Supper is AFTER the tribulation...

    Luke 22:15-16
    15 And He said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

    16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

    KJV

    That's not going to happen until Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. That's the Message of Isaiah 25:5-9 also.
     
  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't pay attention to your irrelevant postings just to try and appear like you know what you're talking about when you don't. Regurgitating a doctrine of men perfectly like the pre-tribulational rapture theory is not a meritorious endeavor.

    The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine you are preaching is not Scriptural. It wrongly tries to add a pre-trib rapture idea to that Rev.19 chapter we were discussing. And I showed you how that is impossible because of what is 'actually' written there in Rev.19:1-9 about the great whore already having been judged and her burning.
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You know what's really funny folks about the doctrines of those on the pre-tribulational rapture theory?

    They used to... teach very strongly that our Lord Jesus will come "as a thief in the night" on the "day of the Lord" timing, like Apostle Paul taught. They'd attach all kinds of 'be ready' to fly away rhetoric with it. You'd often hear them just say things like, "Jesus comes as a thief, brother! Be ready!"

    But now... their doctrinists want to say that "day of the Lord" happens for 7 YEARS (tribulation)!!! That is actually the same thing as saying that our Lord Jesus CONTINUALLY IS COMING AS A THIEF FOR SEVEN YEARS!
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you know what John 10:22 is about?

    Did you know that the Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah?

    The "little horn" is found below and his desecration of the temple in 167 BC.

    His forces attacked the city during 167 BC, killing thousands of Jews. He had a statue set up in the sanctuary and had a pig slaughtered in the altar. For a period of time he forbid the Jews to offer sacrifices in the temple.



    .................................................
    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

    John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

    .
     
  19. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    What is funniest is the people that post trib camp will boast that they have the only right answer , which is nothing more than an assumption, when asked directly as in laser specific exactly in what manner does Christ describe how he will protect his family through the worst calamity the earth has ever seen caused by Christ Himself to test those who reject Him
    Scripture tells us outright that those who obey will not be her through it , but post tribbers insist we will be while the very best scripture they use to defend their folly is 100% assumption and as such they believe if they state 20 verses that are not applied correctly they further their assumption thinking that the more verses used inappropriately no one will notice , one scripture defeats them and in all their false wisdom they don't even know what it is ..
    now That's funny


     
  20. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Do you believe in a future human "Man Of Sin" as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4?
     
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