My wife has turned atheist!

[Ana the Ist]

Well I wouldn't want to allow you to think that miracles don't exist in reality because then you are saying that I was out of touch with reality when I saw her leg grow. That isn't true because several people witnessed the same miracle. 32 years isn't long either. It might seem long to you but it's not even a blip on the scale of a universe like ours, and the closer you get to the end of the next 32 years, the more you will realize this and appreciate it. Tell me though, for anyone to suddenly begin praying and believing in Jesus, why do you not consider that a miracle? Is it something that you believe you are capable of doing without the power of God?

I don't deny Mohammad's claim of truth, I deny that the angel who visited him was truthful. The reason for this is because I believe that all of God's people have been honest, and when you compare what the Qu'ran says to what the bible says, there is a serious inconsistency.

As for Buddhism being truth, I can't hold a proper opinion about that because it has never made much sense to me. Most of what Buddhist's say are generally just fancy words that sound grandeur, and because of this it portrays itself as wisdom. It simply doesn't impress me.


I doubt you could compete with The Holy Spirit, but go ahead if you want to try. At the very least we would reach a stalemate, but potentially we stand to learn something new together.

To answer your first question, no I don't think that believing in Jesus and praying is a miracle, it does not require and act of god. On this very forum you will find those who pray and believe, but are sad or upset they have never experienced god. It happens.
To answer your last question, the church butted heads with science many centuries before evolution. THe church believed that the earth was the center of THe universe. We have clearly learned it is not. Hence those who stood with the bible and Jesus against their better reason were shown to be wrong.

 

[oi_antz]

To answer your first question, no I don't think that believing in Jesus and praying is a miracle, it does not require and act of god. On this very forum you will find those who pray and believe, but are sad or upset they have never experienced god. It happens.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about how God interacts with us, and this becomes apparent when believers claim they don't experience God. The problem here is not that God doesn't interact with them, but that they are expecting Him to behave in a way that He has chosen not to do. Anyhow, you have ducked my question. I asked whether you would be capable of praying and believing without the power of God. See the thing is that although there are many Christians who yearn to see God face to face, they will still acknowledge that their relationship with God has resulted from some action on God's part. The bible teaches that faith is a gift from God, the fact that some Christians aren't well educated does not nullify that truth, it only makes for a confused Christian and a confused observer of that Christian.

To answer your last question, the church butted heads with science many centuries before evolution. THe church believed that the earth was the center of THe universe. We have clearly learned it is not. Hence those who stood with the bible and Jesus against their better reason were shown to be wrong.

I don't think you fully understand what Jesus meant when He made that statement, because you have made an illogical argument. Jesus said "those who are on the side of truth listen to me". What you seem to be reading instead is something like "those who teach about me are on the side of truth". There's a huge difference between those two statements. Here, I'll quote a few different translations so you can get a better understanding of what Jesus meant. Read carefully:

KJV:
Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

NIV:
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.

NLT:
All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true.

Greek Interlinear Translation:
THE one-BEING OUT OF-THE TRUTH IS-HEARING OF-ME THE SOUND

This means that those who love the truth can recognize that Jesus is right. There are those who hate the truth however who don't recognize that Jesus is right. Jesus emphasised this in another verse while speaking to skeptical Jews:

42 Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me!

Now, you have made the mistake of believing that a church has been a spokesperson for Jesus, when in fact that claim is disputed by many believers, and about all they can agree on is that the gospels are accurate. So best to use that for your basis of dispute, and see whether you still feel that Jesus has made a false claim.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about how God interacts with us, and this becomes apparent when believers claim they don't experience God. The problem here is not that God doesn't interact with them, but that they are expecting Him to behave in a way that He has chosen not to do. Anyhow, you have ducked my question. I asked whether you would be capable of praying and believing without the power of God. See the thing is that although there are many Christians who yearn to see God face to face, they will still acknowledge that their relationship with God has resulted from some action on God's part. The bible teaches that faith is a gift from God, the fact that some Christians aren't well educated does not nullify that truth, it only makes for a confused Christian and a confused observer of that Christian.

I don't think you fully understand what Jesus meant when He made that statement, because you have made an illogical argument. Jesus said "those who are on the side of truth listen to me". What you seem to be reading instead is something like "those who teach about me are on the side of truth". There's a huge difference between those two statements. Here, I'll quote a few different translations so you can get a better understanding of what Jesus meant. Read carefully:

KJV:
Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

NIV:
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.

NLT:
All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true.

Greek Interlinear Translation:
THE one-BEING OUT OF-THE TRUTH IS-HEARING OF-ME THE SOUND

This means that those who love the truth can recognize that Jesus is right. There are those who hate the truth however who don't recognize that Jesus is right. Jesus emphasised this in another verse while speaking to skeptical Jews:

Now, you have made the mistake of believing that a church has been a spokesperson for Jesus, when in fact that claim is disputed by many believers, and about all they can agree on is that the gospels are accurate. So best to use that for your basis of dispute, and see whether you still feel that Jesus has made a false claim.

Sorry if it seemed like I was "ducking" your question. APparently I Was mistaken by what you meant, maybe I still am. In your first question, does the "you" refer directly to me? Or does it refer to a more general "everyone"
If the question is directed solely at myself, it would take a significant act of god to get me to believe in Jesus and prayer. I can elaborate if you like.

It's easy to look back through history and point at those Christians who have done wrong or believed wrongly and claim they weren't really Christian, in their time I have to posit that they indeed were.
REgardless, my answer does not change though I can see now you won't accept any proof. All I have is my own love of truth, and disbelief in Jesus, to claim that statement a falsehood. Yet my word is as good as any man's, even Jesus, and in some places better than most men's.

 

[oi_antz]

Sorry if it seemed like I was "ducking" your question. APparently I Was mistaken by what you meant, maybe I still am. In your first question, does the "you" refer directly to me? Or does it refer to a more general "everyone"
If the question is directed solely at myself, it would take a significant act of god to get me to believe in Jesus and prayer. I can elaborate if you like.

Yes I did mean you specifically. I agree with you that faith does require an act of God, and that is ongoing. If God were not actively encouraging me then my faith would burn out, because you are right, it does happen. Notice too that without an act of our own, faith is likewise impossible.

It's easy to look back through history and point at those Christians who have done wrong or believed wrongly and claim they weren't really Christian, in their time I have to posit that they indeed were.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you can't seem to understand the semantic of what Jesus says, and that proves to be a major problem for Him communicating to you. As I said to you "those who love the truth can recognize that what I say is true" is not equivalent to "those who teach about me love the truth". There is a major difference in that some people have such huge pride that when they are faced with new information that conflicts a statement they have made, they can't eat their words and accept that they were wrong. You are facing that very problem right now. Whose fault is it that you don't understand Jesus properly? I get the impression that you don't want to invest much effort into the pursuit of truth, and it is a fact that Jesus invested as much effort as is humanly possible. Does that not strike you as unfair?

REgardless, my answer does not change though I can see now you won't accept any proof. All I have is my own love of truth, and disbelief in Jesus, to claim that statement a falsehood. Yet my word is as good as any man's, even Jesus, and in some places better than most men's.

To claim a statement to be false without understanding what the statement means is not the love of truth. I guess if you don't want to invest the effort to understanding what Jesus says then you won't want to invest the effort to understanding what I say either. I'm not sure where to go with you because it's pointless to flog a dead horse. All I can say is that from our short discussion is that I hope you will wise up for your wife's sake, because she obviously adores you enough to trust you. Jesus said this:

Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

It is apparent that you don't realize the gravity of going against Jesus. I encourage you to think carefully and seriously about that because I don't believe it is necessary, and it doesn't seem particularly wise.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes I did mean you specifically. I agree with you that faith does require an act of God, and that is ongoing. If God were not actively encouraging me then my faith would burn out, because you are right, it does happen. Notice too that without an act of our own, faith is likewise impossible.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you can't seem to understand the semantic of what Jesus says, and that proves to be a major problem for Him communicating to you. As I said to you "those who love the truth can recognize that what I say is true" is not equivalent to "those who teach about me love the truth". There is a major difference in that some people have such huge pride that when they are faced with new information that conflicts a statement they have made, they can't eat their words and accept that they were wrong. You are facing that very problem right now. Whose fault is it that you don't understand Jesus properly? I get the impression that you don't want to invest much effort into the pursuit of truth, and it is a fact that Jesus invested as much effort as is humanly possible. Does that not strike you as unfair?

To claim a statement to be false without understanding what the statement means is not the love of truth. I guess if you don't want to invest the effort to understanding what Jesus says then you won't want to invest the effort to understanding what I say either. I'm not sure where to go with you because it's pointless to flog a dead horse. All I can say is that from our short discussion is that I hope you will wise up for your wife's sake, because she obviously adores you enough to trust you. Jesus said this:

Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

It is apparent that you don't realize the gravity of going against Jesus. I encourage you to think carefully and seriously about that because I don't believe it is necessary, and it doesn't seem particularly wise.

Sigh, perhaps you don't understand me as well as you'd like. My answer to your first question was for me alone. It would take an act of god because I require proof, or at least evidence. I don't think this applies to everyone as I've seen many on this forum that claim to believe and have faith and yet admit to never "experiencing" god. THerefore I don't see it being as necessary for everyone as it is for me.

FUrthermore, I do understand what you said about Jesus and loving the truth. It's a statement that's almost impossible to disqualify because you never hear people going around saying "I love the truth" and so I cannot ask if they believe love Jesus. If you are really interested in finding this out, why don't you try a little experiment? Go to any atheist forum and ask "who here loves the truth?" THen out of those who say they do ask them, "who among you also believes Jesus spoke the truth"?

I've never tried this myself, but I'm willing to bet you'll find many who claim love for the truth but don't believe Jesus. If you believe them, and I doubt you would, you must admit that Jesus spoke falsely when he said, "those who love the truth can recognize what I say is true". After all, why would so many who claim to love truth lie?
Have you considered that I actually have read the bible, studied much of what is said about it, and still don't believe its true? I cannot speak for everyone but for myself I can say that I love the truth and don't believe that what Jesus said was true. Even if that claim is only held by me (I'm sure it isn't) then that would make Jesus a liar. (staff edit)

(staff edit)

To say I don't understand what the statement meant is fallacy, I've gone off of the very definition you gave me. If I misunderstood then surely you did too.(staff edit)

(staff edit)

 

[oi_antz]

Hi everyone, I got home from visiting family for Easter and there was a reply in my email that Ana had typed, but when I went to reply it had been removed. I have PM'd Ana about this and he is now reluctant to continue discussion in public because he feels like he is being picked on. He even suspected that I had reported it to the moderator. The moderator did not even say to Ana which rule he had broken, I just wonder if the person who did report it would mind mentioning which rule was broken so we can continue discussion being aware of that. Thanks, even a PM would do.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This thread is closed.