My thoughts are out of wack

[TamaraLynne]

In the book of Genesis I feel there is so much to see and in layers.

I step lightly around most of it and it other parts it is like a lion roaring to understand and then the roar subsides as I realize understanding apparently is not for this time...usually because I have missing ingrediants that I need to know first in order to understand other things.

But I have others bring up things I never thought of before and I get so excited for the new understanding

One of the things brought up was that the tree of life in the garden represents Jesus.
Now this is where my thoughts get out of wack...if the tree represents Jesus...who does the other tree represent? Is it Satan? Then I wonder because of how much attention satan gets..why is satan so special? Then I start to wonder because of Gods past love for Satan...was satan not just an angel...was he Gods son(family) at one time? I know throughout the bible two sons are mentioned alot...

Please don't throw stones at me...because these thoughts have entered in and I want to expose the thoughts...if I'm way way way off don't get mad because they are just thoughts...I would like these thoughts gone if they are not correct thoughts because these thoughts could seriously get in my way of understanding if they are incorrect.

 

[Achilles6129]

In the book of Genesis I feel there is so much to see and in layers.

I step lightly around most of it and it other parts it is like a lion roaring to understand and then the roar subsides as I realize understanding apparently is not for this time...usually because I have missing ingrediants that I need to know first in order to understand other things.

But I have others bring up things I never thought of before and I get so excited for the new understanding

One of the things brought up was that the tree of life in the garden represents Jesus.
Now this is where my thoughts get out of wack...if the tree represents Jesus...who does the other tree represent? Is it Satan? Then I wonder because of how much attention satan gets..why is satan so special? Then I start to wonder because of Gods past love for Satan...was satan not just an angel...was he Gods son(family) at one time? I know throughout the bible two sons are mentioned alot...

Please don't throw stones at me...because these thoughts have entered in and I want to expose the thoughts...if I'm way way way off don't get mad because they are just thoughts...I would like these thoughts gone if they are not correct thoughts because these thoughts could seriously get in my way of understanding if they are incorrect.

I suppose it is a possible connection that the tree of life represents Christ and the other tree represents Satan. Satan gets attention simply because he is the highest-ranking individual in rebellion against God. I also don't understand why anyone would throw stones or you and get mad :

"19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [i]immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:19-21 (NASB)

 

[TamaraLynne]

I suppose it is a possible connection that the tree of life represents Christ and the other tree represents Satan. Satan gets attention simply because he is the highest-ranking individual in rebellion against God. I also don't understand why anyone would throw stones or you and get mad :

"19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [i]immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:19-21 (NASB)

Thank you...but yes I'm waiting for a emoticon smiley that throws stones pop up on this thread...because the thought that repels me is that satan would have been a part of God like family..like Jesus is. Sometimes...sometimes the story of the prodigal son pops up and I wonder if satan is the wayward son....it usually pops into my head when others ask why satan is allowed to exist...

yep I want these thoughts gone because they are getting in my way I believe.

need to know more of something that will get rid of these thoughts.

 

[Achilles6129]

Thank you...but yes I'm waiting for a emoticon smiley that throws stones pop up on this thread...because the thought that repels me is that satan would have been a part of God like family..like Jesus is. Sometimes...sometimes the story of the prodigal son pops up and I wonder if satan is the wayward son....it usually pops into my head when others ask why satan is allowed to exist...

yep I want these thoughts gone because they are getting in my way I believe.

need to know more of something that will get rid of these thoughts.

Satan wasn't originally the way he is now, there's no question about that. Satan is not the wayward son in the prodigal son parable The prodigal son was saved - Satan is not (see Rev. 20:10).

 

[LaSpino3]

Tamara, great questions, great subject! I have always had a love for Genesis and have said, if a person can understand to its fullest Gen.1:1 to Gen.1:6, they will have their finger on the pulse of God's creation and the reasoning behind it.

Concerning the tree of life, it does not represent Christ, but what he has to offer, eternal life that is in him. Imagine you had all that God has to offer, and all that He offers is all that you have ever desired. Wow! Eye has not seen, nor ear heard what He has in store for us.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil: All that Adam had to know was he was not to eat or touch this one tree. Let's call it a test of trust and faith on Adam's part.

What I have always found interesting concerning this tree was the fact that Evil is mentioned to Adam who only knew God and that which was good.

If I were Adam, I would have asked God, "What do you mean by evil?" Well God knew because the evil He spoke of had already come down from heaven, and lay in wait to put a black mark on God's creation. But Adam was in darkness concerning the presence of this fallen angel. Satan’s goal was to destroy the only thing that was made in the image and likeness of God himself, mankind!

It’s sort of like the test Job went through, to test his faith and love for God against the wiles of the Devil. To show that God’s way is the only way; every other way leads to destruction.

If you have any questions on these 6 verses I will give you my thoughts on the subject

Phil LaSpino

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

In the book of Genesis I feel there is so much to see and in layers.

I step lightly around most of it and it other parts it is like a lion roaring to understand and then the roar subsides as I realize understanding apparently is not for this time...usually because I have missing ingrediants that I need to know first in order to understand other things.

But I have others bring up things I never thought of before and I get so excited for the new understanding

One of the things brought up was that the tree of life in the garden represents Jesus.
Now this is where my thoughts get out of wack...if the tree represents Jesus...who does the other tree represent? Is it Satan? Then I wonder because of how much attention satan gets..why is satan so special?

The Lord does use symbolisms of His Christ in many ways. Because the Lords Word is His Christ "anointed". So to see the Tree of Life as the Word of Life would be correct. As God's Son is also that manna come down from heaven, even the Bread of Life, as Gods Word is also shown symbolically as Living waters.

So there are many symbolisms and names given to express the Lords Christ, which is the very Word of God made flesh in Jesus; which is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

But the tree of knowledge is not Satan, Satan is symbolized by the serpent in the garden who deceived both Eve and Adam.

The tree of knowledge (to know good from evil) was not evil itself, but rather the transgression of Gods commandment not to eat of it lest thy die was.

We know the tree of knowledge to know good from evil was not sin itself, or evil, because God also knows good from evil.

But God knew the day Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they would die. Why? Because the day they transgressed the commandment of God not to eat from it sin would then enter, and as a result of sin then also came death. (as the Lord warned)

Satan knowing this used the tree of knowledge to deceive Adam and Eve and said "surely you will not die after eating it, but shall be like God" which was the lie and deception Adam and Eve fell for.

So understanding the tree of knowledge to know good from evil was not sin, or evil itself; then what did the tree represent?

I believe the tree of knowledge represented the LAW. As it is written, by the law came the knowledge of sin.

The Tree of knowledge, to know good from evil, was given as a sign of the natural law.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

When we ate from the tree of the law(knowledge to know good from evil) we then were made aware of our sins, and then our eyes were opened and we saw our own nakedness; just like Adam and Eve did after eating.

What we once thought was good for us, became death to us, just as the Lord said; the day you eat of it, surely you shall die.

Romans 6:23;"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It was not the fruit of the tree of knowledge that was death to us, but rather it was the sinful nature that worked in our old fleshy minded man.

Romans 7:5;"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

So even though we once thought the natural law was life to us, we being evil by nature were decieved, and the natural law(the knowledge to know good from evil) became death to us by reason of our own sinful nature.

Romans 7:11;"For sin taking occassion by the commandment, decieved me, and by it slew me."

Just as Satan took the commandment of God and used it as leverage to deceive Adam and Eve into believeing "they would not die" after disobeying Gods commandment.

And as far as Satan once being good, this is not true. Because Jesus said he was a murderer and a liar even from the very beginning.

 

[TamaraLynne]

The Lord does use symbolisms of His Christ in many ways. Because the Lords Word is His Christ "anointed". So to see the Tree of Life as the Word of Life would be correct. As God's Son is also that manna come down from heaven, even the Bread of Life, as Gods Word is also shown symbolically as Living waters.

So there are many symbolisms and names given to express the Lords Christ, which is the very Word of God made flesh in Jesus; which is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

But the tree of knowledge is not Satan, Satan is symbolized by the serpent in the garden who deceived both Eve and Adam.

The tree of knowledge (to know good from evil) was not evil itself, but rather the transgression of Gods commandment not to eat of it lest thy die was.

We know the tree of knowledge to know good from evil was not sin itself, or evil, because God also knows good from evil.

But God knew the day Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they would die. Why? Because the day they transgressed the commandment of God not to eat from it sin would then enter, and as a result of sin then also came death. (as the Lord warned)

Satan knowing this used the tree of knowledge to deceive Adam and Eve and said "surely you will not die after eating it, but shall be like God" which was the lie and deception Adam and Eve fell for.

So understanding the tree of knowledge to know good from evil was not sin, or evil itself; then what did the tree represent?

I believe the tree of knowledge represented the LAW. As it is written, by the law came the knowledge of sin.

The Tree of knowledge, to know good from evil, was given as a sign of the natural law.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

When we ate from the tree of the law(knowledge to know good from evil) we then were made aware of our sins, and then our eyes were opened and we saw our own nakedness; just like Adam and Eve did after eating.

What we once thought was good for us, became death to us, just as the Lord said; the day you eat of it, surely you shall die.

Romans 6:23;"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It was not the fruit of the tree of knowledge that was death to us, but rather it was the sinful nature that worked in our old fleshy minded man.

Romans 7:5;"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

So even though we once thought the natural law was life to us, we being evil by nature were decieved, and the natural law(the knowledge to know good from evil) became death to us by reason of our own sinful nature.

Romans 7:11;"For sin taking occassion by the commandment, decieved me, and by it slew me."

Just as Satan took the commandment of God and used it as leverage to deceive Adam and Eve into believeing "they would not die" after disobeying Gods commandment.

And as far as Satan once being good, this is not true. Because Jesus said he was a murderer and a liar even from the very beginning.

Thank you...I believe I agreed with everything you said...well it made sense until the part where you mentioned we were easily decieved because our flesh nature is evil by nature..I thought our flesh did not become currupt until the eating of the fruit....unless the very dust of the earth itself was currupt when adam was formed...was the world already evil by nature? The very dust of it?

 

[TamaraLynne]

Well when I say evil I mean does what we are formed from is the very ground a symbolism of the evil that we think of when we say "the world"

 

[TamaraLynne]

Okay my thoughts did not go down very well once again even I reread what I just wrote and said "huh?"

 

[TamaraLynne]

Tamara, great questions, great subject! I have always had a love for Genesis and have said, if a person can understand to its fullest Gen.1:1 to Gen.1:6, they will have their finger on the pulse of God's creation and the reasoning behind it.

Concerning the tree of life, it does not represent Christ, but what he has to offer, eternal life that is in him. Imagine you had all that God has to offer, and all that He offers is all that you have ever desired. Wow! Eye has not seen, nor ear heard what He has in store for us.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil: All that Adam had to know was he was not to eat or touch this one tree. Let's call it a test of trust and faith on Adam's part.

What I have always found interesting concerning this tree was the fact that Evil is mentioned to Adam who only knew God and that which was good.

If I were Adam, I would have asked God, "What do you mean by evil?" Well God knew because the evil He spoke of had already come down from heaven, and lay in wait to put a black mark on God's creation. But Adam was in darkness concerning the presence of this fallen angel. Satan’s goal was to destroy the only thing that was made in the image and likeness of God himself, mankind!

It’s sort of like the test Job went through, to test his faith and love for God against the wiles of the Devil. To show that God’s way is the only way; every other way leads to destruction.

If you have any questions on these 6 verses I will give you my thoughts on the subject

Phil LaSpino

I would love to hear your thoughts...with the book of Genesis I would love to hear what others have found or question they have had...i just want things to add up and make sense...I've started a thread in apologetics about Cain and Lamech ...about my thoughts that are outside the box....I'm not happy about others saying Lamech was bragging...it does not add up...but hey if others actually posted something about it that shows he was bragging and it makes sense then I won't have questions rolling androlling around. I like the book of Genesis but I'm all over the place with no structured way of study.

 

[LaSpino3]

Tamara, ask your question!

Phil

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Thank you...I believe I agreed with everything you said...well it made sense until the part where you mentioned we were easily decieved because our flesh nature is evil by nature..I thought our flesh did not become currupt until the eating of the fruit....unless the very dust of the earth itself was currupt when adam was formed...was the world already evil by nature? The very dust of it?

What I meant was, because of Adams original sin...that sin nature was passed along to all men who are firstborn of the flesh.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Well when I say evil I mean does what we are formed from is the very ground a symbolism of the evil that we think of when we say "the world"

The ground is not evil, neither is Gods creation. The evil that is now working in the firstborn man and also in the world is the "spirit of that Wicked" which is of the Devil.

As the two seeds (serpents seed vs. the womans seed) are spiritual seeds.

 

[LaSpino3]

One of the great misconception concerning evil is to rid yourselves of the idea that God created Adam perfect. He did not! Adam was like the rest of the creation, he was called, "good," and not perfect.

The word, "good" when used in Gen.1, is the Heb. word, "tobe." it means in the text of Gen.1, and in the context of all the verses of Gen.1, fair, pleasant, better, best, agreeable, fertile, a beautiful place; but not perfect.

Phil LaSpino

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

People can make of that what they will, but I'll stick with the Lords choice of words concerning the matter.

 

[LaSpino3]

Inspirit, you wrote, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

Phil replies, "The conversation was about the Hebrew word "good" as it is used in the context of Gen.1. Hebrew is "tobe."

You’re speaking about another Hebrew word which is, tamiym meaning perfect as in complete, upright, whole, sound in conduct, blameless. You’re making the most common mistake by using the Hebrew word as we would use it in our modern day English Language. You can't do that!

You quoted Ez.28:15, God is speaking concerning Lucifer, "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

First of all, no created being, man or angel, or anointed Cherub is perfect as God is perfect. The above means he had all the requirements of his CREATED nature. He was fully informed as to his duties to God, and complete in music, beauty, and wisdom.

“UNTIL,” is a word of time. There came a time when this Cherub showed his imperfections

"Until iniquity was found in him." Thus he was not perfect in the sense you have interpreted the word.

Phil

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

You can't do that!

You quoted Ez.28:15, God is speaking concerning Lucifer, "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

I can do that, and just did.

God was speaking to the man (Adam) that was in the garden of Eden Phil. (Ezek 28:13) What man (Adam) was in the garden Phil?

Satan is not a man,(Adam) neither was he ever perfect in the day he was created because Jesus said Himself that the Devil was a liar even from the very beginning. (never was Satan perfect)

 

[LaSpino3]

Inspirit, do you have any idea what your taking about, because I don't. Your saying Adam was a cherub. The context of, and broader sense of these verses is speaking about the throne of God in heaven, this is where Cherub's were created, and where they serve God.

I'm not going to get into this conversation of nonsense with you.

Phil

 

[Noxot]

Well when I say evil I mean does what we are formed from is the very ground a symbolism of the evil that we think of when we say "the world"

yeah but we are originally made from Gods love and so that which was added onto perfection will burn away. we are beings of freedom but when we came to a place like this it started to limit us and more and more chains started to chain us down. freedom is the substance of God, it is higher than even free will, because to will anything less than God is already to fall away from God to some degree and since God is freedom we lose that freedom. goodness is freedom and evil is lack of freedom. freedom is love and God is love. when beauty gets marred instead of staring at her beloved she becomes deformed. God is beauty and so too are we made in His image. when she, the soul, forgets her beloved, who is God, she has already been lost in a darkness that only her beloved can save her from. she has become a shadow and not the reality.

so when freedom makes choices it already puts her in chains, unless that choice is to be one thing with God, who is what she is made from. if she is one thing with God then she will not be corrupted, she will not be mortal, but immortal. anything less than God turns you from immortal into mortal, from life to death. but we all know how the story ends, life swallows up death because greater is He that is inside of us than he who is in the world. He said he will never leave us nor forsake us, but if we are blind it appears he has forsaken us and we often will react to that in evil ways such as trying to obtain salvation by works or maybe we just want to eat, drink, and be marry for tomorrow we shall die.

true freedom is formlessness and that is why it is said that God created us out of nothing. however true freedom also descends and makes good shapes but if we forget God then we might make ugly things that could look better. we are beings that are both formless and beings that have form. even God Himself took on the form of a man so that we can see who we belong to since we became blind. because compared to God, we are eve and he is adam, and we know Christ is the second adam. and we are the eve, and we were deceived but adam/Christ was not deceived and he overcame the world for us. and so if we are with Jesus who then can be against us? are we not one being with him who loves us? for he gives us his life and therefore we live. because His life is also the freedom we thought we lost. God does not change, and we are His children.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Inspirit, do you have any idea what your taking about, because I don't. Your saying Adam was a cherub. The context of, and broader sense of these verses is speaking about the throne of God in heaven, this is where Cherub's were created, and where they serve God.

I'm not going to get into this conversation of nonsense with you.

Phil

I know what I'm talking about, but that doesn't mean others will. The Lord is speaking of spiritual things here Phil, not just the man, but also the spirit that now works in all of mankind. Covering Cherub is the spirit of covering (covers up the truth) that is at work in the world, and all of mankind who are not born again of Gods Spirit.

That same spirit entered into Adam (man) when sin entered and Adam then tried to cover up his transgression.

That's the connection Phil. Satan is the Father of the lie, which is the same spirit (cherub) that tries to cast a covering over the Truth.

2 different Fathers, 2 different seeds, 2 manner of people, but both are spiritual. One is of a lie and death, the other is of the Truth and Life.