my take on abortion:

SPF

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You are always free to make that decision as a male or female and what you do with your body. Unless you want others to make that decision for you?
But we aren't. What if it brings me happiness to use my body as a weapon and kill other people whom I don't like. Am I free to do that? No.

As good Americans, we all agree we have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Yet, each of these rights can be, and are limited. If I'm a kleptomaniac and my pursuit of happiness depends upon me being able to indiscriminately steal from stores, then my pursuit of happiness is limited because I am not allowed to do that. If I do it anyway, then my right to liberty will be temporarily suspended as I will be placed in jail. Sometimes a crime can be so bad that our rights to liberty and even life may be permanently taken away.

So in the case of abortion, it is incorrect to assert that it is a women's rights issue. You're begging the question by stating that a woman is free to do what she wants with her body. Because can she? Is it possible that pregnancy would be one of those times where the right to pursuit of happiness is limited? The answer to that question is based entirely upon the nature of the life inside the womb. If there exists inside a woman's womb a human being created in the image of God that possesses inherent moral worth and value, then just as it is morally wrong for you to kill me, it would be morally wrong for someone to kill them.

Every single one us agree that it would be wrong for a mother to kill her 3 year old daughter because she was just too much work for her. The same would be true for the unborn child inside a womb if that child possessed inherent moral worth and value.

Abortion is not a women's rights issue. It's a human life value issue.
 
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SkyWriting

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But we aren't. What if it brings me happiness to use my body as a weapon and kill other people whom I don't like. Am I free to do that? No.As good Americans, we all agree we have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Do you wish others to decide that for you? Your answer says
you refuse to allow others to decide for you.
 
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RaymondG

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But we aren't. What if it brings me happiness to use my body as a weapon and kill other people whom I don't like. Am I free to do that? No.

Is it a good analogy to liken the termination of a pregnancy because of rape or life threatening injury to the mother to the random killing of other people's children for the happiness of the murderer? I think many women would disagree.

Every single one us agree that it would be wrong for a mother to kill her 3 year old daughter because she was just too much work for her. The same would be true for the unborn child inside a womb if that child possessed inherent moral worth and value.

Everyone does not agree with this anology....and they are not wrong if they dont. I, for one, place great value in the breath of life and the spirit of God. I think it very possible that the spirit enters the body during the first breathe and leaves with the last. I also place great value in the power and omniscience of God. No human can say that a spirit will not come into this world when God intends for the spirit to come. God's will Will always be done.
 
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SkyWriting

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Every single one us agree that it would be wrong for a mother to kill her 3 year old daughter because she was just too much work for her. The same would be true for the unborn child inside a womb if that child possessed inherent moral worth and value.

The example I gave was a 12 yo who was pregnant by her stepfather and the mother chose to have the 12 yo bring the baby to term and she then had to raise both kids becasue her boyfriend was now in jail. It's one of the stories my wife tells me from school. I do not decide for that woman what she decides for her pregnant child.
 
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SkyWriting

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That freedom only may be there for everyone; it is not that you need to want others to make a decision for you - they may make the decision for you without you wanting them to.

My point is, that decision should take into consideration the state of the world, whether in bringing another into the world (and encouraging them to do so, in that you ensure good adoptions) one is increasing the goodness of the world, or decreasing it. Whether it is an overall win for society, or an overall loss.

By "society" of course you mean "household". No factors are considered important outide of the immediate family unit of one or two.
 
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SkyWriting

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And Bible believers would say, that would be at the time of conception.

God states -- I knew you while you were in your mothers womb.

Note -- I have been to abortion recovery classes and all attending wish they would not have done what they did to their little ones. There is forgiveness for the ones that (truly) Repent.

If I'm 99 years old and happen to get my wife pregnant -- we (will be) having a baby.

MB

That's completely up to her, not you. It will depend
on her personal health outlook. She will consider
the likelihood of both dying and that effect on you
left alone as well.

My mother had to choose between her own health
and that of her husbands. We are happy she lived
but she suffers from the choice.
 
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SPF

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Everyone does not agree with this anology
Can you show me someone somewhere who does not think it would be morally wrong for the mother of a 3 year old daughter to kill her because she was too much work?

The example I gave was a 12 yo who was pregnant by her stepfather and the mother chose to have the 12 yo bring the baby to term and she then had to raise both kids becasue her boyfriend was now in jail. It's one of the stories my wife tells me from school. I do not decide for that woman what she decides for her pregnant child.
Yes, you are very good at creating emotionally difficult stories. But the one person you ignore in all these stories is the unborn child. So my question to you would be very simple - do you believe that the unborn child is a human being, created in the image of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value? If your answer is no, then I understand completely why you support abortion. If your answer is yes, then you need to start considering the life of the unborn child in all your 0.005% of the population stories.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes, you are very good at creating emotionally difficult stories. But the one person you ignore in all these stories is the unborn child. So my question to you would be very simple - do you believe that the unborn child is a human being, created in the image of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value? If your answer is no, then I understand completely why you support abortion. If your answer is yes, then you need to start considering the life of the unborn child in all your 0.005% of the population stories.

No, it was just one of the true stories. Reality is far darker than that one.
In my own experience there are more.
 
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SPF

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So my question to you would be very simple - do you believe that the unborn child is a human being, created in the image of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value? If your answer is no, then I understand completely why you support abortion. If your answer is yes, then you need to start considering the life of the unborn child in all your 0.005% of the population stories.
 
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RaymondG

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Can you show me someone somewhere who does not think it would be morally wrong for the mother of a 3 year old daughter to kill her because she was too much work?

Maybe I wasnt clear. I stated that not everyone believes that killing a 3 year old child, is the same stopping a pregnancy 2 weeks after conception. Seems to be a ploy to bring one to a particular side of the fence by adding an extreme. I dont think it is a good comparison.
 
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SkyWriting

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So my question to you would be very simple - do you believe that the unborn child is a human being, created in the image of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value?

I think I answered you this already.
The unborn child has no higher value than any one who is born or has already died.
 
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RaymondG

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do you believe that the unborn child is a human being, created in the image of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value? If your answer is no, then I understand completely why you support abortion.

see? here is another extreme....another ploy to push to one side.

God gave us all free will.........So does that mean that he completely supports every decision every human makes? If not....Why would it mean that one supports abortion, just because they believe others should decide on their own without being pressured by ones own personal beliefs?
 
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SPF

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I think I answered you this already.
The unborn child has no higher value than any one who is born or has already died.
I'm not talking about higher value. The only reason that I do not support abortion is because I believe that all humans are created in the image of God. I believe that part of being created in the image of God means that we all possess inherent moral worth and value. I do not make a distinction in moral worth and value between human beings based upon their age.

Therefore, I can't support abortion for the same reasons that I can't support parents killing already born children because they're an inconvenience.

That's why I asked you how you view the unborn child. Because clearly you support abortion and think that it's perfectly moral for a mother to kill her unborn child because her economical or environmental state of life is not preferred.

So based upon what you've said, I've never once seen you say anything about the moral value of the life of the unborn child. That tells me that you don't believe the unborn child is morally valuable.

You've never applied your "do unto others" motto to the unborn child. Which again tells me you neglect and don't consider the unborn child worth anything in itself.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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The only reason that I do not support abortion is because I believe that all humans are created in the image of God.
I hope you don't think I'm too picky - I don't think this is true, I don't think you really want to say this.

First, "only reason."
I suspect if you try a bit you will easily come up with a number of reasons.
TO "NOT SUPPORT ABORTION" probably is to think it's murder, to the "pro-lifer."

Believing, "that all humans are created in the image of God," can be seen to really have nothing to do with the abortion issue.
BOTH SIDES probably mostly, (i.e. most of them), believe that.

What you say seems to imply you would support abortion IF you did not believe all humans are created in the image of God?

Surely you wouldn't much support abortion if you thought there should be a much greater world population (yes I am sure there are those who think that as ridiculous as it is)? Would you?

Anyway, if you figured out abortion is not murder, could not be murder; if you figured out the truth, that is, that there is never any human being in any womb, you would see that whatever "created in the image of God" means, it has no meaning for the subject of abortion, has no relevance to it's question.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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there is never any human being in any womb,

Most of the people on Earth do not agree with that comment.

Although (at the time) they did not care, even most of the ones that have had abortions know that they had their child killed.

Ones that believe in God must Repent.

Ones that don't, can't.

M-Bob
 
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SPF

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Mountainmanbob, not only are you right that most of the people on Earth do not agree with Doug's position, I actually would go beyond that and say that I don't think a SINGLE other person on Earth agrees with Doug's position.

He literally has rewritten the science books, denied factual science, and created his own definitions of terms to come to his conclusions. I honestly am at a loss for how anyone can do that with integrity.
 
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RaymondG

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Mountainmanbob, not only are you right that most of the people on Earth do not agree with Doug's position, I actually would go beyond that and say that I don't think a SINGLE other person on Earth agrees with Doug's position.

He literally has rewritten the science books, denied factual science, and created his own definitions of terms to come to his conclusions. I honestly am at a loss for how anyone can do that with integrity.
I agree with his position. So there is at least a single person.

The point i agree with is that the image of God is not flesh and blood. God create male and female in His image. After that, he created Adam from the dust of the ground. Flesh is the dust, not the image of God. The flesh comes from the ground and will return....the image....the spirit returns to the Father.
 
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SPF

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Raymond, you agree with Douglas' position? Here is Douglas' position:

1) A human being does not exist at any time inside the womb
2) The life growing inside the womb is of the same moral worth and value as cancer inside a human body
3) It would be completely moral for a woman to abort her baby at any point during her pregnancy so long as the baby has not left the womb yet. Meaning, even if she was a week past her due date, she could abort.

You believe that Raymond? Then what do you make of Luke 1:41, 44 - And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

How can you believe that there is not a human being inside the womb? John literally leaped for joy inside his mother's womb. You agree with Douglas that John, inside the womb was not a human being?

For the majority of the world, the abortion debate is NOT over when a human being comes into existence. That's basically settled science. The abortion debate is over whether or not babies inside the womb are considered persons. The distinction that's made is that it requires personhood to be protected.

You're welcome to join Douglas in his unsupported assertions that there is no such thing as a human being inside the womb, but you two will be alone and incapable of providing any scientific or medical support for your position.
 
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RaymondG

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Raymond, you agree with Douglas' position? Here is Douglas' position:

1) A human being does not exist at any time inside the womb
2) The life growing inside the womb is of the same moral worth and value as cancer inside a human body
3) It would be completely moral for a woman to abort her baby at any point during her pregnancy so long as the baby has not left the womb yet. Meaning, even if she was a week past her due date, she could abort.

You believe that Raymond? Then what do you make of Luke 1:41, 44 - And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

How can you believe that there is not a human being inside the womb? John literally leaped for joy inside his mother's womb. You agree with Douglas that John, inside the womb was not a human being?

For the majority of the world, the abortion debate is NOT over when a human being comes into existence. That's basically settled science. The abortion debate is over whether or not babies inside the womb are considered persons. The distinction that's made is that it requires personhood to be protected.

You're welcome to join Douglas in his unsupported assertions that there is no such thing as a human being inside the womb, but you two will be alone and incapable of providing any scientific or medical support for your position.
Now you read what I said.....I was responding to one line mentioned in the post just two posts above yours.......This is the line you said no one agrees with and i said i did. You are adding extremes to sway the reader. you are trying to eliminate sound fair judgment by implying that you have to also believe all these extremes if you believe one point.

I believe your message would be better receive, if you respected the ability of all to reach fair conclusions on their own.
 
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