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Featured my take on abortion:

Discussion in 'Debates on Abortion' started by Ice Catholic, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. Ice Catholic

    Ice Catholic New Member

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    I Study Biotechnology , so i know some stuff about embryons.
    I am against abortion because it is considered murder, and since the baby has no choice, but to have a parasitical relationship to the mother until it is born, the baby could be considered sort of an Hostage to the mother. So not only she is killing a baby, she is also killing a hostage on life support.
    Anyway.
    The moment a Blastocyst is formed, it is just a multicelular "egg" or capsule . A Blastocyst is a mass of cells composed of 2 layers, a inner mass of stem cells, and a outer mass of cells that will transform into the placenta later.
    A Blastocys is not a embryo yet, it is still a mass of stem cells, which are cells that have no specific function yet. The Blastocyst will have to go trough a brief stage of growth so the Embryo can be formed from 3 types of Stem Cells that will originate 3 base types of tissues.
    During this stage, i cannot consider this to be murder, because it is not yet an human being. It HAS the potential of becoming one, but it is still a ball of cells.
    HOWEVER, once the blastocyst transforms into a embryo , which happens 4 weeks if not mistaken ( I can be, because i dont know the numbers by head), it is already considered a human creature, and it is a human creature in a "Hostage" relationship with the mother. Anything that enters the mother will also be absorbed into the child. So, by definition of MURDER, if the embryo stops living (which is already living, has a circualtory system already,etc), then it is dead. Now it can be considered murder if it was intentional ofcourse. There are many abortions that happen by accident, like falling ,etc.

    Now the best way to not abort is not getting pregnant, simply.
    And in case of rape, just have the baby and give it up to adoption, simple.
    The Lord commanded : You Shall Not Kill. So , if you do an abortion , the best thing you can do is confess, and repent , because if you don't, you know where you are going.
     
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  2. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    By whom?
     
  3. Ice Catholic

    Ice Catholic New Member

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  4. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    Oh yes? Where?
     
  5. football5680

    football5680 Well-Known Member

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    The penalty for hitting a pregnant woman and causing the death of her baby was the death sentence. Life for life, so God considered it murder.
     
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  6. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    Do you think selective quoting of scripture is really appropriate? Go read the whole section.
     
  7. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    Jesus was Jesus in Mary, as soon as Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb.

    If people are desiring to have children, they already are loving their children even before they conceive. In the earlier scriptures we can see how people of God understood that God had given them children, as soon as they had conceived.

    So, if a lady does not care for her unborn, why? And if she has not been brought up to know how to care for a baby and a child, this is a problem. Why does she not have the heart to care for her child?? And if she can't tell the difference between a man who is right for marriage and someone who is only about using her . . . why can she not tell the difference between someone who loves her and a man who does not know how to love???

    And if you hate a person, you already have committed murder > Matthew 5:21-22, 1 John 3:15. If you kill an unborn because of who you fear that child will become, you have also murdered that future person who you do not want in your life.

    About if you have a child of rape > I have heard that in some places there are laws which require the mother to bring her child to visit with the rapist since he is the father of the child. So, it might not be simple to give up the child for adoption. This, of course, does not make it ok to kill the child. I find it interesting how pro-choice people so want to be able to kill an unborn, but they are not very busy, it seems, with trying to get rapists executed or keep them from visiting with their victims; may be, then, there are ones . . . but not all . . . who want to keep rapists alive and with rights, so they have this as an excuse and to use for arguing and . . . deflection. If anyone would be worthy of death, it would be the rapist, not the unborn child.

    But, of course, Jesus died on the cross with hope for any evil person, at all. God is able to have my selfish personality die, so then I can become alive as a love person with Jesus and this in sharing with all God's children of His love. So, we need to live in His love which "hopes all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7), or else we ourselves could be aborted from real life of God's love.

    We can export what is really in us; if we are aborted from the eternal life of God's love, we can abort others, in one way or another. But in case we are "dead" (Ephesians 2:1-10, 1 Timothy 5:6), God is able to make us alive in His love. So, don't judge by how you are now, in case you have not become alive in God's all-loving love, but trust in Jesus and discover how we become with God, as His family tenderly sharing with one another and being there for each other.

    Yes, there are women who kill their unborn because they fear they will be abandoned by ones they depend on. But if people do not know how to love you . . . why kill your unborn in order to stay accepted with people who do not know how to love??? You can learn how to love, with your child >

    "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

    And you can become an example for ones who have failed you, forgive them, have hope for them.
     
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  8. Ice Catholic

    Ice Catholic New Member

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    and i dont even have to quote God , this is just pure common sense:
    Murdering is killing somebody.
    A Embryo (when it is past Blastocyst phase) Is a living human creature, therefore , by willingly ending his\her life, you are comiting murder.
    Of course my country is Portugal, and abortion is not considered murder, it is considered legal until a certain number of weeks (im not sure the exact number), but still, as christian i look above the laws of men, the laws of God come first.
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting Berean through and through Supporter

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    She is also held hostage if she has health problems during the pregnancy. She is also held hostage if she was not healthy enough to carry the child after pregnancy. She is also held hostage for the 9 months, then the following 18 or more years. It it's a boy, then about 25 more years. If the child fails to support it's own child, then mom gets care of that one an additional 18 years. Assuming that she is healthy enough to carry the child, and about half of the parasites are aborted for health reasons, without a known cause.

    Additionally, later age pregnancies and unhealthy mothers have caused the death rate due to pregnancy to climb in the US. It's not a big number who die, except for the dead mom, it's a factor for her.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  10. Ice Catholic

    Ice Catholic New Member

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    i wouldnt say that life begins at conception tho. I would say it starts when a blastocyst becomes an embryo. But either way, most pregnancies are detected during the embryonic phase so it would be murder if an abortion takes place.
    An embryo has all the basic characteristics of a human being:
    Genome, vascular system, and a basic nervous system
     
  11. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is there any other law of Moses were someone paid a monetary penalty if there was no loss to the other person?
     
  12. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Active Member

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    There is a verse somewhere (cant be bothered to look it up now), maybe Leviticus, that says if a person causes a woman to lose her baby they will pay up to a life for a life for the killing. I may look it up later when I have time and am ore inclined to.
     
  13. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    The passage being considered comes from Exodus. And what it says is that if men fight with each other and strike a pregnant woman who as a result gives birth; that if the child is not injured there will be a fine, but if the child is injured, then we have life for life. The life of the newly born child is considered just as morally valuable as the grown individual.

    Exodus 21:22
    - "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

    So that her fruit:
    Hebrew: יֶלֶד yeled
    The KJV translates Strongs H3206 in the following manner:child (72x), young man (7x), young
    ones(3x), sons (3x), boy (2x), fruit (1x), variant (1x).
    child, son, boy, offspring, youth
    1. child, son, boy
    2. child, children
    3. descendants
    4. youth

    Yeled is not miscarriage nor still birth, it's a live child.
    Is there a Hebrew word for miscarriage and stillborn? Yes and it is not Yeled.


    Exodus 23: KJV
    26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will
    fulfil.

    The above now in the Hebrew lexicon:
    שָׁכֹל shakol
    The KJV translates Strongs H7921 in the following manner:bereave (10x),barren (2x),
    childless(2x), cast young (2x), cast a calf (1x), lost children (1x),rob of children (1x), deprived
    (1x), misc (5x).

    שָׁכֹל shâkôl, shaw-kole'; a primitive root; properly, to miscarry, i.e. suffer abortion; by analogy, to
    bereave (literally or figuratively):—bereave (of children), barren, cast calf (fruit, young), be
    (make) childless, deprive, destroy, × expect, lose children, miscarry, rob of children, spoil.

    So we can see shakol is not used in Exodus 21:22ff.

    Yaled is alive; shakol is miscarriage.



     
  14. ConvictionofGod

    ConvictionofGod לא תרצח‎ (δεν θα μπορείτε να σκοτώσει) Supporter

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    correction: murdering is the unjustified killing of another person.
     
  15. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    When does life begin? When Adam was formed from the dust of the ground....Was he alive before God blew the Breathe of Life into His nostrils? How important is God's breathe if we say there is life regardless of whether God gives the breathe or not? Should we care or think about when a spirit connects to a body?

    Is it possible for God to send his breathe and spirit to the earth and a mother aborts and and God says...."Oh well, you wont get your chance now."???

    Can it be possible that when a spirit is sent to the earth and one child is aborted, it can go to another.....which may or may not be a better situation for the spirit........assuming God is not all-knowing and would send life to the wrong place.?

    I Have trust in God and just do not believe that the Life that God intends to live can be stopped by the likes of a human.

    For the record...I too am against Abortion......I just do not have any condemnation for those who arent. And I can see and understand both sides objectively.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  16. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why would there be a fine if there is no injury? Is there any other scripture were a fine is imposed if there is no loss?
     
  17. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    A fine is different to execution. A fine suggests the foetus has value (IF the father so deems), but it is clearly NOT the same value s that placed on an actual born person.
     
  18. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    It would seem that you're still not understanding the passage in question. If a pregnant woman is struck and the baby dies as a result, then the offending person also dies. Life for life. Clearly we see that the unborn child's life is on the same moral plane as the adult.
     
  19. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    No! Read it again, it's life for life, eye for an eye if the MOTHER dies, if ONLY the child dies, but the mother is fine, there's a fine to be paid, and ONLY if the father so deems. Execution =/= fine.
     
  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    [Staff edit].

    It is genocide, according to how I see that we can apply > Genesis 25:22-24. And in this scripture the unborn are called "children", in my Bible translation.

    God is the One who knows and has the say about who is in a person's womb. And He has been forming the unborn person; so the unborn person first is His, I would say :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2017 at 4:29 AM
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